toro1

Hi all,

Machining the plates right now. I hope to have them completed today and sent down for anodizing first thing next week. Everyone who ordered will get a shipping notification when they are ready to go!

--Dan

John, I looked and looked for similar problems online, and I found a decent number of people who have nearly identical problems to you, but they were never solved. I did come across this thread which might be of interest, though.

Also, have you checked all the fuses? One guy I found traced his starting problem to a bad fuse pertaining to the HISS system.

Did you pull any plug to see if it was wet? I'm starting to wonder if something isn't connected properly with either the pump assembly or the fuel rail / fuel lines. Obviously the pump is wired correctly (and sounds great, btw), but something is still amiss here. Who did your injector cleaning? They didn't insert some kind of protective cap into the injector entry, did they?

Red is 6th-gen, green is 5th-gen. 5th-gen has a better cam drive and seamless power delivery, 6th-gen has a beefier clutch and an almost (but not quite) seamless power delivery. 6th-gen makes more power than the 5th-gen across the board (except between 5500-6500 rpm), but the heavier weight negates some of that extra performance. You can't lose either way, but swapping engines would not be worth the effort in my opinion.

If you want some wild colors, Black Gold sells House of Kolors in spray cans. I painted my RC51 front fender using their products and the paint was an absolutely perfect match. As has already been said, prep and finishing work is everything, so if you're willing to invest the time, you can do it.

Also, if you have a friend (or a friend of a friend) who does paint work, see what they'll quote you for the whole job -- it might end up being the only way to go (I had my entire bike painted for $250, including materials).

SO... How do I get more torque from 5K to 8K on the clock.

1. Should I source a stock pipe and dump the two brothers?

2. Do I need to fiddle with the air box?

3. Should I have the engine remapped?

1) No, keep the pipe. Any aftermarket pipe will give you more power across the entire powerband; once the gases have joined in the collector, you want to get them out as quickly and efficiently as possible. Do not confuse backpressure with exhaust gas velocity -- backpressure = loss of energy, and the stock pipe will just add power robbing backpressure. When I added the Staintune on my bike back in the day, power did not drop at any point in the powerband.

2) You can try if you want, but the gains are very minimal. Remove the snorkel if you want a deeper intake roar, but altering the actual airbox itself too far from stock can be very detrimental to performance.

3) Yes. A good map will smooth out power delivery and allow you to richen up the lean spots in the powerband, which in turn frees up some ponies and makes the bike feel more responsive and powerful.

If you want more bottom end grunt, and you still have the stock gearing, swap the sprockets to a -1/+2 setup. -- it will really wake the bike up. There is only so much 781cc can do for a 500+lb bike, so unless you want to add forced induction or nitrous, you'll never get the feeling of big-bike torque. Your old 750 had different cams, gearing, and a much lower rpm limit, so comparing 5000rpm on both bikes is not apples to apples. The VFR likes to rev out to 12k, so use gearing to make better use of the power available.

Hello,I've got an old 1986 750 FG,I saw the article on supercharging was wondering if its possible to do this with a second hand turbocharger from a car(me being from the UK and skint)can anyone tell what revs it needs to run at,I see he's running his at 1:1 from the crank,it seems to me you could easily run a modified turbo at 4:1 at least,also what pressure you need and also wether you can run it into the airbox before the carbs.I'm also interested in nitrous but thats a future thing,soz,tried to put a pic up,but facebooks playing silly buggers and it wont let me copy my photos at the mo.Cheers!

Gavin, I know what you are trying to do, and it won't be easy. First off, without knowing what size turbo you have, it's impossible to say what speed it needs to be run at. You have to look at the compressor map for the specific turbo you have to figure out the operating range and final power output. Then, assuming the turbo is actually a good match for your engine, you have to figure out how to drive the thing and keep the bearings sealed.

The Rotrex I use in my kits has in internal step-up ratio of 12.67:1, and even though I underdrive it by 13%, the impeller still spins to 130,000 rpm at redline -- unless you are using a monster turbo, you will have to step up the ratio much more than 4:1. I'd say to shoot for 5psi peak initially and see how it goes, but even with your old 750, it should be able to handle 7-8psi peak (if everything is in proper working order, and detonation is avoided, that is). I have no idea, though, if the stock clutch and transmission can handle the additional load.

The carbs will have to be prepped for boost (that is, the bowls must be pressurized and you have to ensure everything is sealed), you'll have to redo the jetting, and your fuel pump will have to cope with the additional fuel demands. It's a major project, but anything can be accomplished with enough time and money. In my opinion, it would be easier to adapt the turbo to the bike as a turbo rather than converting it to a supercharger, but it's your project, so do what you want to do -- just be prepared for a lot of work either way.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the fuel pumps are slightly different as the tanks are different shape and capacity.

Just checked. :blush:

True, true, but for all intents and purposes, they're the same. Same flow rate, pickup, bolt pattern, fuel line fittings...I was just trying to save Ranger some cash -- there'd be no issue running the 5th-gen fuel pump setup with the 6th-gen injectors.

Personally, if I was dead set on keeping my 6th gen. (and had money to burn), I'd do a big bore kit on a 5th gen. VFR engine with slightly lower compression pistons. I'd then put this engine into my 6th gen. VFR and then supercharge it. I'd probably end up with 185-190 rwhp.

No need for the big bore or 5th-gen engine, Steve. If you were willing to tear apart your engine, I'd install a thicker head gasket to drop compression to 10-10.5:1 or so, then crank up the boost. I bet you could crack 200-210whp pretty easily, with much greater torque, too, as you're spinning the blower faster and generating more boost down low. It would be a monster.

The 6th-gen, with it's chain driven cams, can accommodate a thicker head gasket, and it also has a beefier clutch setup. Plus, on boost, anyway, the 6th-gen with VTEC actually outperforms the 5th-gen in the power department across the board.

Well i was hoping fot some to provide deminsions just so id know that the assembly would at least align up with the intake ports. Its just something to do. Injectors are no where cheap when new.

Also the 6th gen fuel pimp assembly should fit a 5th gen shouldnt it? Front the pics it looks exactly the same.

It will drop right in -- Honda didn't change a thing dimensionally. The fuel pump assembly is identical as well, so no need to swap to a 6th-gen unit. Fuel pressure is the same, injector flowrate is the same...as long as the MAP sensor and TP sensor are the same, you'll be in business. The starter valve setup is different, but you should be able to make it work.

The bore spacing is identical. Other than doing it for the sake of doing it, I don't see any benefit performance wise. Keep in mind that the newer injectors (with fine multi-hole diffuser plates) get gummed up a lot quicker than the 5th-gen's single pindtle design (just ask Kaldek). If you have to yank your current TB for some reason, have a complete 6th-gen unit with airbox assembly laying around, and have nothing better to do, then sure, give it a shot. The tuning may be slightly off during part-throttle situations (due to the finer atomization of the newer injectors), so be prepared to fiddle with your fuel map a smidge if you want it perfect.

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

To be fair, the bike in that video had brand new, cold tires, which is pretty much like riding on ice if you give it any gas. I also have an '08 GSX-R1000, and believe me, you have to do something very stupid for the bike to get out of shape that badly with the tires in normal operating condition. I once watched an ex-racer dump his ZR-7 (hardly a fire-breathing monster) in the middle of the road after turning out of the parking lot to go home for the day. You just have to be careful...

Whether Honda is trying to save the drivetrain or the rider is anybody's guess at this point, but if I owned the bike, I would definitely want it unrestricted.

Other than hoping that Timmy Brand Rattle can comes in Toro Orange or Dark Metallic Blue, I'm open to suggestions, bubba. :blink:

Actually, it does -- Black Gold. It's how I painted my RC51 front fender and did touch up to other areas. The color matched perfectly as it is real HOK paint, and every HOK color is available -- kandys, pearls, metallics. As long as you don't need too many basecoats, use a good clear coat, and take the time finish it properly, it can turn out very very nice.

Guys, he didn't ask about riding technique, he just asked about shedding some weight off his bike.

When I was on the Formula SAE team at PSU, we had the lightest 4-cylinder car by a huge margin, around 50+lbs IIRC. Our car fully fueled weighed 380lb, and to get it that light we used titanium in every possible location, and eliminated absolutely anything that wasn't crucial to performance. It could have been lighter, too, but full titanium frames weren't allowed. The key, though, and the reason we were so much lighter than everyone else, was the elimination of unnecessary weight on every component on the vehicle (down to drilling out the titanium bolts and running aluminum - yes, specially coated aluminum - brake rotors) -- little by little, it all adds up. This approach is what allowed RV4 to get his VFR750 down to 300lb, and taken on a more moderate scale, can allow you to shed some decent weight off your own bike.

If you don't ride 2-up, yank all the passenger controls. Get rid of the centerstand and any extra emissions components (EVAP canister, solenoid valve, PAIR system). Eliminate the rear fender, chain guards, heat guards, and any extra brackets. Delink the brakes. In other words, all the stuff TimC said earlier.

After that, you're going to have to start spending money: '98-'99 header or aftermarket catless setup with some aftermarket pipes; lightweight front wheel & rotors; 520 chain & sprocket conversion; fastener replacement.

If you're looking for more, fab work & megabucks comes into play: single nut conversion & lightweight rear wheel (or a complete swingarm swap somehow), lighter weight rear subframe, carbon body panels, lightweight solo seat, exotic materials, engine lightening, etc. etc., the list could go on forever, and the further you go, the less and less your bike is a VFR.

Unless you go all out, you'll never get it down to what the new superbikes weigh in at, but if you are just looking at dropping a few pounds, it can be done, and it can be done cheaply, as long as you're willing to put in some wrench work.

As I said earlier , about the engine tuning, my lips are sealed, Titanium pistons it will be. and cams, Titanium is alot lighter and it will make the engine rotate easier, reaching higher RPM wich meens more HP

Okay. Sounds interesting. The reason I question the pistons is titanium does not dissipate heat well and tends to gall in sliding contact situations (the galling can be cured somewhat with the right coating, but this is also why it's so difficult to machine). F1 engines are still using aluminum pistons and they can turn 19k+rpms.

Looking forward to your results.

Hi

The list will public, but not for the time being, Titanium valves, titanium pistons comression 12,8 :1 theres not one screw or nut on this bike made of steel, its Carbon, Aluminum and Titanium and Rubber

Do you mean titanium coated pistons or actual pistons made of titanium? If the latter is the case, what advantage would a titanium piston have over a modern forged aluminum design?

I'm guessing you must have a set of custom cams and increased the engine's operating speed and/or displacement to help make the extra power -- are the power numbers you quoted at the wheel or at the crank? Do you have a dyno printout you could share?

Yep, I've been down that road as well. There is a reason why my kits do not run a front mount intercooler or standard style oil cooler. It would be possible with a multi-piece, custom radiator setup, but not at a realistic price.

Is that a front mount radiator I spy in the box back there?

If only there were another 9hp to be found... Then you would have doubled the stock output!

What's really amazing here is we're only pushing about 10psi (without an intercooler) when in general with these superchargers you need ~15psi to double the power.

I'm almost tempted to turn up some bigger crank pulleys and see if we can crack 200whp...

:fing02:

This has just made my day. I knew my European map was off a bit, but this is just silly ridiculous power. I thought Steve had the highest power VFR800 locked up with his 175hp run, but you've topped him with this 183hp monster, Kenneth. Do you guys have any ethanol in your gas over there? We're saddled with 10%, which I think might be reducing the power output.

I'm going to post a link to your vid on my site -- very, very nice. Enjoy!

Hey Toro,

Would you please describe how the supercharged VFR feels compared to the non-supercharged motor? I know that asking you to describe a feeling can be very subjective, but as a 5th gen owner, I hope you'll be able to make the comparison. I'm wondering how the added HP and torque are felt by the rider. Does it feel comparable to the power delivery of a blackbird? Or is it only really noticeable at higher revs? Does the torque feel greater at the lower revs?

Thanks.

Hi Jamie,

In a nutshell, normal riding feels exactly the same as before. If anything, compared to stock, throttle response is crisper, starting out is easier, and the engine feels smoother, but it is still a VFR800. Now, there is no doubt that you have more power available to you at all points in the powerband, but in general, if you are at very low rpms (2500-3500), you will not feel much of a difference over stock as the Rotrex is only pushing ~1psi.

In most situations it has always felt to me like the bike is a gear (or two) lower than it would be stock. If you have a steeper gear ratio, the change will be even more noticeable. The power really starts to build around 5000rpm, with serious steam coming around 7-8000. From there on up, there is absolutely no resemblance to a stock VFR, as depending on the ride height and gearing, the front end becomes very light (with stock ride height and a -1/+2 gearing setup, I've had the bike wheelie in 5th-gear, but now with a lowered front end and stock gearing, it stays much more planted).

The bike will pull to redline with absolute authority, as the power never stops increasing -- if you hardly ever reached the redline before, you will once you add this kit. To give you an idea of the power, the bike will wheelie on command from any rpm in the first two gears with the stock gearing, and can easily power wheelie in 3rd & 4th. However, due to the nature of the supercharger, the power is still actually controllable, and you don't have to worry about a sudden boost spike coming out of a turn. 160whp is still 160whp, though, so you need to treat it with respect, and you can have some tense moments if you're not careful.

I have not ridden a Blackbird, but I can compare the powerband to a GSXR1000 & ZX10R. Basically, if it's low rpm torque you're looking for, this kit is not the answer. The bike is only 781ccs, and with low boost output at low rpms, this engine is not transformed into a 1200cc monster. Compared to the literbikes, around town I feel the VFR is actually a bit quicker due to the tranny gearing, but once you get in 3rd & 4th gear (and up), the greater torque of the 1000s (and their smooth firing 180° crank layout) provide a vibe-free, stronger pull from low rpms. If you really want to experience greater torque, changing the final gearing does wonders, but no matter what, 781ccs cannot compete with 1000-1300ccs in the torque department down low.

However, if you're used to the VFR powerband, and are looking for more power, this kit does give you more oomph at all rpms, with an insane amount coming from midrange on up. It makes a great bike even better, and really puts on smile on your face when you crank on the throttle.

Hope that helps.

I was going to ask you about that Dan. I understand the concept of what you're saying, but won't the computer make that required mixture adjustment based on the readings from the MAP sensor? That is, shouldn't it sense the denser air and add fuel accordingly?

It will compensate for the small stuff, but not WOT (which is why the map I provided, though perfect for me at sea level, was ultra rich for you at 4000ft). We are adding so much air & fuel to the engine that the stock sensors can't keep up. Remember, we bypass the boost from the stock MAP sensor so it doesn't throw a code, but at the same time, it renders it useless once we're pushing boost.

Ultimately, the best way to handle tuning would be to base the fueling off of boost, but to do that, the cost really starts to go up (due to needing a 3-bar MAP sensor, the multi-function hub if using a PCIII, or an entirely different way of handling the tuning). With most riders, unless they are significantly changing elevation, the PCIII is by far the most cost-effective way to dial in the AFR.

In your case, since you already have the LCD unit, you can store as many maps as you like, but if you want even greater tuning capability, then we'd have to look at getting you the multi-function hub and an aftermarket MAP sensor, at which point it truly would not matter where in the world you rode since the fuel added would be proportional to boost.

Wow - I didn't think Toro's elevation was that low. That would make quite a difference compared to Calgary. I'm headed to California for a ride in May, so I should find out then how my bike reacts at lower altitudes. I'm thinking its gonna be fun!!

Yep, I'm very close to the Delaware river, so while it's very, very hilly in my area, I'm basically at sea level (the dyno I use is only @ 100ft).

Steve, for your trip, keep my original map (and your tuned map) loaded on the LCD unit -- that way once you come down from the mountains, you can richen up the mixture on the fly (the LCD unit will let you store and swap as many maps as you like). With the denser air, your uncorrected hp will go from your current 156.4hp (173.6hp/ 1.11 - SAE correction factor) to a true uncorrected 170+hp, and you'll need more fuel accordingly (just for reference, my bike pulled 167hp uncorrected).

Steve's bike is officially the highest power VFR800 on the planet now. The initial map was pig rich, I'm sure, from the change in altitude (close to 4000ft, I believe), and once it was adjusted back to realistic AFRs, the power increased accordingly.

What is very interesting to note is that this bike pulls all the way to 12100rpm (as does the '06 I'm working on now), whereas my '98 stops right at 11700rpm. I'm not sure if this is fueling or ECU related, but either way, the dyno chart for Steve's '99 and my '98 are identical up to 11500, but his bike keeps pulling and thus ends up with 14 more ponies.

I don't think your insurance company needs to know if you are adapting the kit to a bike you already own -- it didn't come with it stock, and with most companies I've dealt with, they only care about the OEM specs of the vehicle you're covering. Now, if you purchase a motorcycle with a supercharger already on it, that's probably a different story.

I've also noticed that the insurance forms have a check box for Turbo/Nitrous, but not one for Supercharger, and besides, the kit is intended for off-road use only anyway...

:rolleyes:

Late to the party on this one, but the 2000-2001 VFRs had the VFR emblem on the tach as standard.

I've been looking for one for quite awhile, but every one that comes up on EBAY is worth an arm and a leg.

I did the same thing when I built my bike, Rob. I loved the look of the later gauges (and had to have that little VFR logo) and went through multiple clusters on ebay before I had the proper combination (it seemed like I could only find metric units for some reason). I wonder how many other '98-'99 owners have updated to the newer gauges?

If you want to find out what your setup will sound like before you commit to something, try to find some different diameter pipes (anywhere from 1.25" to 1.625" ID) and play with the length that the pipe sticks inside of the tube -- just wrap the pipe with a rag to take up the space, and vary how far the restrictor sticks inside the Laser. The exhaust tone will vary accordingly. Bigger diameter pipes = louder & more bass.

Just for reference, the restrictor I made for my pipe has a 1.625" ID, is substantially quieter than running the 2.5" pipe wide open, and does not present any real power loss. Make sure you flare the opening of the restrictor to avoid flow losses -- the bigger the entry radius, the better (there's a reason why the velocity stacks in your airbox have that big donut on top).

Edit: I forgot you are running 2 pipes -- the IDs for the restrictors should be able to go as small as .875" without any loss in power.