MooseMoose

2 minutes ago, ScottieDucati said:

Cylinder 1 looks as they should but not squished at all?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

4 hours ago, GreginDenver said:

(NOTE: I didn't fully torque-to-spec on the rear cylinders so I believe the front cylinders (#2 and #4) are the best representation

I think that was expected Scottie. Greg didn't torque the rear cylinders so they are just started, not fully seated at all.

Looks to me like 1 and 2 (with the seams properly facing in) would have been just fine. 4 is the oddball here, I swear my ports look a little different on the front, but I still think 4 would have been fine if properly placed.

SF and Duc have done several header installs with 42mm, I'm using 42mm, all successfully. Mine sealed on the first try and have been through a dozen heat cycles and 100 miles, still good.  SF tried multiple sizes and types before coming to the 42mm Delk recommendation.

That said, You do what you need on your bike. You're a good mechanic and I'll be interested in your results. Please post what happens with the 41mm.

42mm.

Mine did that, too. They're exactly as large as they can be, and one was even  difficult to get in there, but they worked like a charm. I had to cram them into the ports, but the headers pushed them into place and I'm leak free, first try.

1 hour ago, MiniCarver said:

Finally got around to installing the pipe. The front was pretty far off and misaligned. CornerCarver had to lay on the ground and push the front right with his foot while I worked it into place. 

That's exactly the way the original Two Brothers pipes they were patterned off of fit.   Everyone should expect this.

Guys, don't stress over this. I'm not challenging it at all. I just wanted to know how it worked.

Engineering wise, you can't put something on one mounting point and expect it to not rotate. You have to have two points, preferably with some spacing, to create the leverage necessary, and that one creates it by butting up against the case as the second point of contact.

That's all the question was.  Idle curiosity about a different design that solves this problem in an innovative way.

3 hours ago, Duc2V4 said:

It pushes up against the cush or engine, I'd have to take a closer look but yes, adding a bend and/or use thicker metal would provide more rigidity.

I'm not picking on your prototype. I do my fair share of brakeless sheet metal bending as well, and there's only so much you can do with a vice and a hammer. That one's a perfect proof of concept.

I was just sort of thinking as I typed.  Since it buts up against he case there it is going to have no problem rotating with just one mounting bolt is what I was thinking about. I don't know what Seb's shop has for brakes, though, but he's good enough at solving problems I'm confident he will come up with something that he can produce out of this.

5 hours ago, boOZZIE said:

Will this interfer with the 3rd o2 sensor as MooseMoose fitting thread says it's all pretty close there

I doubt it. It's outside the end of the sensor.   I mean, I don't have it on my bike, but I'm 95% sure it can be made to clear and do its job just as it is.

1 hour ago, Duc2V4 said:

BTW, here is what I did last night and is what I had forwarded to Seb (via pictures). Hopefully I am on the right track but I'm sure Seb's talent could easily surpass mine!

 

 

Does that push against the frame?  So it has a nice hard stop?

This might be a great solution. One more bend for rigidity, a bump stop, and it'd be pretty elegant.  Paint it black and I bet it just sort of disappears into the frame, visually. Nobody would pay attention who wasn't specifically looking for it.

This is a nice proof of concept/hand tool prototype. I love clever little things like this.

2 hours ago, BuzznerSuntrusts said:

6TH GENS! (ONLY?)

Not sure on 8th, but 5th is standard.

Beat me to it.   My 5th gen is standard.

Torque these to spec, too. They have  lot of threads for medium loctite, and a wavey washer. These do a great job at keeping them from vibrating out. There's nothing to be bought by overstressing the bolt.

Gee, I didn't think to try either of those things.

It's not as close as it looks and there's a whole lot of pipe out of frame. There are only so many angles you can get to and I had no leverage to expand anything.

Just plan on dropping the center stand on a 5th gen to feed it through. It's two fucking bolts and you probably should clean and regrease that mount anyway.

That's a 5th gen. I had to drop the stand.

You CANNOT fit that centerstand through the gap between the downpipes and the outlet on a 5th gen. At least on mine you can't.  I just tried yesterday. You have to weave the centerstand up through it, which means taking it off, fitting it through, then ataching the centerstand before attaching the pipes.

I took illustrative pictures.

You have to drop the headers to get the centerstand on.  They basically have to go on together, in fact, lower the headers and thread the stand up between, bolt on the stand, then put the headers back into place,  There's just no way to get the bolt in the right side space otherwise.

Payment sent. If I'd known I'd have handed you cash right there! Don't want you to be out of pocket after the scores of hours already contributed to this project.

Those 8Gen are good charts, especially around the vtec dip.  An honest 4% untuned and 7% tuned over stock is nothing to sneeze at on peaks, but that midrange is just lovely! Big, fat gains there.

Pipe stretching worked.

The Delkovic slipon connector is not as nice a steel as the stuff on the new headers. But what do you expect?  Question now is whether I can get it to line up with the wheel and bracket, one that will be answered in a day or two when I get to the screwing it all back together stage.  Fingers crossed.

You aren't kidding about the hard work and dedication.  Just the logistical mess, which they took on so that Wade could largely focus on manufacture, was substantial.  I went over to SF's place and he and Duc were sorting through who got what -- every one of us got something different, some of use got more than one and even those weren't the same -- and I wanted to help, but it wasn't the labor that was missing. It was the organization that was taking their time. I pretty much got in the way so I grabbed a set and got out of the way,

I am sure they learned more about small manufacturing , supplier networks, shipping, and the rougher details of metal fabrication than most of us need to know. And, in case anyone doesn't understand, these shops aren't local to either of them, and they don't live next door. For example, every trip to get a bike dyno'd  and tuned is an hour and a half from SF and probably 45 minutes from Duc, without traffic. Each way.

Getting performance headers for the older models has been a dream of a lot of folks, but they got it done. This is huge, and greatly appreciated.

Also, I'm doing this and a few other mods. If I run into anything silly, I'll try and take some pictures.

Do we want to post assembly tips here? Or should I start a thread in Maintenance?

For Delkovic slip on owners, the connector pipe is not quite large enough to fit over the exit of the new headers:

I totally expected this, and will just visit a friend who does mufflers on Monday. He says it's a quick 10 minute job to stretch it a tad.

I'mma just leave this here...

36 minutes ago, VFR750F3 said:

Back to the 6th generation chart does anyone think the mufflers and the mid pipe had anything to do with the loss of power on top end.

 

As I read those charts you're buying horsepower over stock everywhere.  Or do you mean relative to the 5th gen?

Are you talking about how, even stock, it falls off a little after peaking at 10.7K? Do you think the dual high pipe costs top end?   Wouldn't be too hard to do. Borrow a slipon from a 5th gen friend and do a little bracketmaking and you could mount a 5G style midpipe and right exit slipon below the passenger peg to do a comparison run when you tune your bike, I guess, but I've never heard of anyone doing both to compare.

Again, might be interesting data to have when someone tunes their 6G. Otherwise we'd have no idea how much of that is the pipes and how much valves and the timing differences between gens.

1 hour ago, sfdownhill said:

 Yep - Hammerdrill only lives 6 miles from Attack, so he rode his VFR to and from the session. After he got home he texted “Hey! Now I can wheelie on this bike!”

 

 

hah, Awesome!  Exactly the but dyno results we'd expect from those charts. It's between 5 and 10% pretty much everywhere from midrange up. Very nice charts, at least as exciting as the 5th gen runs.

Quote

And dang! Forgot about ignition mapping and how it helps the 6 gen. Does PCV have ignition mapping onboard, or does it require an add-on module?

I don't know for sure about PCV.   Rapid Bike Racing does for sure, I think PCV can do it, too, but I don't have first hand experience.  And rumor has it there is a lot of advance to play with on the 6th gens. It'll be fun to see a chart if anyone is willing to play with the advance after getting their headers.

2 minutes ago, boOZZIE said:

Im thinking that a downward angle is needed so that if there is moisture on the sensor and the bike is hibernating, then the water can drip off.

That's the theory.

But, practically, you just don't want it to stick out the bottom so water can pool on the sensor. As long as it is above the bottom you'll be fine.  I'm seriously not worried, and Greg having talked to Bosch engineers just puts me more at ease.

So... looking at the charts it's the same. 5 easy horsepower. 10% HP possible, 7-8% torque.  Good numbers

I'm betting the bike feels great with that tune, and the bottom end looks good, too.   Could probably grab another HP or two with some ignition mapping, too.

Well stated Boozie.

I'm not thinking this will be a problem. For a couple of reasons.

1. The sensor tip won't be at the low point.

It is level, yes, but it's not at the bottom of the pipe and that's not the place the pipe will get a puddle in heavy condensation conditions. Above centerline is optimal, but what you really don't want is for the sensor tip to be where condensation can build up and enter the holes. I think that bung is high enough on the pipe that horizontal is not a problem.

2. Those sensors have a heater on them.

They're not like the olden days sensors where they rely on the exhaust heat to warm them up.

3. Those sensors really aren't used by a lot of us.

PCIII users unplug them and put a resistor in to simulate the heater coil and tune off of that.  3 hole guys like me, running Rapidbike with the wideband, flip on the RBo2 Active anyway, which spoofs the signal. If those aren't working optimally after 30K miles, for PcIII or My Tuning Bike users, no harm no foul.

All they do is tell the ECU when you're in steady state anyway so it can lean off the fuel and make the bike run like shit when cruising, causing you to have to roll on the throttle, which takes it out of lean mode and surges... fuck I hate that "feature" from Honda. Anyway, I think the only people who will actually use them will be rapidbike guys without MTB. Everyone else unplugs them or overrides them.

4 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

Then how are we supposed to get the inside of the pipes clean?

Italian overhaul. Hop on a freeway onramp and run it up to the rev limiter.