toro1

If the blower stops, there is zero airflow and the motor stops running. Unless you are MadMax with the last of the V8 interceptors and that magical supercharger nob on the shifter!

Wouldnt the air flow from the engine be able to still rotate the blades. Just like how wind going through fan blades (thats turned off).

Yes, you could run it without the belt attached. The outlet of the supercharger has 1.5" ID hole, and it can pull air past the impeller blades. If you really wanted to bypass the blower, you can always just unhook the tubing from the outlet, too. The question now becomes, why?

The way this system is set-up, while cruising or under part throttle conditions, it's just like having a stock bike as the boost is bypassed and there's virtually no parasitic load from the supercharger. In other words, ride it normal and it will get the same fuel mileage as stock.

In the past, the big roots blowers and earlier centrifugals didn't run any type of bypass, so essentially they were always compressing air and doing work (and sapping power from the engine). With the bypass, the impeller spins in a vacuum, doing no work, thus the power required to keep the roller-friction gearbox and small impeller spinning is minimal to say the least.

It's not like a fan, its an impeller of a centrifugal pump, there is not that much area for the air to pass through as it works off of pressure (boost). IF the bike did run it would not be very well....At all. And the engine, no matter how hard it could "suck" would ever turn the impeller on a supercharger, as they can easily have an impeller speed of 50,000RPM.

I too highly doubt the impeller would turn, and remember, this unit spins to 150,000 RPM! If the bike was run without the blower and nothing else changed, the mapping would be off and it certainly wouldn't be more efficient than running the supercharger at all times.

I was wondering about this "FI" suddenly showing up! Did you get it sorted ot? do you know where the bug was? How about Sprockets for this kit, wil there be bigger front sprocket included in the kit?

Oh yeah, that was sorted a while ago. The light came on due to the MAP sensor seeing positive pressure (that is, boost). No sprocket change necessary, though I currently run the bike with -1 front/+2 rear, which makes the front end very light, very often. :goofy:

I can only hope that the individuals that committed to buying a Torocharger will follow through. There obviously has been an enormous amount of time and effort in fine tuning this "product". Don't let the man down.

Well, no one has really committed to anything yet. I just saw demand coming from all over the place and thought I'd give it a shot. Despite having an excellent hp/$ ratio, it's not going to be a cheap kit, but then again, you get what you pay for. The 5th-gen was developed first as that is the bike I own, but there is obviously more business in the 6th-gen marketplace.

I look at this upgrade in the following manner: if you love your bike (like I do) -- the way it rides, the comfort it has, the uniqueness that comes with having a V4, gear driven cams (or VTEC), & a single sided swingarm, the exhaust note to die for -- and find yourself wanting the power that the current big boys have, this is the best, most affordable route to go. Even with a good trade-in or sale price, adding a supercharger to your current ride is still cheaper than buying new or slightly used, and you get to keep the bike you know and love.

Obviously this is not a mod for everyone, as quite a few riders are more than happy with their bike's performance. Rather, this is for the riders who want something different, something more. It will not net you better fuel mileage, it will not improve your handling, and it will not transform your VFR into a GP bike, but it will put the biggest, stupidest grin on your face every time you twist the throttle, and that, to me, is what it's all about.

I've gotta say, Steve's bike is really clean and quite a looker -- he's done a great job very tastefully modding it. He was also nice enough to let me take it for a spin, and being the first 6th-gen I've ever ridden, I can now add my own input to the 5th vs 6th-gen debate.

Granted, I didn't spend too much time on it, but during my short jaunt, I found the non-PC enhanced VTEC to be a non-issue. The sound changed, and the bike moves faster, but it wasn't a jarring experience and certainly not a deal breaker. Also, as I've read before, the suspension on the 6th-gen bikes is superior to the 5th, and it certainly didn't feel as heavy as it would seem to be on paper. Overall, I liked it a lot. It's still a VFR, after all.

Looking at your turbo bracket I'd subtract the triangle cut out for lightnest and add the metal back for

strength... this beautiful machined aluminum piece looks crank prone to me in that junction...

That's 0.500" thick 7075, with generous corner radii. If that bracket cracks, then something has gone incredibly wrong.

Wow! fantastic machining. those parts look great and robust. I was wondering whether you considered using CF/Composite for some of these, like the intake lower box you show here. Would it come out cheaper than doing this all in machined aluminum billet? There seems to be a lot of machining labor time and material with those bigger/more complicated billet parts.

Beck

95 VFR

Believe it or not Beck, it is still cheaper to machine those parts out of aluminum than it is out of CF/composite or to have it cast, unless of course I start selling vast quantities. Plus, who said I wasn't making certain parts out of carbon fiber?...

Is that plenum for stage two, or is that still to come??!?!

John, that plenum was designed for both "stages" as it can accept an intercooler or simply the intake hat. I had to do quite a bit of design work to figure out an airbox that would perform a double function like that, but I think it's going to work out great. Plus, it will let an existing customer in the field upgrade their kit, if they ever want to, without having to buy different parts.

This thread has gone on for so long it has become boring. There has been good solid innovation when something new is posted then another long delay before the next installment. Gets to the road-going prototype then the longest delay of all. I could not imagine what was taking so long since it all seemed just fine. Since it was mainly cnc all Toro needed to do was stick in another chunc of ally, register the job center & press Go to make more. Then he teased us with a photo of the intercooler.

Now he shows those exquisite plenums. I do a bit of cnc occasionally and appreciate the workmanship. Those chamfers on the edges are a ballache to do but it makes the job stand out. Exquisite work there Toro but get this thing done already.

Don't agree with BLS. You have cut out unfunctional material around the neutral axis. Have to acknowledge that vibration induced cracking may develop.

Sorry to disappoint, Ralph. I still have to work in order to afford this development, thus my time is stretched thin. Plus, every part (and I mean every single part) of the first prototype has been redesigned for this kit. I refuse to offer a subpar product to anyone, and that meant tweaking of what I had already done.

Again, that cut-out portion of the bracket has the same bending resistance as the lower portion of the bracket and even greater torsional rigidity. I can't forsee it ever becoming a problem as it is already over-engineered.

Also, as far as the ETA for the kits is concerned, wait until I get the bike running again. I hate making promises I can't keep...

Still waiting........ :fing02:

Fine John, I wanted to keep this a surprise until I got everything anodized, but you now have left me no choice...

prototype_pics.jpg

prototype_pics2.jpg

prototype_pics3.jpg

prototype_pics4.jpg

I have been really really busy lately.

Wow. 100,000 views.

:rolleyes:

Thanks everybody -- I promise some fun things in the next 3 weeks.

BLS, those triples are things of beauty & grace.

I second that opinion. Another fun material to machine is titanium -- drills and endmills love titanium.

If magnesium is not coated, yes, it eats away over time from the elements. I have certainly noticed this on the unpainted areas of my front wheel.

Hey guys, sorry I haven't posted here lately (lotsa work + big decisions = lost time). I'll try to answer some questions for you...

The development period has been extended due to forces out of my control. While the kit has been completely designed & engineered, I'm still awaiting key components needed to get the bike running again. It's always been my intent to update progress once I had enough to show you all, and I still intend to do just that, so stay patient.

In terms of power, I don't want to stick my foot in my mouth here, but I expect the updated kit to put down an honest 150hp at the wheel (depending on exhaust choice & dyno, of course). Brandon, the Busa will kill this bike in the torque department, but the power-to-weight ratio should be quite close. In the real world, the bike never feels underpowered. Even lugging it in 6th gear, it feels like it's a gear down and power is at the ready. It will instantly loft the front wheel from any rpm in 2nd gear, and comes up with ease in 3rd (granted, I do have steeper than stock gearing, but I could never do the things I can do now with the stock setup).

John, the beefier clutch springs have been installed, and while the lever pull is tougher than stock, it's not too bad. I can't report yet on how much better it performs with them installed, though.

Nymbyss, believe me, I was not trying to pull a wheelie in that video as my camera was precariously mounted. Nevertheless, the huge bump in power caused the front end to rise like it did. Oh, and my speedometer has been calibrated with the speedohealer, so what you see is not fudged by gearing. The acceleration is so much fun to experience since the boost never stops building -- where with the stock setup the power plateaus and falls off, the supercharged setup gives the sensation of neverending power. It's addicting.

I really hope to have some nice new pictures to show in the upcoming weeks, so until then, everybody have fun riding (because I know I won't be...:rolleyes:)

For anyone wondering about the price, remember this -- the supercharger itself is close to $2000, and there are over 25 different parts being CNC'd, with the total number of machined parts numbering at least twice that. Throw in the hardware, anodizing, filters, o-rings, etc. etc, and then a tiny bit for me, and you can start to see where the expense is coming from.

I could make this kit cheaper by outsourcing parts to China, but I personally don't believe in doing that and very much like to support the local shops. I can guarantee that you will never once have to worry about the quality of this kit, and I have invested far too many engineering hours for it to be anything but perfect.

Just remember that you get what you pay for, and in this case, that means a 50% power boost.

Holy WOW! So I've been away from the forum for a while and this is what happens when I'm gone!!! TORO how do I get on the list? 2004 VFR waiting for a Torosupercharger.... and the owner is a little stoked at the idea too. Has a price point been discussed? Time line for manufacturing? Let me know if you need my personal info to secure a kit.

Price point: Unsure of that right now (if I have to ballpark it, plan on price landing somewhere between $4-6k, with a possible discount for the initial run of kits)

Timeframe: I hope to have my bike up and running & the first 'experimental' kit out within the next 1-2 months -- production 5th-gen kits will follow shortly after that, and once I can get my hands on a 6th-gen, that kit will follow as well.

Just keep you eyes peeled here for more info regarding progress/pricing. This is going to be the ultimate bolt-on you can purchase for your VFR.

Toro, I read recently that CBR1100XX injectors could be used. Did you look into this?

HP of the XX was 137 from the factory, seems close to what you are putting out.

Rob, the Blackbird injectors would be perfect for this application. The problem is that I can't get them at a realistic price unless I buy vast quantities of them directly from Keihin (basically acting as an OEM). I've figured out a great solution for the Stage 1 kit, and have a good idea of how to fuel the Stage 2 kit as well.

Now, if anyone has a connection/stockpile of Blackbird/S2000 injectors, we need to talk...

Compressor AND Turbo!!!! :thumbsup:

Well, considering a single Rotrex can support up to 600hp, how fast would you like to go?

From working on my supercharger project and designing Harley open primary belt drives, I know how difficult this process is. My question is this -- how did you figure out the ideal center distance for the 30T/76T combo? Tensioning is so key with these drives, and after talking to Gates engineers several times, I know that they almost never recommend fixed center distances.

The pitch length of the 172T belt is 74.488" and the pitch length of your 30T/76T combo with a center distance of 25.630" (651mm) is 74.605", thus you must be preloading the belt a certain amount. Gates has special formulas for computing the tension -- did you use these in determining the center distance?

The part that bugs me about the belt drive is the varying tension in the belt as the suspension moves up and down. I'm guessing most manufacturers that do this set the tension to be ideal when an 1xx-lb. rider is on the bike, and any time the suspension moves, it varies slightly from this ideal figure. I also believe that Buell uses a spring loaded belt tensioner on their bikes, located on the slack side of the belt (which can be seen here, and the patent is here). I know Gates does not recommend using outside idlers on ribbed surface Poly Chain belts, so I'm not sure how Harley gets away with this one. They also do not recommend using spring loaded tensioners.

Anyway, here is the actual PolyChain manual. Pertinent engineering data begins on page 40. If you have not yet contacted Gates, I suggest you do. It's a pain to get a hold of their engineers, but once you do, they know their stuff (I can personally recommend Jack Timmerman).

Best of luck, as you don't need to give up hope yet. :thumbsup:

Seb & Kev, your guesses might be closer than you realize...

The 6th-gen will have its very own kit developed for it. In no way, shape, or form will I try to just slap on a 5th-gen kit and market it for VTEC bikes. The success of this kit is attributed to thousandths of an inch (and in some cases, tenths) accuracy and I fully plan on obtaining a bike to design a kit around.

Many parts are the same, but far too many are different: obviously the fairing is changed, but did you know the throttle body is different? How about the valve covers? The frame is slightly tweaked and the big coils are gone. All this means that some of the parts I have already designed will need to be redesigned, though the majority of parts will interchange.

A Power Commander is an absolute necessity. If you do not already own one, you will have to buy one to use this kit. Also, I'm really not too concerned about VTEC. Remember this, for the majority of the time spent riding your bike (and especially while cruising), the engine sees only vacuum, thus the standard tune is only slightly modified to work with the supercharger. In the same way that tuning can smooth out the VTEC transition, so can tuning help nullify the VTEC effect with the blower.

With the purchase of a kit, a customer will receive a fuel map 90% optimized for their bike. Much like the predetermined fuel maps that come with a Power Commander, the fuel map I provide will be solid enough that further tuning is really more of an option. These fuel maps are tuned with real-world miles, not just strapped down to a dyno in a closed room. To do this, an actual 6th-gen bike will be used to fine-tune the fuel mapping and make sure that a bike with one of my kits will perform out of the box.

All this will come after I introduce the 5th-gen kit, however, but it should not be long after that.

Okay. Alright.

I can tell some folks are getting anxious. I'm still very much involved in this project and quite honestly, the majority of the big design hurdles have been cleared. Machining of the updated parts should start quite soon, and once that's done, all there will be left to do is test the thing.

Speaking of parts, something showed up here the other day. Not quite sure what it is, but maybe it can be used in the kit somehow...

mystery_object1.jpg

mystery_object2.jpg

These things have a bunch of fins with holes in the center...who knows what they're used for.

I also found these files on my hard drive, not sure if they can be of any use, but they sure are interesting looking.

preview?.gif

Just a few more months guys...

eeerrrr... uummm... well?????? 5th gen kit please

Oh it's coming. Basically, I've ironed out the parts of the kit that needed redesign, and I'm working on some cool features that will put this thing over the top, so just wait my friends - just wait. I can assure you that you will like what you see.

I'm probably going to need another month to get all the details finalized -- after that, well, hopefully this will all turn to reality.

The instructions provided with the kit will be super clear on what to do during the install. Like I said before, you will need certain tools and you will have to be able drain the fluids from the bike (including the gas) to do this job, and there is fairing clearancing required. If by glancing at the instructions you feel hesitant about any steps and you do not have someone to help you, I would suggest taking it to a shop to get it done properly. But really, it is quite easy to install the whole system by yourself.

Also, the modifications I spoke of serve to enhance the durability of the supercharger, to promote even greater rideability and fuel consumption, and improve manufacturability. I have been riding this bike since August, and there have been zero hiccups with the engine or supercharger, just insane amounts of power (as in, punch it from a cruise in 3rd gear and directly control how much sky you see, for as long as you like, by the twisting of your right hand).

I want this to be the highest quality kit possible, without any bugs, hassles, or problems for the user. The refinements I am making now will hopefully meet this goal, along with making the entire kit easier to produce (and easier to upgrade :salesman:).

I'm wondering about difficulty or ease of install. I'm sure I'd need some help with some stuff.

Honestly, if you are able to change your own oil & spark plugs, or clean your air filter, you can do this install. You will need certain tools (like a torque wrench, metric allen wrenches, sockets of all sorts -- I will have a tool list), and a Honda shop manual is highly recommended, but this kit is truly nothing more than unbolting things and bolting new things back up. The only "fabrication" involved is the minor trimming of the fairing panel, and anybody with a steady hand and a file can do that job.

Just a thought, I'm not sure how you're planning on configuring the kit, but maybe set something up that doesn't include the actual supercharger. From a financing perspective, you won't be putting your cashflow into an inventory of actual blowers, you could just spec out the unit required. Then a group buy could potentially be set up with rotrex.

...it's likely that the largest expense would be the blower itself.

The blower is by far the most expensive component. While it is indeed true that I get a price break from Rotrex depending on the number of units sold, it's not that big of a discount. I was planning on doing something similar to what you have described, though.

I've been thinking about the best way to go about pricing this kit (at least initially) for a little while now. John is absolutely right in that the more kits I move, the cheaper I can sell them for -- machining costs and the superchargers themselves drop greatly in price as the number of kits sold goes up.

I think I might end up trying a modified group buy; that is, for 2 weeks or so, there would be a sign-up sheet, and depending on how many people have committed to it, a price break would follow. So if three people sign up, it would be full price. Ten people might drop it to 5% off, 50 people might make it 15% off, etc. etc. This is just an idea at this point -- I'll worry about the specifics later as I have slightly more pressing matters to worry about right now.

Boy, this just keeps going, huh? I've read the kneeslider myself on numerous occasions.

Just thought I'd clarify some things. First, Bailey and I decided to trim the thread down to it's present size as it had grown to mammoth, gargantuan proportions (30 pages, 889 replies) and was taking up just a bit of space on the ole server. I have the entire thread backed up, so if any info is ever needed from it, I'm sure there's some way to make it accessible again.

As Dan has said, I am still very much involved in this process and would like nothing more than to make this supercharger kit a successful, realistic option for all '98-up VFR owners. Not a day goes by that I am not toiling away in the lab to make this kit better, faster, stronger. I have a few suprises in store as well, so anyone interested in adapting this to your bike and picking up 50 ponies along the way, be patient. When I have updates, you will absolutely know about them.

Also, as far as potential buyers are concerned, I'm very hesitiant to throw a price out there until I know for sure the final configuration of the kit, but take a look around the web at other supercharger/turbo kits for bikes and cars. Chances are that this one will end up priced somewhere in that ballpark, so if that's something you can financially manage, stay tuned.

Think about it this way: a supercharger system for a bike you know and love is going to be a whole lot cheaper than buying a new bike, and the bike you know and love will just end up giving you even more to love.

And who doesn't want some more love? :goofy:

--Dan

PS - You guys rock. You were a driving force behind getting this completed the first time, and you're the driving force behind getting this completed the second time (and hopefully, many times after that...)

:thumbsup:

Stock the VF1KR was 122 at the rear wheels (?). If I take it to a expert, 140 is easy. But the torque is massive.

Just came across this and thought about your project. Here's the bike's description:

1985 Honda VF1000R SC16 with DRP stage 3 cams, ported heads with race springs and titanium retainers, K&N filter, Dynojet kit, ignition 3 degrees advanced.

So, yeah, it's pretty serious.

I had a chance to pop the bike on the dyno today, as I was very curious to see how it would perform fully faired and with the new pipe installed (instead of the Staintune). What resulted is as follows:

per Speed...

per Engine RPM...

comparison vs. N/A bike #1 (my bike pre supercharger)...

comparison vs. N/A bike #2 (my buddy's '99)...

Just imagine if I can intercool this setup and turn up the boost another 2 psi...

By the way, my offer is still on if anyone wants to meet up Sunday.

Alright everybody. It's been a little while since my last update, but I wanted to acquire some pictures before I added another post.

The bike is officially "done" (for now, anyway). The fairing fits perfectly and the bike is quite civilized. Take a gander at some completed pictures below:

DSCF5110small.jpg

DSCF5111small.jpg

DSCF5127small.jpg

DSCF5120small.jpg

DSCF5136small.jpg

DSCF5131small.jpg

DSCF5134small.jpg

OK, here's the good news: I am going to produce supercharger kits. The 5th gen will be first, followed shortly (I hope) by the 6th gens. You can rest assured that by the time these kits are released, they will be completely debugged and professional in every regard. I know what works and what doesn't, which leads me to the bad news.

After discussing this kit with others who have far more experience (and connections) than I, and from my own personal experience with the bike, some changes are going to be made to certain key components of the kit, mainly the drive, intake, and fueling systems. What this means is that until I get these things ironed out, production will be on hold.

However, I will of course keep you all posted with my progress, and when it's all said and done, expect even better ridability, fuel economy, and durability, with likely an extra 15 ponies to boot. This is the real deal folks. Anyone who wants to take it for a spin before I start breaking it down again, let me know. Maybe we can have a local meet some Saturday or Sunday this fall...

The bottom line: for anyone interested in taking their VFR to a whole 'nother level, now, more than ever, stay tuned (and stay patient :thumbsup:!).

Last night I decided to test out a very basic camera mount on the bike. What results is a very poor quality video (but a video, nonetheless) with lots of wind noise, shaking, and youtube video artifacts. I'll try to upload it later with a higher quality file and see if it comes out clearer. Anyway, this is the last on-bike vid I'm going to take until I get the fairings back on.

This was simply a very slow roll on in 2nd gear (with full throttle from 7000rpm on up), full throttle in 3rd, then letting off shifting into 4th and cruising away through 6th. Watch the boost gauge in the lower right -- when it shoots up, you know I'm on the throttle. It actually hits ~9psi the first time I nail it, and just goes to show how the bike never stops pulling through the rev range. More to come, but for now, enjoy.

Preliminary Dyno Testing

New vs. old (I only took the bike to ~11400rpm in this pull, while the original run was maxxed at 12500rpm, hence the discrepancy, but notice how similar the operating conditions are):

This one is in actual engine rpm:

As you might notice, the dyno has been fixed -- turned out to be some minor glitches with the Winpep software & a bad power supply. The torque curve is flat as a pancake from 8000 on, hovering at the 63-65lb-ft mark, with over 50lb-ft available from 5500 & up (note: I did not have a torque curve for the before run, so I cannot compare the two side by side without interpolation). The air/fuel curve looks pretty good for no dyno tuning -- I'll just richen it up some in the high r's.

I put the Staintune pipe back on for testing since my shorty is completely unproven in the power production department.

Also, my bike in the before run had the following things done: PCII with map dyno-optimized for 93 octane, K&N filter, Staintune slip-on, ceramic coated headers, intake snorkel removed.

My buddy's '99 has a K&N, Staintune, PCII with 87 octane map, and the intake snorkel removed, and his bike pulled 95hp on this same dyno.

With some extra tuning and a few more r's, I'm sure I can get a some more ponies out of it, but all in all, it runs very well at WOT and pulls incredibly hard. This bike is a great compromise between being able to commute at 45 mph with no drama, and being able to lift the front tire in 4th gear -- it's all in how much you twist your right wrist. No unwanted boost spikes, no 7psi when you're trying to manuever in the parking lot, it just feels like any other 800...until you want it to go faster, which it will with ease.

Videos still to come.

OH. MY. GOODNESS. GRACIOUS.

This is all I can say. VFRs were never supposed to have this much power, but boy-oh-boy does the chassis handle it well!!

I don't know if you guys can tell, but I'm quite pumped. I went out for a 35 mile ride on some nice smooth backroads with no traffic, and decided to test the upper rpm range out for the first time. WOOOHOOOO!

Let's just say that at 10000rpm the bike is pulling ~6.25psi, and at 11000 it jumps to 7.25psi, which is right where I wanted it to land. No pinging, no blown engine, no blown head gasket, just the sweet sweet sound of the rotrex spinning at full tilt and the short 'psst' of the BOV in-between shifts. The acceleration is remarkable. Breathtaking. Can you say 3rd gear power wheelies? On a VFR??

What does this all mean power-wise? Well Fixer, I think this bike is going to come very close to your gix's power numbers -- I'll find out tomorrow when I hopefully strap it on the dyno and get some preliminary runs in. I can't believe how good the fueling is in the upper rpm range. Actually, the fueling is quite good everywhere, except for a lower rpm 10% throttle stumble/surge that I still need to iron out, but beyond that, this bike runs terrific.

I was literally having a hard time keeping the front end on the ground in 2nd with the throttle pinned past 7 grand -- the thing just puuuullllllllllllls. I am seriously contemplating changing the gearing around since 6th gear now feels like 4th, and I find the bike tacked up quite often! Not to mention that 1-2 shift coming awfully quickly...

I weigh 220lbs -- a 150lb rider would not know what to do with themselves on this bike.

On a side note, whenever I take it up around 10000rpm, the FI light pops on. The bike still rides exactly the same, but the idle climbs up to 1400rpm from its normal 1200rpm. Once I turn the bike off & on again, it resets. I had previous error codes in the computer, so I can't gather much from that as of yet, but anyone have an idea what could be going on? The bike runs exactly the same, with the only difference being a slightly higher idle.

Okay, hopefully by tomorrow I'll have some numbers for you all, but until then, just try imagining almost 7psi right in the powerband of the engine. MMMMMMmmmmm.