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BiKenG

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Posts posted by BiKenG

  1. Regarding Ducati axle and wheel, how is the wheel located on the axle?

     

    On an NC30 the wheel is a snug fit over the enlarged boss next to the disc/drive pin flange, so the spacer and nut just hold it in place.

    The RC45 wheel is not so snug on the inner side, but the conical spacer is snug over the outer end of the axle and so locates the wheel.

     

    How do Ducati do it?

     

    From looking at measurements, it would appear that the wheel is actually quite loose on the axle and it is only the conical spacer that locates the wheel, centralising it and pushing it up against the flange, holding it in that central position by the clamping force of the nut. Not that different from the RC45 in fact, although the Ducati wheel is even looser on the axle as far as I can see.

     

    Is this how others see it? The only location of the Ducati's wheel is done by the conical spacer?

     

    BTW, what is the offset of the 1098 (6") wheel? Honda use a 19mm offset and the 916 (smaller axle) is 23mm, but what about those Ducs with the larger axle? What offset do they use? Same as for the smaller axle?

  2. I think Steen is very busy.

     

    The assembly I have here is also 80mm when pushed together. But the RC45 wheel and nut is about 67 mm thick which leaves about 13mm protruding beyond the wheel. The groove and lip at the end are about 7mm, so that means 5mm of spare thread. Seems to me that with the nut on and tight, only the groove and lip should be visible so the clip can be fitted. There should be no exposed thread. If nothing else, that would mean the nut can come loose out to the retaining clip and allow the wheel to slide 5mm side to side. This cannot be a good thing as it'll just be flopping around.

     

    I originally thought it was 7mm too long, but the measurements above indicate 5mm. So let's take the middle ground and I can't help but think the extension piece is about 6mm too long.

     

    I'm not knocking Steen here, the pieces are beautifully made. It just seems I must be missing something here.

  3. Another question about Steen's (VFRRR) conversion kit. I have one here and loosely inserted it into an NC35 axle. Strangely, it is quite loose. Doesn't rattle, but slides in and out. I thought they had to be push fit into the axle. Anyway...

     

    I then inserted it into an RC45 wheel and I cannot help but think it's nearly 8mm too long. If I hold the insert into the axle and spin the nut down until it starts to bind on the wheel, there's almost 8mm of thread protruding beyond the nut, before the outer lip with holes to take the pin. The whole threaded portion looks like it should be about 8mm shorter, otherwise it sticks out way too far.

     

    Anyone else found this? I cannot see why this is. The RC45 wheel is new and certainly not 'thinned' in any way. The axle is certainly not modified and the extension piece is how it was supplied. How can it end up being 8mm too long?

     

    Any ideas?

  4. Regarding Steen's (VFRRR) conversion pieces, anyone know for sure the materials they're made from. Steel and Al alloy I know, but exactly what alloys?

     

    The axle extension is very magnetic which suggests it's not stainless and Steen made no mention of this so it's likely to be mild steel. In which case, how is everyone who uses one actually protecting the metal? If left bare it will surely rust badly. Paint it?

     

    And what about the alloy nut. 7075 perhaps? Or what? Anyone know?

     

    Of course Steen knows, but he's kinda busy and I hoped someone else would know for sure.

  5. Oldish topic, but found it while trying to find some info about the Triumph rear wheel. Unfortunately none of the pictures posted by YoshiHNS can be seen, so perhaps someone could help.

     

    What is the offset of the Triumph (Sprint) 3 spoke wheel? I.e. the distance from the centre plane of the rim to the hub mounting surface. All the chain driven VFRs have a -19mm offset, but what offset is the Triumph wheel?

  6. 10 hours ago, sa1713 said:

    I have air, fuel, and spark at each plug.  Sidestand/neutral/bank angel sensors are functional...  Next step is to check the pulse generator. 

     

    Those sensors would stop the spark and/or fuel, so if you have those, the sensors are unlikely to be at fault. Likewise the pulse generator must be working.

    Is it firing at all or just simply turning over?

     

    Basically, if you have air, fuel, compression, spark, and they're occurring at the right time, the engine must run. So one of those factors must be missing or wrong.

     

    Do you have a clip-on strobe light? Really useful to help diagnose ignition/timing issues.

  7. 2 hours ago, GreginDenver said:

     

    Motorola MPX4115 MAP sensors are pretty cheap.  I always use the MPX4115 because it is their basic atmosphere model (as opposed to other MAP units designed to handle turbo or supercharger boosted engine MAP signals), they sense in a range from 115 kPa down to around 9 kPa.

     

    Good to know. Thanks for that. A typical Honda MAP sensor (I just checked for the RVT1000) is £256. So for the CBX, that would be prohibitive.

     

    I also have a VTR1000F FireStorm (er, Super Hawk in the US?) that I'd like to inject. So another project to keep me busy. Possibly do that before the CBX. Just see how everything else pans out.

  8. 2 hours ago, GreginDenver said:

     

    Did you go to Patrik's NC30 Fuel Injection project blog (as was suggested on page 1 of this thread)?  If "simplification" is your overall aim it's important to realize there are different areas of a motorcycle fuel injection project that can present as very, very complex.  If you take the time to read Patrik's NC30 blog you'll see how complex it was for him to adapt throttle bodies to the bike.  He has skills and equipment that I will never have (CNC machining, for one example, and he's highly mathematical). 

     

    So I choose to simplify by not attacking areas like the mechanical aspects of the throttle body (especially a throttle body assembly as complex as a Honda V4!), and instead I'm willing to suck up the punishment of lots and lots and lots of wiring and soldering.

     

    Yes, I've read most of it, but a power cut here prevented me from finishing it. I will go back and read the rest though. It has encouraged me to start looking again at adding CNC capability to my mill. That would be enormously helpful in so many ways. But I digress...

     

    I understand that modifying the TBs to suit won't be trivial, but Patrik and Durbahn both use the TBs from a totally different bike and then had to totally create their own maps etc. from scratch. I am currently of the opinion that using 5th Gen TBs will not actually be as difficult although I may change my mind once I start hacking them. :biggrin:

     

    However, if I can get the TBs to fit, the rest of the system is essentially off-the-shelf, just by using the 800 parts and it should even run like that with just minor tuning required with a PC. All that is a BIG advantage by using the VFR800 parts. I do have to add a Cam sensor, but that's been done before.

     

    Of course the first requirement is that I can get the TBs to fit and I'm waiting on a set of 5th Gens I can start work on. Currently I'm firmly of the opinion that it will be easier than modifying the carbs, but I guess I'll soon be finding out if I'm right or wrong on that. It's all good clean fun though.

  9. I see, so there's a MAP sensor for each cylinder. I have a funny feeling Honda MAP sensors are rather expensive, but I guess he's using a more cost effective sensor.

     

    All food for thought re the CBX, but is another reason for grafting the 800s injection onto the 750 as provided it can physically be done, then it's relatively simple as there's a ready made wiring harness with all the required sensors and just the one ECU module. No other ancillary electronics required. Well, apart from a Power Commander or equivalent. At least I assume it will need some tweaking, although just have to see on that once it's running.

  10. 7 hours ago, GreginDenver said:

    I've been building and riding Do-It-Yourself Fuel Injected motorcycles for about 10 years now.  One of my best efforts is my 1993 Suzuki GSF400.  Instead of trying to retrofit/modify a set of throttle bodies from another motorcycle I simply turned the GSF400's rack of Mikuni BST32SS carbs into fuel injection throttle bodies.  This keeps the fit and serviceability of the original setup which really helps in the areas of long-term ownership and maintenance.

     

    I did a little searching and found that the secondary injectors from a Kawasaki ZX-6R (the set that's mounted on the intake airbox) were a perfect match for the fueling needs of my GSF400's little 100cc displacement pistons.  So all I had to do was remove all of the excess plumbing and metal from the float bowl area of the Mikuni BST32SS carbs and get a receiving pocket machined into each of the four carb bodies (with the tip of each injector aiming up into the carb bore just beyond the throttle butterfly.  After some experimentation I removed the carbs vacuum operated diaphragms because performance was unaffected.

    ...

     

    Aha, I've been thinking along those lines too, using the VFR750's carbs and I believe an early Kawasaki 900/1000 (I forget which) had a similar injector rail with suitable injectors. I've not discounted it and will be looking into that and the MicroSquirt for a similar project to inject a CBX1000 (6 cylinder), but that's further down the line. For this VFR750 I kinda want to make it as Honda as possible, so priority will be to see if I can use the 800 parts. If I can't use those TBs, I'll look for alternative TBs and if that fails, then it's modify carb time and a different ECU.

     

    But it's always interesting to see what others are doing to inject their bikes, even more so with regard to my CBX project.

     

    How does the MS use MAP sensor output to detect engine position? If the MAP sensor is connected to all intakes, how does it know which pulse is for which cylinder?

     

    BTW, why did you choose the MS over say Motec?.

  11. 1 hour ago, JZH said:

    I sense another trip down the garden to my shed is imminent!

     

    The throttle bodies pictured were acquired solely to harvest their injectors, which were then professionally cleaned and used on my yellow 5th gen in California, so these TBs have no injectors.  If you want to try them with 6th gen injectors, feel free; I have no use for them, so you're welcome to them.  I'm happy to help your projects in any way I can.  Some of my spare parts made their way into lovely Rick Oliver's RC30/36 some years ago, so no pressure there!  (The bike's original injectors are still in California, sorry.)

     

    ISTR Dan from A&A Performance experimenting with 6th gen injectors on the Torocharger bike, but ultimately he decided the 5th gen injectors were fine.  That suggests that they can swap, but I don't remember the details, really.

     

    Btw, the RC36 carbs in that picture are from my FL; FR-V carbs are 2mm smaller, I think--and they are definitely different in many other ways (I had not realised that until I compared the set I have here with that picture.

     

    Ciao,

     

    Aha, first of all, yes those TBs will be perfect to try and fit, thanks, much appreciated.

     

    Secondly, very interested to hear what you say about the 3rd Gen carbs being bigger - music to my ears. Since 4th Gen rubbers are too small to accept the TBs, there's hope that 3rd Gen rubbers may be better, i.e. actually fit.

     

    I need to find a good (i.e. flexible) set of 3rd Gen rubbers and try to squeeze those TBs in.

  12. On 30/11/2017 at 8:58 AM, JZH said:

    For reference, here's a set of RC36 carbs next to a set of RC46 throttle bodies:

    20160705_091722x.thumb.jpg.b914a03fa19538b571168a7a135b0a41.jpg

     

    Ciao,

     

    Puzzling that despite what JZH's picture seems to show, those TBs on the right will NOT fit into the intake rubbers for the carbs on the left as the TBs are so much bigger. Really doesn't look that way in the photo. Mind you, I was trying it with 6th Gen. TBs. Could they be bigger?

     

    But it does explain from where I got my previous optimism about splitting the TBs. The 5th Gen. TBs as shown above are the ones I first thought about splitting and it looks entirely feasible. The 6th Gen. ones, not so, hence my more recent less optimistic, post. Not only are the castings less favourable to splitting, but also the upper intake connection to the airbox is siamesed on the 6th Gen, but separate on the 5th Gen. which is far preferable.  No reason to not use 5th Gen. TBs on this 750 project so I just need to find some 5th Gen. TBs to cut. Don't 'spose you want to sell yours John? :biggrin:

     

    As far as I know the 6th Gen got 8 point injectors but then upped it to 12 point in 2006. At least the parts list shows different part numbers for the injectors themselves which supports that. However how can one distinguish between TBs with 8 point injectors and the later TBs with 12 point injectors. Obviously counting the injector holes would be tricky, but is there some other way to identify TBs as early or later 6th Gen?

     

    One other question to which someone might know the answer - Is it possible to fit the later multipoint injectors into the 5th Gen. TBs? Usually the whole TB is swapped if you want the later injectors, but would they actually fit? I suspect not, but don't have both here to try it. Anyone know the answer?

  13. Taking a good look at the 800's TBs, the way they're cast is not how I remember from previously and separating them won't be as simple as I thought. May be impossible depending on if there's any internal cross passageways I cannot see. Hope not, but anyway I started looking at alternative TBs.

     

    First of all I discovered that the 929 FireBlade seems to have 2 pairs, just like all the other Hondas and not the 4 separate units as I have seen stated and as I mentioned in a previous post in response to Mohawk. So whoever wrote that is simply wrong.

     

    As Durbahn discovered, the GSX-R750 is a good candidate with 4 individual TBs. But at 45mm intake ID they'll make the rubber matching problem worse. Unfortunately, although the GSX-R600 uses smaller TBs that might fit nicely, they also use ECU controlled secondary butterflies and that's just not gonna work with the VFR.

     

    So nothing's falling into place at the moment:-(  Just have to keep looking.

  14. Fallen at the first hurdle unfortunately. It would appear the 800's throttle bodies are significantly larger than the 4th Gen carbs :-(

     

    There's no way that I can see the injection TB fitting into a 4th Gen intake rubber. I pushed hard but it's not even close. Also the internal shape is wrong as it partially obscures the actual injector. The 800's intake rubbers are shaped around the injector to not obscure the fuel pulses, but of course the RC36 intake rubbers don't have that.

     

    I also tried to fit the 800's intake rubbers onto the 4th Gen intakes. It's closer, but not ideal. They slip on very easily of course as they're basically too big and they don't grip the intakes at all. There's a mm or more of movement side to side - until you tighten the clamp screw. It is actually possible to squeeze the rubber onto the intake stubs. They're then quite firm although it is possible to twist them around if you grip them well and try hard enough. The stubs seem longer than the 800's as the rubbers are not snug up against the head. There's a gap. However, that wouldn't matter if the rubber can form a good tight seal onto the stubs. I think a better type of screw clip would have a better chance of getting a good seal. But I'm not sure of the long term implications of the rubber being compressed like that and whether any possible good seal would last.

     

    So, 4th Gen intake rubbers are a non starter (damn, just wasted £25 on them) but 6th Gen rubbers are a possibility, although not ideal. So the search is still on...

     

    Do any of the pervious carb models have a larger intake/carb diameter than the 4th Gen? That might help.

  15. What's the difference in the intakes of the VFR versions, i.e. the Gen 3 to 6?

     
    I'm pondering the possible fit of throttle bodies and intake rubbers. Have 800 TBs varied in size over the years? I know the injectors have changed a couple of times, but what about the intake sizes, have they altered at all?
     
    Likewise, did the carb size change between the 3rd and the 4th Gen bikes?
     
    I have some 800 TBs (late 5th Gen and a 6th Gen) and will soon have some 4th Gen intake rubbers to compare to. But I've no obvious way of knowing if there were any differences from the items I have, without buying one of everything of course.
     
    I suspect all the 800 have the same size intakes and likewise the RC36 models, but can anyone confirm or refute this?
  16. 16 hours ago, Mohawk said:

    Simpler to use GSXR TB's, they are seperate units on the late 90's ones, mounted like carbs on a rail, so would be better suited to fitting as replacements.

     

    I'm not convinced they would be simpler. I'd have more to do figuring out how to assemble them in the correct rigid layout. Besides, I really think the larger choke diameters would not work in my favour and require far more of a change to fuelling from a basic 800.

     

    Probably a better option would be to use those from a CBR900RRY (929). They are similarly separate units, 40mm and also from Honda :-)

     

    At the end of the day, I'll probably use whatever best suits the RC36's inlet tracts and rubbers.

  17. 8 hours ago, coupedupsubie said:

    Ken,

     

    As you mentioned having a welder and other tools to fabricate with, if you have a lathe you could possibly make up some adapters to go between the hose sizes. If the OD's have a large enough difference you could even look at offsetting the smaller side as much as possible to prevent splitting the RC46 throttle bodies. Pair that with some silicon hoses and it might work. Just a quick thought, someday I will have the tooling, space, and time to do builds like this.

     

    First step will be to find out if the 800's throttle body will fit the 750's intake rubbers. But I don't have the 750 engine to hand at the moment so it'll be a few days till I can do that.

     

    Another thought. The RC36 intakes changed size did they not, from 3rd to 4th Gen? Are the rubbers also different?

  18. 6 hours ago, The Phantom said:

    A member here was looking into doing this some years back, pretty sure they were trying to fit GSX-R throttle bodies to a 4th Gen. IIRC the topic petered out without the motor ever firing up.

     

    That's what Durbahn used, but he no doubt wanted power so the GSX-R's 45mm throttle bodies were appropriate. I always try to use Honda designated parts if possible and I have a spare set of 800 throttle bodies, so that's a big incentive to make use of those. :biggrin:

     

    One reason to NOT use those is that they are cast together in pairs which means trying to change their relative spacing would appear to be harder. But, on the other hand, the cast 'web' between each choke in a pair could be cut and then used as the mount on to which could then be bolted something to space them as required. Since these webs look kinda flat, that might open up the way to use some simple carbon fibre sheet cut to size which would be stiff enough and nice and light. Then something else between the spaced out pairs to suit the V and intake angle of the RC36 motor.

     

    A big plus is that with the 800's throttle bodies, injectors, ECU, sensors and wiring, it ought to run. A PC can then be used to clean up the ignition and fuelling. Simples :unsure:

     

    But still just tossing ideas around in my head at the moment.

  19. 1 hour ago, JZH said:

    Well, it's only 748cc vs 781/2cc, innit?

     

    Forget rubber, why not do something with silicone hoses?  Use some good clamps and I can't see the injectors going anywhere.

     

    Yes, I was kinda expecting that... I have now located all of my carbs in the shed, so I will have a look.  (The RC36-II set I mentioned earlier is missing one of the 16016-MZ2-E00 mixture screws.  At least I think that's the part number--TBC.)

     

     

    If the throttle bodies are close enough to the carb's diameter, it ought to be possible to just use the RC36 rubbers.

     

    That part number is I think wrong, but if you can let me know the correct part and I can look into getting one for you in exchange for the loan of the carbs in order to get it to first run.

  20. 5 hours ago, JZH said:

    For reference, here's a set of RC36 carbs next to a set of RC46 throttle bodies:

    ...

     

     

    Ah, so clearly the carbs are a larger bore than the injectors. Hmm. Durbahn used GSX-R 750 injectors which are larger and may therefore be better. But, I am more interested in mid range torque and ride-ability than outright power, so the smaller injectors might be a better bet. They flow enough for acceptable power on the 800, so really, they should be enough on this 750.

     

    Re-joining the bodies for the different spacing and angle will be one problem, but the intake rubbers will be another. Durbahn had some specially made. That'll be something to consider at a later date.

     

    In fact, if I use the throttle bodies with the same OD as the carbs, I could use the 750's original intake rubbers. You know the next question John. Could you possibly measure those ODs? How well would a throttle body fit in the 750 intake rubber?

     

    BTW, this is not a short term project. I also have several others I'm working on and this is more a case of as and when I get time. So don't expect rapid progress.

  21. 6 hours ago, Lorne said:

    BiKenG, I admire your optimism. The oe VFR800 ECU may be persnickety if it doesn't see everything normally connected - the instrument panel for example. To minimize had scratching, it seems prudent to avoid any unnecessary complications so deep-6 the Pc or other modifier 'til after you are able to fire it up. Ideally, you have a running donor bike to play around with before committing surgery.

     

    Camshafts rotate at half the speed of the crankshaft so that is probably a no-go. The cam sensor also requires accurate positioning. 

    Another task will be fitting the fuel pump into the 4th gens tank, along with the supply and return lines.

     

    Btw, the boys at Mighty Car Mods have fit FI to a lot of projects (none motorcycles, sadly) but they provide some context. They use aftermarket ECUs from Haltech which greatly simplifies tuning & set-up.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/mightycarmods  (look for parts 7 & 9 of Gramps the 11 Second Car) Actually if you have time watch all their videos.

    http://www.haltech.com/tech/

     

    Good luck, I look forward to your odyssey.

     

    The dash is really simple and the ECU doesn't care about whether it's connected or not. I've not decided on dash for this bike yet, but won't be OEM VFR.

     

    I'm building this from a separate engine and frame (that I already have), so I'll just buy the bits I need rather than butcher any existing bike.

     

    The FI system requires a CranK Position sensor and a CaM Position sensor. The former will be very accurate to determine the exact position of the crank. The latter will be far less so, but is required to establish on which part of the stroke the engine is on as that cannot be determined from the CKP sensor output which is used to provide the ignition timing. The ECU can simply control the timing of the spark relative to the CKP sensor output, but also knows when it's TDC and when it's top of the exhaust stroke from the CMP sensor output and in this way there's no need for any wasted spark.

     

    What I'm not sure about is how it decides when to open the injectors. That's less critical than ignition timing and could use the less accurate CMP sensor output, but I think it's more likely that the CMP sensor is only used to determine the stroke and it's the CKP sensor output that is used to accurately determine when to spark and/or squirt. However, to a certain extent it's irrelevant. There will need to be CMP sensor and I'll need to figure out how to add that. Durbahn's site will help there as he's done it for the RC30 and a 400.

     

    In any case, assuming the ignition pulse of the 750 can be used as the CKP sensor output the CMP sensor is the only one that needs to be added to engine.

     

    I was thinking of using an 800 fuel tank, which has an internal pump of course. Might drop straight on. Anyone tried this?

     

    I'm not imagining any of this will be simply swap and fit from other bikes. I WILL have to manufacture parts for the throttle bodies assembly and the cam will need welding etc, but I have the equipment.

     

    There are various ECU options if I don't go with the 800's. Durbahn used Motec and could provide ready made working maps to start from, but there are others, although probably have to start from scratch creating the maps. I still think the 800 ECU and a PC would be the simplest.

  22. 13 hours ago, bykemike said:

    I understand the why and wont ask that, myself, I would be thinking it might be more successful getting an FI engine from a later bike and installing the whole deal in the gen 4.

     

    I thought about and looked into that, but it wouldn't be trivial. Cut the S/A pivot boss off the back of the 800 engine for starters and then most of the mounting points don't line up so quite a lot of reworking the frame to make it fit. Even then you'd have to mess with the airbox, so no advantage there.

     

    But also, I like the idea of the 750 engine. Nicely symmetrical compared to the 800 and I think a fun project to inject it.

     

    Don't get me wrong about the 800 engine. I do like that also and have other projects going on involving a couple of those, so in some way, I also wanted this to be a 750 to differentiate it.

  23. I'm thinking about injecting an RC36.2 and hoped we could have a good technical discussion about it here.

     

    First of all:-

    I realise that the RC46 throttle bodies won't just drop on.

    Durbahn has injected an RC30 and a 400. However I believe he used the Motec system.

    I have also read (here?) of someone using MegaSquirt on a V4.

     

    But...

     

    It seems to me that the RC46 injection is way closer to what is required than either Motec or MegaSquirt and MUST be cheaper than either of those. So I'm pondering the possibility of modifying the RC46 throttle bodies to fit the RC36 and use the RC46 ECU, with a Dynojet PC or Rapid Bike module to 'tune' the ECU's delivery to suit the different motor, although I'm thinking that it probably would actually run without either. Not well enough to use, no doubt, but it would sure help development if you have something that runs.

     

    The throttle bodies will take a lot of modification, but that surely must be easier than trying to manufacture something from scratch. They'll need to be split apart, mounted in the correct relative position and suitable linkages and fuel pipes made. Tricky, but as I said, has to be easier than starting from scratch and there would be a readily available wiring harness too - RC46.

     

    Another very tricky task would be to add a Cam sensor probably requiring accurately positioning and welding something to a cam. However, maybe the existing output from the RC36's Ignition sensor could be used as the CranK Position sensor. Everything else is external and can be simply added to the bike, plugged into the RC46 wiring harness which would have all the right connectors. :smile:

     

    I notice that the 5th Gen FI system uses an atmospheric pressure (BARO) sensor, but that is no longer used on later VFR's, nor any other bikes I briefly checked. But if the ECU needs it and the wiring harness has the connection (yes to both), then the BARO sensor can be plugged in and used.

     

    So there's 3 major issues I see here.

     

    1. Modifying the RC46 throttle bodies to suit the RC36 intakes.

    2. Creating a Cam Position Sensor

    3. Using a Power Commander to modify the ECU's control sufficiently to suit this engine.

     

    I'm pretty sure 1. can be done. 2. can definitely be done, but I'm less sure about 3. I see no actual reason why not, but it would largely depend on the range of adjustment afforded by the add-on management module (PC or other).

     

    Please don't ask WHY? No point arguing about that. But apart from that, what do others think about this?

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