Solomoto

Been a long time since my last visit here, haven't been too active in riding the past few years so it's time to sell the VFR.

See here for the post.

Why deviate from OEM pads to start with? Honda (and most other OEM's) engineers their stuff to work and fit right; it may not always be the most premium material nor highest performance due to practical costs but is appropriate for the application, and tested to the nth degree because the manufacturer's reputation and liability is on the line.

The after market is usually just generic parts shoehorned to fit a particular bike without careful system considerations or testing. Brake pads and exhaust systems are perfect examples of this. The after market is also use at your own risk, they don't have any legal obligation to design and test to any particular engineering or safety regulations. I recall a couple years ago Recalcitrance on this site used an after market ride height adjuster for the rear suspension; after some miles the threaded link stripped out and dropped the back end of her bike onto the tire while riding on the freeway. She managed to get to bike off the freeway but that easily could have been a deadly failure. I doubt the vendor ever did any bona fide engineering and testing to ensure such a failure never occurred. Many after market vendors are fabricators, not engineers who perform rigorous analysis and design safety in their products. Almost anyone can fabricate, but few can engineer. Caveat emptor.

I recently had my bike serviced (under extended warranty) for an issue with blinking ABS and DCT clutch grabby-ness from a stop. After diagnostics, it was learned that the battery was worn after 4 years and couldn't maintain sufficient voltage at low rpm's. At first I was dubious that a simple battery change would make much difference given the complexity of the DCT system, but such a system is highly dependent on the electronically controlled actuators. Changing the battery made a huge difference and essentially resolved the problems.

Since your bike is a 2010, you may need to change the battery regardless, the low miles suggests the battery probably sat for long periods and may be sulfated as a result.

I believe that happens when the battery is low on charge.

This is true. A few months ago, my ABS light started to blink for 10sec after starting, then held steady as it should before moving. Along with the blinking ABS, my clutch engagement (DCT) was jerky for the initial engagement after starting the engine but then normal thereafter. Last month, this was diagnosed as a worn battery which would not hold proper charge nor maintain steady voltage. This made sense since my original battery was 4 years old. Once the battery was replaced, the ABS and DCT symptoms went away.

Hi fotodaddy,

While it is encouraging to hear from Honda about your dilemma, it is not good practice to post all of your direct communication on this or any forum. It can potentially sour any goodwill between you and the other party. Transactions of goodwill should be kept private lest it jeopardize future instances of goodwill. If Honda or any mfgr of goods sees its actions broadcast like this, it will be less inclined to do so in the future simply because it establishes the perception that this is now legal obligation for any such instance when in fact they are acting beyond their legal obligation. Furthermore, from a cultural perspective, the Japanese and most Asian cultures expect confidentiality in the business dealings. Violating their trust can scuttle the best of intentions. IMHO you would do well to keep a lid on it.

Here is a list of tires for your consideration in a thread I posted last year. It's not a review, just a list of options. I currently use the Metzler Z8's which now have 4K+ miles and perform quite admirably.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/71613-vfr1200-sport-touring-tire-list/

UPDATE

I finally got my shock back from Ohlins with the 1200 lb spring. It took me about 5 hours to install start to finish. I would be much quicker a 2nd time. I struggled to get the old shock out the bottom until I took weight off the fully extended rear wheel. Putting a barbell weight under the tire allowed the linkage to move out of the way so I could drop the shock. Installing the new shock was also a bit tricky. I'd recommend putting thin socks (as I did) or plastic bags over the preload adjuster and external reservoir so they don't get scraped passing through the swingarm.

I took the bike out for a quick ride last night after the installation and....WOW! What a difference. The vague feeling which gave me no confidence going into turns is totally gone. Also, it seems silky smooth. Going from 1024 lbs (stock) to 1200 lbs definitely hasn't hurt ride quality.

I wonder if the spring will settle any. The rear is sitting a little higher than I like. I had to remove all external preload and still could only get 30mm of sag with me on the bike (kitted). The bike alone gives only 8mm of sag.

It feels fantastic now (and ultimately that's what matters) but I'd rather have some external preload that I can dial out. I've found that when I get new tires (with higher centers) I often have to lower the rear slightly otherwise the handling can be a bit twitchy. I'm running on tires with about 4000 miles on them, so the rear is starting to square off.

Now, I wonder what difference a fork upgrade would make. :-)

G.

Hi Dobs,

I happen to live in San Jose also and I had Rob at Evolution Suspension set up my Penske 8983 and tune my forks. Originally I had 1200 lb/in. on my shock but for me that was too much, I had Rob install the stock VFR spring (1035 lb/in.) and this worked out just right for me. The rule of thumb I've found among tuners is 10mm free sag plus 25-30mm with rider for a total of 35-40mm total static sag. Unlike what a previous poster said, the slope of the spring force vs. displacement function requires 2 data points to determine the spring rate (or slope of the curve) which is why both free sag and static sag are needed to determine the spring rate.

For the forks, he adjusted the compression and rebound stack for general road sport riding, and the springs are now linear 1kg/mm vs. the original progressive. For your weight you might need 1.1kg/mm. Also, the stock sag was 48mm (for my weight), the internal preload was adjusted to give 40mm sag. Since this raised the front end ride height by 8mm compared to stock, I raised the fork stanchions by 8mm to restore the original ride height.

Once you get the internals tuned, then it's a matter of tuning the external compression and rebound to give the desired ride. Rebound has the most dynamic effect, too much rebound and the ride becomes very harsh but stable, too little rebound and the ride becomes wallowy or floaty with less control. According to basic tuning guideline from Penske, the easiest process is to separate the rebound and compression adjustments. First dial out rebound to minimum and compression to minimum. Find a straight road with moderate bumps and gradually increase compression damping until the initial hit starts to become noticeably sharp, then back off a click or two. The ride will be wallowy or floaty at this point without the rebound damping. Then gradually increase rebound damping until the floatyness stabilizes, too much rebound and you'll notice the ride start to become harsh (almost like too much compression). Next take it out to your favorite sweepers and check for stability, if it still feels wallowy, then dial in more rebound a click at a time. The same idea works for both front and rear. It will take a bit of experimentation to help distinguish the front from the rear response as sometimes what feels like the back end may be caused by the front end or vice versa. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the very useful info Solomoto. Do you mind me asking how much you weigh with gear?

I weigh about 160 lbs. ready to ride.

UPDATE

I finally got my shock back from Ohlins with the 1200 lb spring. It took me about 5 hours to install start to finish. I would be much quicker a 2nd time. I struggled to get the old shock out the bottom until I took weight off the fully extended rear wheel. Putting a barbell weight under the tire allowed the linkage to move out of the way so I could drop the shock. Installing the new shock was also a bit tricky. I'd recommend putting thin socks (as I did) or plastic bags over the preload adjuster and external reservoir so they don't get scraped passing through the swingarm.

I took the bike out for a quick ride last night after the installation and....WOW! What a difference. The vague feeling which gave me no confidence going into turns is totally gone. Also, it seems silky smooth. Going from 1024 lbs (stock) to 1200 lbs definitely hasn't hurt ride quality.

I wonder if the spring will settle any. The rear is sitting a little higher than I like. I had to remove all external preload and still could only get 30mm of sag with me on the bike (kitted). The bike alone gives only 8mm of sag.

It feels fantastic now (and ultimately that's what matters) but I'd rather have some external preload that I can dial out. I've found that when I get new tires (with higher centers) I often have to lower the rear slightly otherwise the handling can be a bit twitchy. I'm running on tires with about 4000 miles on them, so the rear is starting to square off.

Now, I wonder what difference a fork upgrade would make. :-)

G.

Hi Dobs,

I happen to live in San Jose also and I had Rob at Evolution Suspension set up my Penske 8983 and tune my forks. Originally I had 1200 lb/in. on my shock but for me that was too much, I had Rob install the stock VFR spring (1035 lb/in.) and this worked out just right for me. The rule of thumb I've found among tuners is 10mm free sag plus 25-30mm with rider for a total of 35-40mm total static sag. Unlike what a previous poster said, the slope of the spring force vs. displacement function requires 2 data points to determine the spring rate (or slope of the curve) which is why both free sag and static sag are needed to determine the spring rate.

For the forks, he adjusted the compression and rebound stack for general road sport riding, and the springs are now linear 1kg/mm vs. the original progressive. For your weight you might need 1.1kg/mm. Also, the stock sag was 48mm (for my weight), the internal preload was adjusted to give 40mm sag. Since this raised the front end ride height by 8mm compared to stock, I raised the fork stanchions by 8mm to restore the original ride height.

Once you get the internals tuned, then it's a matter of tuning the external compression and rebound to give the desired ride. Rebound has the most dynamic effect, too much rebound and the ride becomes very harsh but stable, too little rebound and the ride becomes wallowy or floaty with less control. According to basic tuning guideline from Penske, the easiest process is to separate the rebound and compression adjustments. First dial out rebound to minimum and compression to minimum. Find a straight road with moderate bumps and gradually increase compression damping until the initial hit starts to become noticeably sharp, then back off a click or two. The ride will be wallowy or floaty at this point without the rebound damping. Then gradually increase rebound damping until the floatyness stabilizes, too much rebound and you'll notice the ride start to become harsh (almost like too much compression). Next take it out to your favorite sweepers and check for stability, if it still feels wallowy, then dial in more rebound a click at a time. The same idea works for both front and rear. It will take a bit of experimentation to help distinguish the front from the rear response as sometimes what feels like the back end may be caused by the front end or vice versa. Hope this helps.

Looks like no 7th gen for me, cant believe they(Honda) are still having this probelm.

And another note i have notice over the years of riding the 6th gen that I can at anytime make mine have all of these problems. If I put too many throttle inputs into the ECU it does start to fail. But I have train myself not to confuse the ECU.

Instead of listening to second hand word of mouth, try it out for yourself before you write it off. Believing everything you read from a forum like this is akin to getting marriage counseling from your in-laws.

My bike originally had moderate surging at low rpms. After I had the 18K service, the bike suddenly began running almost as smoothly as a table top. The difference was so dramatic I asked if the mechanic had updated the ECU with a new flash image. Nope. All they did was disconnect the battery which was needed to do all the servicing. Apparently this resets or recalibrates certain settings in the EFI module. It has continued to remain as smooth as ever, now with 30K miles. I suggest doing the same as a cheap experiement, it just might eliminate all the aftermarket bandaids.

I just noticed that you were in the driveway of the Kiva Koffehouse along Hwy 12 in the Grand Staircase. I too stopped tbere on my recent trip but unfortunately it was on a Tuesday their only closure of the week. Did you happen to go inside? A very unique establishment built by a man with a taste for artistry. I wish I could have gone inside.

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Fantastic trip and photos! I recently (May) did a 2 week trip thru AZ, UT, CO, and NM from CA. I too stopped in the same spot as you did by Monument Valley on Hwy 163. Did you know that spot is a famous bit of movie trivia? That is the exact spot where Forrest Gump stops running and says "I'm pretty tired, I think I'll go home now" and turns around and walks down the hill.

I too attach the bars at the top of the fork tubes to elevate them, but this comes with caveat: if the clamps happens to be under clamped but still tight enough to hold them in place in normal riding, one grip potentially could suddenly swing forward under heavy breaking load. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the aftermath of such an occurrence.

I was at the Laguna Seca Corkscrew for WSBK some years ago when Doug Chandler lost his right grip (it broke off but same principle) under heaving braking, he went over the bars and his bike torpedoed Akira Yanagawa as he was turning into the corner. Very bad crash for both but especially for Yanagawa.

I've been contemplating having a custom spacer fabricated to prevent such a rotation but as it is I have to periodically check to ensure the bolts are tight.

Have fun, I did a 3500 mile solo trip in May thru UT, CO, NM, AZ from CA on my DCT.

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Here's an alternate perspective or theory on the power restriction in 1st and 2nd: The degree to which the actual throttle is restricted (and therefore HP output) below 5K rpm is a function of the rate at which the grip throttle is opened. I make the distinction between actual and grip throttle because of the VFR's throttle by wire. The tendency to spin up the rear wheel is partly a function of the time rate of change at which HP is delivered to the wheel, e.g. if a 30 HP change is delivered over a 1 second interval, the tire contact patch endures much greater acceleration forces than the same 30 HP change applied over say a 3 second interval. Obviously a lessor acceleration force will help prevent traction loss which is the assumed purpose of the flat spot.

Most dyno runs are made with the grip throttle whacked open at low rpm's and held until redline is reached. Doing this in 1st or 2nd gear triggers the drop out in power. I would be very curious to know if the flat spot is reduced or eliminated outright if the grip throttle is rolled on gradually. My seat of the pants experience seems to confirm this. When I do a gradual roll-on instead of a ham fisted opening, the flat spot feels absent and acceleration is linear. But in the same situation with a ham fisted opening, the engine deliberately falls flat until the magic 5K rpm. I've found that managing the throttle in this manner almost makes the flat spot a non-issue for me. Try it and see if it works for you.

Looks like Huntington Beach Honda is a Powerhouse dealer, same as Hollister Honda where I bought mine, which means they get volume pricing and access to inventory not available to ordinary dealers. People in the bay area (on SBR forum) have a fondness for Hollister Honda which gave extra discounts to the local forum members. Glad you got a great deal.

Congrats on the new bike. Just curious, what dealer did you buy from?

I guess I should add my own experiences, I've more than 27K miles in the two years since new.

The DCT for '12 has a slightly different behavior when in auto shift mode compared to the '10, when doing a manual trigger shift during auto mode it will revert back to auto mode after a few seconds whereas the '10 will remain in manual mode after a manual shift. In this regard, the '12 mimics the behavior found in some DCT cars.

Overall, I've come to the conclusion that I would only want to buy DCT equipped bikes in the future as they become more prevalent. I haven't missed conventional manual shifting for a microsecond and when I get on my 98 VFR, I'm struck by how agricultural it is in comparison. I'd compare it to electric vs. kick starting; when electric starters first came on the scene the old die hards dissed it, but once you experienced electric you wonder how you had managed with kick starting before. One major by-product of the DCT is the fact that I no longer develop an aching left wrist after a long day in the saddle especially the twisties. On my 98 VFR, late in the day I start grimacing during each clutch cycle and often avoid doing clutch shifting when I'm moving which is not the best for mechanical longevity.

As mentioned above, I use manual mode 100% of the time since it just suits my tastes. Drive mode is too pedestrian and Sport mode is too aggressive when I'm not in the twisties so manual suits me best and I've come to just use it all the time. I especially love the auto throttle blipping during downshifting at speed which eliminates the need for a slipper clutch. The DCT at low rpm's is a bit mechanical and chatty, but it comes into it's own above 4K rpm and above 5K rpm nothing comes close to the buttery smooth, uninterrupted acceleration, and the auto blip on downshifting is positively mesmerizing.

The only nits I have are:

a) when the engine is cold the initial clutch engagement can be a bit grabby but only for the first engagement, thereafter it is smooth. It may be because the hydraulic circuits haven't completely come up to pressure. To get around this I sometimes will hold the front brake and apply the throttle until the rear end rises a bit, then let off after a second or two, this always eliminates that initial grabbiness when cold.

b) when the engine is hot, there are some occasions when the clutch engagement is somewhat non-linear and depends on how much throttle is applied from a stop. Applying a "sporty" amount of throttle is no problem but a small to moderate amount of throttle at slow take off speed is a little hesitant at times. I think the algorithm may be trying to figure out if you want to just doddle as in a u-turn or get up and go. I suspect this may be more of a throttling issue than a clutch issue, although they are both intertwined during clutch engagement.

So there you have it, my 0.02 cents worth. I suggest taking a test ride before you decide. Since you are in NorCal, I suggest visiting Hollister Honda (which used to be a Honda PowerHouse until just recently). They offer test rides on most bikes but since the recent change to a multiple brand dealer, give them a call to confirm first.

...... The DCT in manual is still an automatic with a paddle shifter. No difference.

So if the DCT in manual mode is still an "automatic", why then does it not shift automatically? What does "automatic" refer to if not shifting?

I have a 2012 manual clutch....it has the EFI map updated from the 2010, but other than that they are about the same. The DCT just makes me think of it as a $15,000.00 scooter. i'm smart enough to manage my own shift points..... Hope this helps.

Actually this comment is not very helpful as it shows you don't understand what DCT is all about. Yes it has auto mode if one chooses, but manual mode is there for the purpose you stated. I personally use manual mode 100% of the time.

Try a local radiator repair shop, there should be plenty in your local area.

I was at a local dealer today and they had a 2012, the blue looks good. MSRP was unchanged from the 2010 manual trans. The seat cover is new, less slippery than before.

I can not find a ram moun for my 1200F. Any ideas?

Another user informed me that RAM-B-342U would fit.

http://www.rammount....85/Default.aspx

I have one of those, don't waste your time or money on it. The hex drive is far too small to tighten properly and even when it becomes tight it is never secure. Mine would always swivel with the GPS mounted.

Since I dont know your entire history of statements on this board, I could not have assumed otherwise. Your description of the problem offered no clarity of understanding the issue at face value, hence the "lecture".

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I've mentioned elsewhere that I typically get about 44mpg avg and 47mpg hwy. I don't ride like 23yo. so that might have something to do with it. I can expect the tank to go dry at about 210-215 miles which has actually happened to me once but that is just what my mpg avg x 4.9gal works out to.

One interesting note: During my recent road trip, I was in southern CO riding from Durango to Alamosa and over this stretch which covers about 180 miles, I used only 3.3g which works out to 55mpg. I can only assume that the higher elevation decreases wind resistance significantly enough to be noticeable, plus I also think I had somewhat of a tailwind. Either way I was amazed at the slow drop in the gas gauge, and this was with hard bags to boot.