jasonsmith

I recently had my stator go with close to 50k kmh on my 07. After searching around for options I thought I'd try Custom Rewind and I'm quite happy I did.

All three stator segments were going to ground and they were all reading around .5 ohms. On run up at idle two of the three were only around 10v AC, one was around 20v AC. Not much of a change at 5k rpm.

I called CR and spoke with Kirk who quoted me $100 for a full rebuild with whatever mods they do to make it run cooler. I mailed it on June 3rd, it arrived Friday the 6th, they had it done and mailed on the following Tuesday. Kirk made of point of telling me that they would get it done quick as a bike sitting in the garage in the summer is no good, that's awesome! I picked it up this morning and got this:

I was very happy with the end product, looked quite nice.

Install went fine, feeding the cable on removal was much more difficult than feeding it back through on install. I did build up the end of the connector with tape to form a tapered end so when pulling it through it wouldn't catch on anything. I should say that all my connectors looked excellent, no signs of burning, melting or corrosion so all I did was re and re the stator. End result:

I'm very happy knowing that the install isn't too hard and that for only $100 there's a hope that it will be a good product. Kirk at Custom Rewind was a super guy, very patient and helpful.

I guess a lot of it depends on your riding position and where the windstream is getting you in the first place. I recently stuck on the MRA screen as well and it is doing the job nicely. I used to get almost all clean air to my helmet except for the lower chin. Now I get wind all over but much slower. Zero wind to the upper body now too which is where the most comfort is at. I can see that being in all clean air may be nice but will it still be good after 400miles.

Very clean, looks great.

You are correct, I totally got that backwards, the force will increase a lot quicker with less air. I still don't think the air does anything other than controlling the bottoming of the forks though. The air needs to be compressed for it to do anything past the springs and valving that are already in there. I think it has very little to do with the "balance" of the bike but is a great tool for tuning the bottom of your fork travel and brake feel.

edit: added "and valving".

How come when I pull a stoppie, so all the weight is on the fork, it doesn't bottom out? The combined weight of me and the VFR is 350kg, say the front springs are 0.9 (stock is 0.63) then I need 194mm-16mm(preload) of travel or 350/(136*2) (120mm fork travel +16mm preload * 2 parallel springs)) = 1.3kg/mm springs. What role does the air chamber play here? Seems to me it is very significant and I do not see the need to have full range of springs in very small increments.

Anyone that can share some insight on this?

Your actual weight on the forks when you do a stoppie is dependent on the angle of your stoppie and the inertia that you built up prior to your stoppie as well as a bunch of other dynamic factors. It can't be calculated that easy in my opinion.

Your air chamber upon your fork compression compresses, just like in hydraulics. If you have enough air to compress to a higher level, the force of the air on the surface area of your oil in your shock combined with the spring pressure can easily overcome the minor weight of you and bike. The less air the less it will compress upon fork compression the less it will fight back. The more air the more it will compress and the more it will fight back upon compression.

This thread to me has been mostly about the "balance" of a bike more so than tuning per se, but being such an awesome thread it may be a good idea to talk about the air a little bit.

Recently installed a Daugherty rebuilt shock (a stock 5th gen shock with a 1050#/in spring and gold valving), and I must say that I am very happy with the results. I had my front-end race teched a while back (.90 springs and gold valves) and the back-end was lacking. After a 200 mile ride today, my back has been transformed. It keeps the line well, and I felt confident all day. When I set up the rear suspension sag, I got a rider sag of 31mm and a free sag of 9mm with three turns of the preload adjuster (from all the way out) with 3/4 full tank of gas. I may lower the preload to see how it feels, but for now, I'm pleased. By the way, I weigh 185 lbs., but when I ordered the shock to be rebuilt by Jamie, I weighed 173-ish. Based on the desired sag numbers, I'm thinking that a 1050#/in spring is good for weights between 170-190 lbs. +/- 5 lbs.

Sounds good! :fing02:

I just installed a Penske on my street Vtec with a 1150 lb spring. With 10mm of pre-load I got 32-33mm Rider sag(in gear) with 9.5mm of free sag, pretty happy with those numbers and I weigh 185-190 at the moment!

Finally changed my fork fluid after 40k miles! :blink:

Now I just need to got out on it and work of rear shock settings. :wheel:

My Ohlins has the a 1050 lb spring and I think I got 10/32mm on it?

BR

.90/1050 for 185-190 sounds bang on.

oh I so need to put my 1200# in.... just don't wanna take it apart again. I think I'll loose 15 lbs, may be easier.

I sure wish there was a nicely laid out spreadsheet that showed what parts work with what. There seems to be healthy assortment of options for USD forks but all the other bits and what works with what.... :mellow:

MadFrog if you did your fork valving yourself you may have noticed that RaceTech's compression valving recommendations covers a few different spring rates based on the style of riding. The rebound valving is usually set to the spring but as Kevin stated above just throw in a set of less stiff springs and see how it feels. I'm not sure what oil weight your currently using but you could always thin it out a bit if the ride isn't what you want and you really don't want to take it apart again. I'm running .95kg and I am 220lbs, they are perfect for me.

I'm the same as Jason. 220lbs with no gear. I got an Ohlins rear shock with a 19.36Kg (1085lbs) spring. When I first installed the shock with everything backed out. I had 9mm free sag and 39mm rider sag. I had 9 turns on the adjuster to get 7mm free sag, and 35mm rider sag. After reading this thread, I don't feel I was too far off with my spring choice. You all agree?

Yes, you are right in range. Maybe slightly low on the spring rate, but close enough to not spend another $100 on another spring. Unlike Jason who has a 1200lb to slap on his, I'd like to see what numbers he gets after that change. :rolleyes:

I weigh 190 and us the same 19kg spring.

BR

I got my shock back after the leak and Elka did good by me. Quick free service. I stuck it back in with the 1100# and got 35mm with 9mm free. I also checked the numbers with my bags on and loaded and only lost 3mm of sag. 3 clicks cured that on the pre-loaded.

I'll put the 1200# in at the end of the month Maybe and most likely keep it in. Right now the ride is amazingly awesome, can't believe it's so nice after a 28% increase in spring rate. Good valving makes all the difference.

One question I always ask myself when I see one of these threads is, are the VTEC forks really that bad? I find the swap to upside downs with full adjustments very intriguing.

Three words - BRAKES, BRAKES, BRAKES...

VFR brakes are fine, until you try serious brakes. All the other benefits of the USD fork swap (increased stiffness, lower unsprung weight, closer tolerances reducing play, more adjustability, better selection of aftermarket upgrades, good looks...) are just extra benefits :wheel:

Sold!!!! I'm going to blame this all on you just so you know.

One question I always ask myself when I see one of these threads is, are the VTEC forks really that bad? I find the swap to upside downs with full adjustments very intriguing.

Here is a table that I've made using the calculations I've come up with:

Rider Weight Range vs. Shock Spring Rate (lb/in)

110-145lb = 1100lb/in

145-180lb = 1150lb/in

180-210lb = 1200lb/in

210-245lb = 1250lb/in

245-280lb = 1300lb/in

To be specific, a 250lb rider calculates to 1270lb/in. Since you can't buy a spring with that rate, you have to select the closest one available. I typically go up, in this case to 1300lb/in. There are other factors that play into it as well. Hopefully this gives you an idea!

JD if I take your 1270# and divide that by 250 I get 5.08. If I take that 5.08 and x by my 220# I get a 1117.6 spring which is very very close to being right. I think 1250# would be right for me for about 30mm rider sag. Also if I take the average Honda designed rider of 170# and x 5.08 I get 863# spring which is very close to what Honda seems to have calculated. 5.08 kinda seems like a magic number but it doesn't follow the rest of the numbers on your table.

Curious, what rider sag number is your target?

Me - 220lbs no gear. I wear full textile top to bottom. 07 RWB VFR

Parts

Elka 3-Way with remote pre-load - Rear spring rate - 1100lb or 19.6kg (STOCK 15.3kg) 28% increase.

FRSP S3732095 RT Front Fork Spring 36.7x34.5x315 .95kg from RaceTech (STOCK .74kg) with valving (see below) to compensate for the increased spring rate. 28% increase.

RaceTech

G2-R Gold Valve Kit - G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit

FMGV S2040G

Fork Rebound HFR Gold Valve Kit-Racing (Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve)

FRGV SR2001

Stock Oil Weight = Honda SS-8 (10wt)

New Oil Weight = Maxima 5wt HP Fork Oil (RaceTech recommended US1 which is 2.5wt - 5wt from what I can tell)

Numbers

(with full gear, 3/4 full tank)...

Front:

Sag - 35 mm (3 lines exposed on the pre-load adjuster)

Free Sag - 15mm, down 7mm.

Rear:

Sag - 35 mm (23 out of 52 available clicks in on the pre-load)

Free Sag - 7mm (With a 1200# rear spring I would guess my free sag could be increased to 15mm or so at 35mm rider sag)

Base on my weight of 250 pound ....

I guess I am just glad GP is doing my rear Penske Shock too.....

Dan

Dan,

Unless GP suspension happens to be using the one and maybe only accurate VFR spring rate calculator and comes up with at least a 1200lb rear spring rate, It will be wrong IMO and you won't be able to achieve the numbers you yourself posted for Free & Rider Sag.

If they come up with something light like a 900lb spring and re-valve the Penske for it, the valving will be off by the time you get around to installing the correct and much heavier spring. :sleep:

You know the "Transformed Wow!" thread is one of the best threads going for info. Why don't we maybe add some setups to the front page or somewhere else that are working. We have the 3 of us so far with numbers that are 98% dialed in.

So besides trial and error there seem to be nothing for the do-it-yourself unless you use RaceTech or Sonic....Interesting

Dan

That is true, but really you have a bunch of people here with setups that can get you into the ball park. And yes RaceTech's calculator is busted.

Well here are a couple but as BR stated above they can't be trusted 100%.

RaceTech

02-09 VFR - http://old.racetech.com/evalving/SpringRateCalculation/dirtspring.asp?brand=Honda&yr=02-09&ml=VFR800&formuse=form1&SpringType=Fork&bikeid=261

Sonic

http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/calculate_spring_rate.php

Also as per these numbers that Dan posted my current 1100# spring is bang on. 35mm with 7mm free.

Jason,

From what I'm understanding so far is that yes 7mm free sag might be acceptable, but for street use and running 35mm of rider sag, I think we/you should also be running more Free sag(towards the higher end of scale).

I think Ohlins calls for 10-20 free sag for street use, I run 5-10mm free on the Race bike w/25mm rider sag.

The reality is that your bike should feel great as is, but may work even better with more free sag like 10-15mm. This will take a stiffer spring, why not just slap the 1200lb on there and check your numbers. :fing02:

BR

I'll for sure throw in the 1200# Kevin but I thought since were in a suspension playing mood that I would ride the 1100# and get a "feel" so when I switch to the 1200# I can actually say that it made a difference, and "this is what it did for me". If you think the 7mm is unsafe for the street then I can change to the 1200# asap or go to about 37mm. The 1100# felt good and not too firm so I need to be able to confirm with myself that when I put in the 1200# it isn't going to make it more firm than what I would like.

When replacing the bolt in the bottom of the forks, do I need to replace the copper washer or reuse the existing one? Opinions? :unsure: Looking at replacing fluid in the near future.

mine stayed stuck on the fork so I left it and reused it. It's all good.

You know one thing that we don't seem to be talking about is the bike height in relation to each end. I noticed when I installed my shock it was a bit taller at first than stock and it loaded the front end quite a bit more than being in the what I think is stock position now. My free sag numbers changed considerably after the minor adjustment. When were chasing millimeters in the quest of supreme balance should we also be assuring that front to back things are copacetic? I know the manual states the height of the forks but what about the rear?

I would call Elka and get them to send you a 1200lb spring min. or install one free for you, I guarantee your Sag #'s and bike will be vastly improved!

I don't agree.

When I installed the Elka (900# spring, and I weigh about 190), the sag was PERFECT without me touching anything. If anything, the spring and/or damping are too firm, as confirmed by our local Ohlins expert, who'd be one of the top road/race suspension experts in the world.

MD and I are about the same weight right now. The numbers don't lie though... If I can only get 35mm of rider sag with only 7mm of free sag then for me to get more rider sag and not loose my free sag I must go to a higher spring rate. What is your rider and free sag if you don't mind me asking?

Hmmm... that's a good point. IIRC, I didn't measure the free sag, only the rider sag, which was between 30 and 35mm. I'd have to measure to find out what the free sag is - I'll do it tonight.

It's interesting (or perhaps not...) how much things have to do with "feel". When I first fitted the Elka, it felt SO much better (firmer, more controlled) than the Showa, especially in rutted corners. It also made the front end feel very wallowy in comparison. Fitting some 0.95 springs and heavier weight oil made the front feel less overwhelmed, and the cornering was superb, and very precise, especially on Avon Storms. However, even with Racetech gold valves and the front end properly set up, it was awful on rough roads at about 40-50 mph, and gave me such a workout I would've ended up with armpump on a long road. It was OK at lower speeds and great at higher speeds thouhg.

Now with 0.90 springs in the forks and appropriate revalving, it feels plush and much more pleasant to ride, but I've lost that scalpel-like cornering, and it makes the rear end feel harsh in comparison. I guess you can't have a compliant ride and great handling, unless maybe it's on a lighter bike. :angry:

Measure up that free sag my friend, it is the "tell" so to speak if you have the correct spring rate or not. If you have 30-35mm of rider sag I would bet you can walk over to your bike right now (on the side stand) and give it a tug on the rear end it most likely won't have any movement. I have .95kg's in my setup and it's perfect so I would agree that maybe for your 190# it was too stiff. Again the numbers are telling the tale for me, I have 35mm rider and 15mm free in the front which means I could probably get 32mm rider and 10mm or so free which is also very good. I am confident that my front is setup as it should be.

What valving do you and did you have in the front? Compression and rebound or just compression?

I am just getting more confused now. I picked up a Elka on the Super Group Buy 1.0. On my 5th Gen I went with a 3 way with Hydrolic preload. I spec'ed the rear shock with me being 200# naked. I wanted it firm but responsive(not harsh) and I have a full Givi set up with a Wingrack that I tour with. The Givi set up is not on except for long trips. I usually have a Givi hard tail bag right over the tail light. The Tech @ Elka emailed me to verify my weight and set up

Vlad called me and let me know what spring they put on my rear shock and its a 900# spring.

Sorry Vlad, must of missed Jasons name when we spoke, and thanks Jason for the link.

My rear seems really soft as I read thru all these threads. Especially since I am around 220 at this point.

I can guarantee you that it is too soft my friend. I specifically told Elka to put an 1100# in the rear hoping to match the front end work. I got .95kg springs in the front and that setup for my weight (also 220lbs naked :fing02: ) is PERFECT. As the smart suspension dudes have already mentioned based off my sag #'s my rear is slightly too soft still and I agree with them. It feels great but based on the numbers the suspension is quite "Balanced" and that is the whole point if this exercise for me. Also as mentioned above changing the spring out is no big deal providing that the valving in the shock can handle the extra spring rate. Give Elka a call and see if upping the spring rate will be an issue.

We know my rear is too soft because I am short on free sag (7mm) due to having to dial in pre-load (23 clicks) to get to my desired 35mm of rider sag. I would guess that if you tried to get to 35mm of rider sag you would have 0 free sag and your pre-load would be fully cranked.

This thread is all about "Balance". I know you were looking to get some stuff for the front, PM me. You should do the same to the front as you do to the rear. Changing springs alone in the front without valving won't yield that great of a result either since you should most likely go to .95kg's as well.

I was scared about increasing the spring rates and getting a stiff ride but realized that if the valving is done correctly then the ride will be firmer but not stiff if you know what I mean. I took mine out for spin with this setup and it felt awesome. Firm (responsive) but not stiff or harsh, even over the construction area's that I deliberately aimed for.

I just actually finished pulling my shock, 1hr, record time for me. Elka didn't position the reservoir line correctly so it was forcing itself on a wiring bundle before exiting out of the sub-frame area. I adjusted it as per their instructions but now it's leaking and won't stop. Calling Elka tomorrow to see what they will do for me. I will most likely get them to change my spring to a 1200# if I have to send it in.

This suspension tinkering is a roller coaster ride at best. It can be a pain in the rear, but it's fun to take the bike apart and even more fun riding it the way it should have been built in the first place.

I hear ya Pete, I agree that I could move up a notch in the rear but the only thing I am concerned with is going to stiff. My goal all along was to get 35mm sag front and back. I guess I could go to 1200# in the back and still get 35mm but I will have more free sag then correct. My guess would be that it would land about in the same area as the front 15mm or so. Right now it feels super, It's not too stiff but it's firm to the responsive side.

Funny thing is, Elka didn't position a line correctly. After dumping the nitrogen, moving the line to where it needed to be, charging the nitrogen it won't stop leaking. :fing02: So...I need to take the shock out tomorrow and if am going to change the spring now is the time I guess.

So the question is.. is 15mm free sag okay cause if I go to a 1200# in the rear I will be 15mm free in the front and back? I don't want a stiff ride, I can't stress that enough. Or will going from 35mm sag to 30-32mm free sag not make much of difference in the ride. I don't want stiff, did I say that already.

EDIT: after thinking about it Pete I think I may upgrade the rear some. Then I'll adjust the sag to around 30-32mm if I can. If I tried that with the rear right now it would top out or have next to little free sag. Curious if 1200# is the right number though.

Bumping the spring rate up is going to decrease your free sag to less than the current 9mm.

BTW, here are Ohlins recommendations on sag, just another take on it.

Static Fr: 15-30mm, R: 10-20mm

Rider Fr: 35-50mm, R: 25-40mm

I have 23 clicks on the rear pre-load which is about 8mm or so of artificial height (negative free sag) at the shock which translates to more at the hub where I was measuring from. If I go with a stiffer spring I won't need as much pre-load. If I didn't have any pre-load then yes It would decrease my free sag but in this case I think it will actually give me some more room. (please correct me before Monday if I am wrong ) As per Ohlins recommendations though I am almost bang on... hummm

Jason:

Kevin and I have hashed this spring thing to death over the last year. We have both came to the same conclusion and that is that spring rates are probably the most overlooked and ignored factor in setting up a bike. And I guess the surprising thing about all of it is that springs really aren't all that expensive (if you go to Hoerr) and if you have a Penske or similar shock, changing the spring is not that big a deal.

Just my opinion, but in looking at your numbers, I think your rear spring is still just a tad soft. A 1200# sounds like it would put you dead on the money.

Remember that a spring is a spring is a spring. As long as it is dimensionally correct, it doesn't matter if you buy it from an automotive high performance shop or a motorcycle suspension wizard. The difference is the price you pay each for the same exact spring from the same exact manufacturer. The guys at Hoerr (pronounced Hare BTW) are telling me that more and more motorcycle guys are wising up and buying from them.

Pete

I hear ya Pete, I agree that I could move up a notch in the rear but the only thing I am concerned with is going to stiff. My goal all along was to get 35mm sag front and back. I guess I could go to 1200# in the back and still get 35mm but I will have more free sag then correct. My guess would be that it would land about in the same area as the front 15mm or so. Right now it feels super, It's not too stiff but it's firm to the responsive side.

Funny thing is, Elka didn't position a line correctly. After dumping the nitrogen, moving the line to where it needed to be, charging the nitrogen it won't stop leaking. :biggrin: So...I need to take the shock out tomorrow and if am going to change the spring now is the time I guess.

So the question is.. is 15mm free sag okay cause if I go to a 1200# in the rear I will be 15mm free in the front and back? I don't want a stiff ride, I can't stress that enough. Or will going from 35mm sag to 30-32mm free sag not make much of difference in the ride. I don't want stiff, did I say that already.

EDIT: after thinking about it Pete I think I may upgrade the rear some. Then I'll adjust the sag to around 30-32mm if I can. If I tried that with the rear right now it would top out or have next to little free sag. Curious if 1200# is the right number though.

COMPLETION REPORT

Specs

Me - 220lbs no gear. I wear full textile top to bottom.

My Suspension Preference - slightly to the plush side. I could have gone with 1.0kg and maybe an 1150lbs rear spring but I didn't want a "firm" ride. Valving was setup accordingly as well. I also have room built in to loose weight without causing too much firmness in the ride.

Parts

Elka 3-Way with remote pre-load - Rear spring rate - 1100lb or 19.6kg (STOCK 15.3kg) 28% increase.

FRSP S3732095 RT Front Fork Spring 36.7x34.5x315 .95kg from RaceTech (STOCK .74kg) with valving (see below) to compensate for the increased spring rate. 28% increase.

RaceTech

G2-R Gold Valve Kit - G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit

FMGV S2040G

Fork Rebound HFR Gold Valve Kit-Racing (Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve)

FRGV SR2001

Stock Oil Weight = Honda SS-8 (10wt)

New Oil Weight = Maxima 5wt HP Fork Oil (RaceTech recommended US1 which is 2.5wt - 5wt from what I can tell)

Well all the bits arrived and they are all in. I tried to do it without taking the forks off but the oil lock piece at the bottom of the fork caused some grief. I couldn't get the cartridge to seat so couldn't get the bolt back in, none the less taking the forks off added another 10 min so it wasn't a big deal.

So the numbers (with full gear on)...

Rear - 35mm sag in the rear with 9mm free sag.

Front - 35mm sag with 22mm free sag... is that okay or is the spring to stiff...? It can't be to stiff, considering that RaceTech actually wants a 1kg+ spring for my 220lbs. I was having some stiction related number changing but I'm pretty sure I got decently reliable numbers.

So... is 20-22mm free sag okay?

I posted the above quote in a different thread yesterday but considering this is about overall balance I thought it was best here.

After yesterday's numbers I adjusted my shock to lower the bikes height back to a "stockish" level. I have no idea what the stock height actually is and/or where to measure it, if anyone knows....

So after decreasing the height of the rear and subsequently unloading the forks a bit I got the following numbers (with gear, 3/4 full tank)...

Front:

Sag - 35 mm (3 lines exposed on the pre-load adjuster)

Free Sag - 15mm, down 7mm.

Rear:

Sag - 35 mm (23 out of 52 available clicks in on the pre-load)

Free Sag - 7mm, down 2mm.

I can live with those numbers.

A big thanks to all and especially Kevin who created this thread and put me on the right path. The bike is balanced as far as I can tell in the first go and I am happy. Now to spend the summer tweaking the dials :fing02:

On the VTEC and the 5th gen, that drain bolt isn't in such a convenient location as on the F4i forks... it's on the upside face of the inside the axle housing, so you have to pull the front wheel off and remove the pinch bolt(s) completely to access the bolt that holds all the fork internals in place... I have never needed an impact wrench to get this bolt out, but a friend of mine did bugger his altogether, which means getting a new (or second hand) internal cartridge...

But never fear, it is doable without removing the forks.. just a wee bit more complicated than for the F4i... but hey, removing the front wheel is as easy as dropping a fart...

Obviously you won't get all the old fork oil out but I guess it's better than not changing the oil ever...

I use a jack under the headers to support the bike without the wheel.

Actually the VFR & F4i forks are exactly the same design as far as bolt location, the only difference is that the VFR uses a smaller bolt size than the F4i. Still no need to pull the wheel, just remove the axle (& pinch bolt if needed) and you have full access to the bolts in the bottom of the forks.

Also no reason not be able to flush every bit of old oil from the tubes when there empty and use compress air to blow out any remaining flushing fluid that might still be there. :fing02:

Easy, simple, quick! Unless you need to replace seals or tube bushings there's no reason to pull the forks or any bodywork! :goofy:

Would I be correct by saying the internal rod for the f4i is hollow and the vfr 6thgen is solid?

My rod was hollow. I know because oil was constantly dripping out of it all over my garage floor. :mad: