Trace

An overall suggestion: Unless you're already a Honda or VFR guy and are aware of Honda's assorted chronic electrical ( or other) gremlins, you might want to carefully review some of the threads in the electrical (or other) sections and eliminate those problems while the bike is in a zilion pieces.

That subframe weldment photo of yours that shows the big white 3-wire stator/RR connector got me to thinking about this. You DO know about the big white 3-wire connector meltdown problems, don't you? :pissed: Maybe some folks will chime in with other common problems for this generation VFR.

Anyway, good luck with your clever project. :cool:

The important thing here is that I saved this bike from the scraper and it's getting a new life as a fun streetbike that will turn heads, not for it's amazingly expensive aftermarket accessories but for it's "WTF?" looks.

That's a good enough reason for me! Onwards! :fing02:

I'm not talking about "Big Oil's Evil agenda", I wasn't discussing the state of politics. I have no comment on the supposed MIB's. No politics where involved in that comment, Trace.

My only point is that the human race is addicted to petroleum as an energy source and any addiction makes the user a slave to the source of the addiction.

The oil that is in the earth is not going to last forever, nor can the Natural gas, or even the coal, if we continue to power the transportation all over the world with it.

It doesn't matter what I think of the government or the oil companies in this case, I'm talking about the human race and our major fuel source is going to run out.

We need to find another source of power, and since I have yet to see a Mr. Fusion reactor that can fit in a vehicle to power it, I'm trying to develop another alternative.

Okay, okay, okay JES.... how about a truce?

If you and your loyal supporters leave behind the leftist, apocolyptic, conspiracy-piracy-theory-MIB-Matrix spoutings of this TECHNICAL DISCUSSION about the merits or lack thereof of HHO, I'll butt-out with my criticism and chain-yanking from the sidelines. It is because of my pro-capitalist, anti-global warming, anti-New World Order, anti-Michael Moore, anti-Al Gore stance that I simply can't let unfounded opinions about the future of oil and energy policy go unchallenged on this forum. When myths go unchallenged for too long, they begin to eclipse the truth. Thus I had to go on the offensive to put some records straight or at least question the liberal politics that have invaded your "Cooking With Hydrogen" thread.

So.....why don't we ALL leave politics out of this, as it serves no purpose. We can agree to disagree about the future of the planet and where HHO fits into it. Hell, I'll even stop picking on HHO as being junk science and sit back to see your eventual results! Let us allow the technical chips to fall where they may. Sound reasonable?

As for the future of electrical power generation for the Rest Of All Time Of Earth....learn what you can about Traveling Wave Reactors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_wave_reactor Lots and lots of science involved there!

What do you have to gain?? The launching of a project to free the world from oil addiction and slavery.

That is absolute bullshit statement and you should be ashamed of yourself. THAT is why I resurrected this thread....to expose this crazy political nonsense that blindly supports "capitalist oil conspiracy theory"....yet attacks anyone who points out the decades of scientific work that has totally debunked the Brown's Gas Conspiracy is infuriating and baffling.

Slavery? Oil addiction? Those are big words and have no place here, especially after I [me, Trace] got pounded for bringing this nutbag topic back for inspection by the membership and wondering about your (lack of) progress. I asked for an update, and we got more political spin instead of results. How DARE you shill for your own Pepsi project, asking your fellow VFRD members to vote for you regardless of the merits of your project. Ahhhh...I see. If MONEY goes toward your cause it's okay. If it goes to Exxon....it's evil.

Slave oil? No. HHO snake oil? Yes.

Welcome to the Matrix, but I'll stick to the Blue Pill, thanks.

:lurk:

JES,

Thanks for the update, and appreciate your willingness to step back into this controversial subject.

Just an FYI, my 2000 gets a consistent and carefully calculated 44 mpg with a 45 tooth sprocket. By "carefully calculated", I mean that my speedo is exactly correct using a speedohealer, and that my odo is exactly 11 percent low as a result of that correction. Thus, I crank 11% into my odo miles when gassing up. Plus, I use traveling mate's mileage at gas stops as a comparision/validation of miles traveled. Anyway, it always comes out to 44 mpg over the last 5 years during fairly hard highway running.

And my gas-pig RC51 gets 31 mpg doing the very same runs from Florida to Franklin NC and back! :pissed:

It's not like someone said something really controversial, like "ABS is beneficial." :goofy:

Hahaha! Yeah, or dare ask about "oil" or "tires" or "helmets" or "which color is best", etc. :laughing6-hehe:

Wow. I'm sorry I ever opened this thread, it has completely changed how I see this site.

You are completely off base with your take on this discussion. Let me boil it down for you for your re-consideration:

1. A good and respected member (JES) posted about his HHO project, which I think we ALL applauded as admirable for giving it a shot.

2. But many of us with technical backgrounds found it to be extremely questionable, because we know you don't get something for nothing.

3, This skepticism was bolstered by the long, long history of "Brown's Gas" hokum. Us doubters didn't invent the skepticism...it's well documented by most of the scientific community.

3. The greenie folks here accepted the premise that HHO is viable, and then attacked us skeptics as "capitalistic tools".

4. We all retreated to our respective corners for the past six months. Waiting.

5. And now....me....who is the proud owner of a long memory.....have asked the original poster of the status of his HHO project.

So I ask you.....if a member had converted his chain-drive to a belt-drive six months ago and then became a fanatic proponent of his own self-generated controversy, would it not be proper to ask that member how that belt system is doing after half a year of use? After all, on this excellent forum we are always sharing info, helping each other, challenging assorted ideas, and letting the marketplace decide.

Did you want us all to accept HHO as the Next Great Thing without question?

I'm questioning. And as of yet, I have no answers.

Not really worth it for just weight savings.

Totally true, but it's about the only weight you can get out of our heavy pigs for free, so I wanted to "enjoy" that massive improvement, too! :biggrin:

Yeah, that 6thGen HowTo is good 'nuff for 5thGen work. Once you start "following hoses", you'll see how simple the PAIR removal actually is.

As for the flapper valve stuff that was also mentioned in that post, most of us have disconnected the hose that goes to the diaphram and plugged it. But last weekend I had the airbox off and removed EVERYTHING that has to do with that useless system (Bypass Solenoid Valve, One Way Valve, small Vacuum Canister, associated small vacuum hoses, etc), and plugged the single small vacuum hose from the intake manifold that makes it all work. I DID keep the Bypass Solenoid Valve in place on the airbox and kept the electrical connection to it (which just gives the valve 12V on/off to open or close the flapper) to prevent any codes due to being disconnected, but that solenoid valve now does NOTHING except sit there. Obviously, since it's not hooked to anything there is no reason whatsoever to plug the various nipples coming off of it.

So, while you're doing the PAIR thing you might as well do the total flapper crap removal, too. With all of this work you'll be removing a whopping 10-12 ounces of useless do-dads! :biggrin:

Echoing what Mad said, you can toss everything in that picture with no ill-effects. Get rid of that crap!

I didn't use block-off plates....I simply cut and plugged hoses coming off the cylinder heads with short 3/8s inch bolts.

Blocking the airbox hole is really simple....pretty much anything that you can put over the airbox fitting or jam securly in it (which is what I did, but I forgot what it was...a small rubber cork perhaps?) It's not a critical pressure or vacuum situation there. What you DON'T want to do is jam something into the hole from the inside of the airbox. If were to ever pop out (inwards!), it would definitely end up down the intake stacks and jam your throttle blades open. Oooops! Removing the airbox to do this makes it easy and foolproof.

Isn't there a How To on this? I thought HS did one years ago.

No. It isn't fair. If VFRD was paying Jes for this service (which it really is IMHO) you would be absolutely correct.

Dimitry, I can't quite follow the relevance of your point regarding payment, but I'll use your concept of "pay" to make my point. Using VFRD, JES started a thread where he preached the viability of HHO and haughtily boasted about 80mpg; and one of his supporters actually said "The Laws of Thermodynamics are dated", as if there's a statute of limitations on physics; and others accused Big Business/Big Oil of suppressing "green" research for various nefarious reasons. And last May we got daily updates of his installation and progress, but now.....nothing.

So, back to payments. Instead of VFRD having to PAY JES for the results of his experiment....I believe he OWES this community (both the supporters and the naysayers) a few minutes of his heavily prioritized time to give us an update. In fact, I'm betting that JES is just finishing up a big report on the results of his research and he'll be sending us the weblink to it any day now! :fing02:

Even Galileo and Columbus were told to "put up or shut up" when it came to their radical ideas, and those two guys eventually justified their beliefs. And on May 12th, you yourself said "Can't wait for the results!". So...how much time is enough time for him to give us some results?

I think that regardless of our expectations of the outcome, we can all agree that everyone wants Jes to carry this experiment through to its conclusion.

Thank you for trying and for letting us know about your efforts.

Yes, exactly right. I don't think anyone said he should stop, but six months have passed and there was a lot of interest and discussion by both supporters and naysayers, along with an ongoing heated argument that ventured into politics and big business and conspiracy theories. So, what I'm thinkin' is that after tossing this experiment smack-dab into the middle of VFRD-land, it's about time "for letting us know about your efforts".

Isn't that fair? Just sayin'....

Step away from the Tiki bar my friend! :blink:

Hey....alcohol works! HHO doesn't.... :laughing6-hehe:

Fine. When we get to the 80+ mpg VFR we WON'T bother you.

OKAY!!! Last May this post came out about hydroxy or HHO or whatever. Much interest was generated, the tree huggers and Big Oil Conspiracy Theorists proclaimed JES_VFR a saint and visionary. Most other members adopted a wait-and-see attitude hoping for the best, and several others (including Mad Scientist and myself) immediately waved the BULLSHIT flag.

My position was that you can't get something for nothing, no matter how many black helicopters with Exxon emblems you think might be following you; or no matter how many pseudo-science bullshit websites you subscribe to. The assorted wackos out there might not like pure science, but just because your politics make you think that there is a conspiracy doesn't necessarily mean there is one. [And I don't exactly mean your politics, JES, I'm using the general "you" and "your", here].

You (actually it was mostly your followers) resorted to name-calling when the logical and scientifically-educated members questioned your HHO investigations. I KNOW that you're a good guy, a good member here and that you mean well, but I can't let pseudo-science and left-wing theory run amok without a challenge.

What say you now? How about that 80 MPG that you referred to? Frankly, I'd love for you to tell us it's working and making lots of power and giving big mileage improvements, so I can eat a bunch of humble pie.

Can you elaborate on this bit about lazy shifting tendencies? What in particular and what happens if you don't?

Well, perhaps we should talk about "unlazy" shifting during upshifts: Shift a bit higher in the rev range instead of granny-shifting at 5000 rpm (after all, you've got 12K rpm to play with!); preload the shifter with some mild upward pressure BEFORE you pull on the clutch lever; move that lever in and out quickly; move the throttle up and down quickly in unison with the clutch lever (unless you're keeping the throttle at WOT when you're shifting which mean you better not be "lazy shifting")....and in general paying attention to every gearchange, up or down instead of being lazy about it. Essentially it means quick, deft, positive gearchanges using precise shifter, clutch and throttle action. This sort of action practically eliminates false neutrals and other "hung" shifts. Works for cars, too! :laughing6-hehe:

Yeah, total nonsense. They were trying to say "spin the rear wheel a little bit so you can change gears, because you can't normally change gear when the engine isn't turning the gearbox."

Yep, as I figured. But they didn't tell you to reinstall the sprocket and chain, you could have been sitting there turning that wheel for DAYS trying to get the tranny to shift! :biggrin:

My "ride report" after 5 years of using the kit is that it's a very nice mod, providing more precise shifting and rare false neutrals going into second gear. But it does require that you get away from "lazy shifting" tendencies and shift it like you mean it! :fing02:

Wait a dang minute...you can't do a How To on this! A few days ago you were asking How To Do It your-own-self!! :sad:

Oh....what did you learn about "turning the wheel and keeping the clutch shaft stationary"? Was it like I said....nonsense?

Anyway, a nice write-up that updates Jet-Pilot's original How To, which is here: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/7886-factorypro-shift-kit-install/page__pid__714472#entry714472

:fing02: :beer:

I just read my Factory Pro instructions (from 2004) and the Honda manual, and I think the mention of the "keeping the clutch transmission shaft from turning" is misleading and confusing (obviously!). Yes, I think the "shaft" is the output shaft, but the point of all this is that they want you to test the shifting action while providing some bit of rotation to the transmission guts by gently turning the rear wheel.

In my 18 line instructions, they also don't mention that you have to temporarily reinstall the sprocket and chain so that turning the rear wheel will actually do something!

As you know, it's sometimes very difficult or impossible to shift the tranny unless the engine is running or the wheel is turning. In either case it means the tranny guts are rotating a little bit, which allows the gear dogs, forks and the shifter drum to "move" as they're supposed to. Factory Pro DOESN'T want to you be testing the operation of the new shifter parts by forcing the shift lever and the detent star to move these internal tranny parts. Something might bend in the process!

So...once you've installed the new parts, do a gentle test of the shifting action by turning the wheel. It won't turn much with the tranny going thru the gears.

FYI, you'll need a proper allen driver to remove and reinstall (23 N/m torque) the detent star's allen bolt. An old-fashioned L-shaped allen key probably won't work because that bolt is somewhat recessed in the detent star and the short side of a key won't reach. And threadlocker is required on that bolt, but first you need to make sure the bolt hole is clean and dry. I used lots of cotton swabs dipped in lacquer thinner to do so.

Anyway, don't worry about that "clutch shaft" stuff. Just test the installation like you would normally do before you button-up the job with the new gastket, etc.

Regarding conspiracy theories.. take the Diesel engine for example.... ....the inventor was murdered and the engine was reborn years lator to run on a by product of oil refining!

The oil companies are very powerful and they dictate almost every aspect of our lives.....

I have to say you guys will be proven wrong! These so called "laws" are stipulated by a man, who is himself not infallible. The laws are so dated, take the laws of Thermodynamics for example - they were made before the introduction of high oscilation square tooth wave forms, low power ICs didn't exist.... the second law of thermodynamics was established in the 1820's (when man thought airtravel was impossible) so do you really think that they still stand true today with the amount of advancements made in other areas?

The root cause is how Joe Public has been "conditioned" by an education system controlled by a governing body funded by oil companies....

TBH no one person can do anything about it - but people's eyes are opening thanks to the internet and the immense wealth of information available to anyone with the motivation to use it.

Wow! You are really "out there", aren't you? That's the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that the Laws of Thermo are "dated". Has the force of gravity changed, too? So much for all my wasted years in engineering school....

As for the vast amount of information on the Internet (and as Kaldek touched on in both of his well-stated posts, above), it can provide an immense wealth of psuedo-scientific nonsense and conspriacy theories that Lotus Eaters can latch onto and proclaim as "proof". :beatdeadhorse:

As for JES, I totally agree that he has done a fine job of defending his position with gentlemanly responses and discussion. I just don't believe in HHO at all.

Solyent green is people!!

Hey Trace you bring up a good point, but I think you don't see the real truth. None of the breakthroughs in the alternate energy arena started with these big industry leaders, Its all these small little companies that design and develop the technology, then GM, Ford, Exxon, LUK or even the USAF comes along and wants to buy out the patent.

Well, actually I think I DO see the truth, and it does not include conspriacy theories about surpressing promising new technologies just so Big Oil can continue to rule the world. Everybody is working Everything, Everywhere, all the time, so that's why I don't feel that HHO has been "missed" as viable. In fact, the truth that I saw a long time ago was the mania surrounding the Three Mile Island incident (with no resulting radiation leak, as designed!) and the resulting moratorium on nuke power to this day. Now look at the fix we're in....coal and oil to generate electricity, when the best Energy Density available has been staring us in the face for years. Yep, I'm big on nukes. In fact, do a little research on Traveling Wave Reactors. THAT is the solution for all energy needs, forever. And ever. And it's almost a viable technology.

You are 100% correct it is all about Money and Energy Density. Gasoline has just about the highest density out there. That's why we have been using for all these years. The problem I have is that we never mastered efficiently combusting it.

Well, that may or may not be true. We're nearing the efficiencies of the various Carnot/Rankine/Otto cycle theories of the textbooks....harnessing waste heat and all that. I understand that you're hoping HHO will somehow increase combustion efficiency...but I think you're just changing water to water and losing energy (electricity) in the process. It would be great if I'm wrong.

I don't know that I'm trying to break any laws of science, I'm just trying to bend the equations in my favor for a change.

Bending doesn't set well with Mother Nature, but I think that's absolutely great that you're having a go at it. It's very interesting, regardless of my Money Truth and Energy Density Truth rantings! :warranty:

Science has blasted a huge hole in the HHO theory of "something for almost nothing". But let's look at something that is FAR more important that science: MONEY!

With all the bazillions of dollars (yen, marks) being invested by auto makers, independent research institutions (and colleges) AND the oil companies in hybrids and battery technology, direct fuel injection, variable displacement, diesel-two-stroke-opposed-piston engines and ALL the other endeavors over the past 40 years to increase mileage and reduce emissions.....does anyone really think that all these very smart and motivated researchers have overlooked something as simple and effective as HHO is proclaimed to be?

Hardly.

I recently had an email conversation with Neil Cavuto (Fox News Channel) when he had Pat Boone on his show, pushing a silly "compressed air" car. [You gotta watch this dingbat Boone talk about saving the world with this air car]-- http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CBUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.foxnews.com%2Fv%2F4028558%2Fpat-boone-pushing-air-cars%2F%3Fplaylist_id%3D87249&rct=j&q=pat+boone+air+car&ei=W3HrS5aIIIK78gbfpdSxBA&usg=AFQjCNH53Sw_o-IqLfcND8W1ip__XoYeeA Cavuto is no engineer and thus didn't know to toss some basic technical questions to Boone to debunk the air car. I wrote to him and discussed two simple things to keep in mind when he has to evaluate crank concepts in future interviews: Energy density and MONEY. Energy density is why we've been using gasoline (and diesel) for 100 years....and MONEY is why we've been using gasoline (and diesel) for 100 years.

Hey Pat...how do you MAKE the compressed air, huh? Perhaps in an enormously inefficient air compressor run by electricity produced from coal? What a dingbat!

Anyway, science is good......the 2nd Law of Thermo is immutable. But MONEY is an easier theory to follow. It's quite simple--money talks. Period. :biggrin:

I applaud JES for all his hard and clever work, and I hope he somehow proves science wrong.

:offtopic:

Anti-slip Rear Seat Cover for Passenger

This seat cover is the bomb!! In '09 I had to a way to keep my wife from sliding herself (and me in the process) into my tank on hard stops; especially after I treated the seats with Leather Conditioner which made them especially slick.

This Triboseat Cover did the trick!! It is similar to the foam grip rolls that you lay out over your tool chest drawers to keep tools from sliding around, but is way more durable and has some kinda of almost sticky resin application on it.

After using it for a good 40 or so trips with her on back, I can say it's durable, works wonders, she stays perfectly planted, and best yet is it's very affordable. I paid $20 shipped to get it. It even works well on my Corbin Seat (however I had to pull it tighter in some sections then others - which is completely understandeable since the corbin is more contoured, but it was very easy to do).

You can find these under "Triboseat" on eBay.

Triboseat eBay Anti-slip Seat Cover Seller

Yeah, that stuff works good. I simply made one using the Rubbermaid product that you can buy anywhere, formed it to the seat nicely, and taped it in place on the bottom of the seat (my Corbin) using Gorilla tape. I had it on at TMAC last year and it's still going strong. Some of you might recall that GF Cheryl was firmly planted at full lean and full throttle. It's only needed on the actual "Butt Area".....no need to have it going all the way to the rear of the seat.

I get a kick out of this thread because the pipes he used to build his exhorrrst system came off of my bike. I had bought another set to JetHot, and after installing them, Tokkie asked about my originals. So I took those pipes, cut them just above collector to make for easier packaging for a trip from Florida to South Africa and because Tokkie obviously didn't need anything except the headpipes. Also in that box I had procured for him some TemperPedic foam (seat), the Factory Pro shift kit, RC51 head bearings, a seat cowl (so he could paint it to match his custom bodywork color), some Gorilla Glue (he loved that stuff!) and a few other items that aren't readily available for a 5th Gen in South Africa.

It was great fun to see his ideas become a very cool bike, and I was quite bummed when he had his crash and the bike was no more.

When Jetpilot did his write-up about 1000 years ago, there was no star wheel in the shift kit package--just the roller bearing-ized detent arm and stronger spring (which did help the shifting). I did the "whole package" installation in 2004, and I took this pic of all the parts. As you can see, the star wheel is considerably "new and improved".

OEM parts are on the left

The issue I'm trying to address is the seemly endless parade of dumb ass drivers that only react to a reduction in following distance with a bright-light-wake-up. I've noticed if I slow down with out a brake light, people will let the following distance close right up, at least until they see a brake light. My goal is more to get them to maintain a safe following distance.

Look...you're never going to get the entire driving public to give you some magical, mythical following distance where you feel comfortable with your vacuum tail light. I don't seem to have this problem with slowing down and drivers tailling me, cuz I go fast until it's time to slow down or stop. But if you want to put this wacky thing on your bike, go ahead and do it. You'll be the only bike in the universe with a vacu-brakelight, and you'll be happy.

If you were taught downshift like MotoGP to slow for traffic stoppages, well, maybe your instructor was wrong. But yeah, we all downshift as we slow, to have the ooomph to go when the time comes. We do the same thing in cars all the time. Everyone downshifts...including modern cars with auto transmissions. But it's not to slow down, for the most part. It's to be ready to GO. Or you could increase rear tire wear with this method of slowing down, if you want. It's your tires. Do it.

The legality comment was about multi-colored lights, which I think was poking fun at your entire "slowing down light" concept. Brake lights are legal, regardless of how you apply them. After all, some dimwits ride the brake in their Escalades all the time, and they never get tickets...so it must be legal, right?

As for the rest of us, it appears that we don't think it's a useful invention. But what IS a useful invention is Hyper-lites or any of the other bright, flasher systems that are available for minimal cost. Those DO get driver's attention with a touch of your brakes, which is what you're supposed to be using anyway. If those devices don't get someone's attention, then you're doomed anyway. Life is like that. Maybe you shouldn't be doing these long, gradual slow-downs that get drivers on your ass, wondering why you don't keep up with the flow of traffic. Just go quickly and then brake when you need to. And drivers are going to get on your ass, regardless of what you do, Hyper-lites or not. They don't care that you're on a bike. That's the way it is.

Or install your vacu-light. I think the subject has been beaten to death at this point. You've argued against every point that anyone has made against this silly idea, so just go ahead and do it. Set the vacuum at 5 inches so the light will come on when you get off the throttle in 6th gear at 50 mph. :huh:

Be safe out there......or get a car.