BusyLittleShop

I'm surprised about all the responses of folks using synthetic. I thought the manual said not to use oil with certain kind of friction additives or something, and every synthetic I've seen has them in the oil?

The issue is the wet clutch. Friction reducers and a device that needs friction can be a bad combination!

Negative... I've been using 10/30 Energy Conserving Mobil 1 since 98

in Mr.RC45 with no clutch slipping due to oil being certified 10%

slipperier than non EC oil... and it's a bike with a tall first gear

good for 90mph that's known to incinerate clutch plates...

Whats confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet clutches

will reach a point in their life and start to slip... so someone at

some point in time added the EC 10% slipperier oil and got the clutch

to slip... in error the oil was blamed and the "don't use EC Oil" myth

was started... even the manufactures have gone along with the myth and

didn't take the time to sort out the truth...

In short a 10% slippery oil can not defeat a wet clutch... because our

clutches are not within 10% of slipping to begin with...

and if you ask me I will recommend 0 30... because

flow is what lubricates our engines not pressure...

It must be winter, the oil thread is getting active again

(I like a good oil thread.)

BLS, I have read your many posts about oil with interest. (Didn't we used to have a kind of bowing, 'I'm not worthy' emoticon? I wanted to insert that here.)

I used to be a proponent of Mobil 1 red cap for motorcycles up until a few years ago when they reformulated (or, more likely, remarketed ...) their lineup. Since then I have tried various oils in my bikes but haven't found anything I like as much as I liked red cap. I am currently using the motorcycle-specific Castrol Actevo Xtra 4T 10W-40 semi-synthetic. I like it better in the VFR than the Castrol motorcycle-specific 10W-40 conventional oil I tried last time (the semi-syn is smoother shifting). But I still don't think it's as good as the old fully synthetic red cap.

Do you endorse the above Mobil 1 0-30 Advanced Fuel Economy (which I assume is not bike-specific)? If so, I might give it a try next time around. I change my oil and filter frequently enough that viscosity breakdown from mileage is not a huge issue for me. My main concerns are smooth shifting, engine protection (antiwear) and cleaning (detergents).

Thank you Belfry...

I endorse 100% synthetic with a viscosity of 56 at start up and a

viscosity of 10 at operating temps... I also endorse warming up your

oil to operating temps before selecting first gear...

To HispanicSlammer: Just keep in mind when going to adjust the clutch because your wheel is rolling. Its 100% normal for your wheel to roll when off the ground and the motor is running. Every motorcycle in the world does it( ok, at least 8 out of 10), its only a problem if its spinning faster than normal, and when you brake it or stop it from moving it affects engine rpm at all. Otherwise I wouldn't be concerned about it.

Wheel rotation is only normal if your oil is cold during start up but not when your oil is hot during operating temps...

Larry the only Mobil 1, 0W-30 I'm finding is something called "Advanced Fuel Economy". I've included a link. Is this what you are using?

http://www.mobiloil....il_1_0W-30.aspx

It shows similar viscosity numbers to what you quoted,

@ 40 degrees C: 63

@ 110 degrees C: 11

But their 0W-40 product has higher viscosity @ 40 degrees C: 75

Motorcycle specific Racing 4T specs: not any better than Rotella really

@40 degrees C: 82

@110 degrees C: 13

And what about "Viscosity Index"? how does that figure in?

Still somewhat confused with my 6th gen since Mother Honda is recommending 10W-40, it seems I should be using the 0W-40 employing your logic.

Yes... but "Advanced Fuel Economy" is oil can marketing... its like

gas pump marketing... you filter out what is important for your

bike... namely that is its the freest flowing 30wt at start up... not

to mention and that a freer flowing oil equals free HP because it

produces less drag in your engine...

Typically, synthetic oils sport a higher viscosity index. This is

another reason why they are better suited for the wide range of

temperatures and riding conditions associated with motor-cycle use.

They require little or no Viscosity modifiers... synthetic oils

typically will hold their viscosity grade longer and thus will rate a

higher index number than non synthetic...

If there is one thing a owner has control of its the viscosity of

their oil... Mother Honda gives us the choice of either a 30 40 50

weight oil... that means a 0 40 is perfectly within the manual's

recommendations... and if you ask me I will recommend 0 30... because

flow is what lubricates our engines not pressure... an increased in

flow is an increased in cooling by the oil... an increase in flow

works harder to separate the engine parts that are under very high

stress... all in all an 0 30 with a viscosity of 56 at start up and

viscosity of 10 at operating temps works out better than 10w 30 or 10W

40 or even 20W 50 in the interest of engine longevity...

Nice debunker there! My veefalo does that, I have yet to change the clutch fluid - bled the brakes last summer but did not bleed the clutch fluid. I will try this technique out, the veefalo shifts very nicely though really. I have been using the rotella stuff myself 10w 30 - rated JA but for cars, its almost twice the price for the MA stuff and well I am with 2thdr on the cost issues - I change it twice as often as the manual recommends and I have a scott resuable filter that I really like - graded for same size particles as the paper filters and better flow. I have had it for 5 years now and it cleans up every time, I run water though it in the opposite direction to force out stuck particles and clean with degreaser on the stainless filter, wipe off the smuged up iron/steel paste on the magnet. I change the oil more often then most, and before every big cross country trip.

Thanks Miguel

Whats interesting is that according to actual viscosity numbers

published by the oil companies all 30wt oils have about the same

viscosity at 212F operating temps... whether its a 0 30 or a 5 30 or

10 30 or even a straight weight 30 they all flow close to a viscosity

of 10... but during start when the most wear occurs because we are

spinning the crank on dry bearings the viscosity of 30 weight oils

ranges from 56 (good) to 97 (poor)... it no secret that an 0 30 with a

viscosity of 56 allows oil to flow to the critical dry bearings

quicker than a straight weight 30 with a viscosity of 97... a 0 30 and

a straight 30 are the same thickness at operating temps... it just 0

30 is refined higher to flow more during critical start... the proof

in the numbers... the ability of 0 30 to flow quicker at start up

before warm up is why I switched from a 10 30 to a 0 30 in Mr.RC45...

So in the interest of longevity I use 0 30 EC oil and I warm the oil

up to 212F before selecting first gear...

Every oil company list viscosity of their oil at 2 temps 104ºF (40ºC)

start temp and 212ºF (100ºC) operating temp... the lowest viscosity at

start up reaches the critical bearings the quickest...

Mobil 1 0 30 synthetic oil...

At 40ºC / 104ºF viscosity = 56.7

At 100ºC / 212ºF viscosity = 10.3

Shell Rotella T 10W30 synthetic oil...

At 40ºC / 104ºF viscosity = 83

At 100ºC / 212ºF viscosity = 12.1

Viscosity of straight weight 30

At 40ºC / 104ºF viscosity = 97

At 100ºC / 212ºF viscosity = 11.7

You can see what the problem with oil is... its too thick at start up

temp and just right at operating temps... the lesson that should be

learned is to idle the engine up to operating temp of 100ºC / 212ºF

before selecting first gear if you wish to properly lubricate your

engine...

Pit Bull stand work great in getting the wheel off but if you wish to adjust the chain or remove the swingarm... you need a pair of hard stands under the foot pegs...

There can be a 5% difference in shift feel amongst oils, the less Grip an oil has on the clutch, the Slicker the tranny will shift.

How did you determine that one oil has a 5% shift feel versus other oils???

Thank you BLS for this great tip...

You're welcome... thanks to Miguel for a great site...

I see the comment regarding different oils providing "smooth" or "smoother shifting". I noticed the same thing only once, long ago using Motul on a 91 VX800 but have not seen the phenomena since. Does anyone have know why different oils could cause smoother shifting? I does not seem viscosity related but it seems to be brand specific.

After 25 years dealing with customers I think its not a question of

oil so much as a question of technique and clutch...

RC30 and RC45 owners will ask for the same slick shifting oil that

made their friend's RC30 and RC45 shift so smoothly after it left the

Busy Little Shop... I hate to break it to them but it wasn't the oil

that made the difference it was rider technique and the elimination of

clutch drag... so before I will dump one slick shifting oil for the

next slick shifting oil I work with them on their technique and their

clutch... then and only then will they understand that they were

fooled into thinking it was the oil when in fact it was technique and

clutch...

I think we are after the same thing... smooth shift without upsetting

the suspension... the secret is moving the foot quicker than clutch or

throttle... go easy with the clutch and throttle but move your foot

quicker... but worry there is no such thing as too quick... its the

first step of seemless shifting in MotoGp...

Here are the steps how to check your clutch for drag... your gears

can't shift smoothly if your clutch is part way engaged...

1 Place your bike on the center stand...

2 Start engine and establish a steady idle...

3 Squeeze in the clutch and hold... shift into first gear...

4 Now look at the rear wheel... if it's spinning step on the rear brake...

does this action drag down the engine rpms???

If you bike is equipped with an cable then adjust the clutch lever

knob clock wise (out) 1/4 turn and check again check for clutch

drag... if you bike is equipped with hydraulics bleed system and check

for bubbles...

Ultimately you want the rear wheel to stop spinning when the engine is

idling and first gear selected with the clutch lever is squeezed in...

BLS, does Shell sell Helix in the US as a motorcycle oil? Here Helix is for cars & Advance is for bikes.

I don't know... I mentioned Helix because it was the first 5W40 Shell oil I could find to compare with Shell's 5W40 Rotella...

End results, Rotella 5w40 in a Motorcycle, is about like a 10w40 car oil

Negative... for a 40wt its flows less during critical start up than Shell's own Helix 40wt...

Shell Helix 40wt is the same thickness as Rotella 40wt but Helix is just refined

higher to flow more... which is a premium quality in your choice of 40wt

oils... again flow is what lubricates our engines not pressure... if you wish

to stay with Rotella family look to Shells Rotella 10W 30 as a better choice...

Quote Shell Rotella T 5W40 synthetic oil...

At 40ºC / 104ºF viscosity = 95

At 100ºC / 212ºF viscosity = 15

Quote Shell Helix 5W 40 synthetic oil...

At 40ºC / 104ºF viscosity = 76

At 100ºC / 212ºF viscosity = 13.8

Quote Shell Rotella T 10W30 synthetic oil...

At 40ºC / 104ºF viscosity = 83

At 100ºC / 212ºF viscosity = 12.1

Larry you have a dirty mind.

Speaking of dirty... do you clean the oil that flings off after every ride or just let it build???

Cameleon Oiler - pretty clean installation!

Whether you intended it or not... that line is pure comedy... WTG!!!

Thanks... I just love a good oil thread...

A heavier oil film probably would have cut that Lobe wear alot. I was running 2000 mile oil changes.

Negative... it's not the flim but the additives that protect lodes... until you mic the cams you're just guessing about wear...

Hi there fellow V4 owners :)

I am wanting to try and find information on a bike I've just managed to find buried in a guys garage here in New Zealand and I thought on the off chance it may be loosely based on this RC36RR project-I purchased the bike last week as RC30/RC45s are getting too hard to find, and too pricey for me!

If you have a spare few moments I value your thoughts on the machine below, and indeed any suggestions you may offer with which I could improve it- it will be seeing track day work as well as a road bike from days gone by for me, I was racing the early 'blades on the national circuit in the mid '90's and this era of bike holds a lot of nostalgia for me- along with the fact this is an Aaron Slight(from NZ) replica:)

Specs that I know:

1991 VFR750 (RC36) frame

CBR900 Forks/Triple clamps/Brakes?/and 16" Front Wheel

RC45 Replica Body Kit

Free Flow Exhaust

Vapor digital dash with lap timers/shift light etc(can be re calibrated if I was to move to a 17 " front wheel)

Rear Suspension appears to be the factory RC36 unit with pre-load adjustable only, This is one thing I would like your thoughts on, I'm around 95KG and would like to be able to adjust Rebound/Compression or at least rebuild this one to a suitable state for track work.

I haven't found any Numbers on the engine casings as have yet to strip it down, the gentleman I bought it off also is unsure of the history and it's rumored to be an HRC motor, and he mentioned the model RC41 though I know this is prob not the case! Although I haven't had the bike long enough to Dyno, or test on the track yet it has a feeling of a lot more than the factory 100 HP, I also own a 2010 ZX14, 2007 Moto Morini Corsaro and am currently involved with Ducati NZ/Australia as an NZ tester along with writing for New Zealand's largest bike magazine,Kiwirider- and I would love to try and figure out more on this bike in order to put it in the magazine!

Here in NZ second hand or aftermarket spares for the older bikes are quite rare so any input you may be able to offer me to get this bike up to a standard I'll be happy with would be greatly appreciated, and I'd like to say the members adaptatons with the RC36RR look great :) .

I can provide better quality pics with more detail at any stage.

Regards and thank you for your time and any input,

Gav

New Zealand

Very nicely done... I saved your pics in my files... thanks for posting...

As always, Rob, very informative, great pics, and well written. I give it 4.5 William and Kate's out of 5!

Yes I agree... I'm always impressed with Rob's level of help and if he ever returns to Laguna Seca I owe him dinner at Bubba Gumps and a test hop on you know who...

God yes, would someone PLEASE, once and for all, dyno a bone-stock VTEC back-to-back without/with VTEC engaged all the time and report back with charts and graphs?

I agree... once and for all let's see what the unwanted bump in an other wise perfect V4 power band looks like on paper...

Dyno proof how VTEC destroys the linear curve of the V4... why just look at that unwanted

bump in the power band... mercy Honda...

VTEC... Vacillating Torque Engine Compartment... worked on heavy cars

but it's a failure on light bikes...

just because Gates says something, doesnt make it gospel :fing02:

True. As long as the belt lasts 5k to 10k miles I don't see a problem. Well, other than it looks hideous on an RC45, but that's just my personal opinion.

My experience is that a belt will last 3 times longer than chain...

but then again I believe a chain needs replacements at 10K...

You're not the only one who thinks its hideous... in fact the majority

of owners in the RC45 Club have threaten to break into the Busy Little

Shop and rescue Mr.RC45 so he won't suffer the indignation of an belt

mod...

its late.. i am buzzed.. but have a simple idea..

if you want to follow gates arc of a 4inch pulley do so.. with a bunch of smaller rollers.. this was drawn with a 5 inch pulley.. and exaggerated belt angle

so yeah.. add a piece of tractor to your bike..

or you could buy the 28 or 29 tooth front pulley and make a SMALLER rear pulley and get the right leangth you need. :fing02:

Thanks for the tractor part... but I already considered rollers... but the belt is still too long...

just because Gates says something, doesnt make it gospel :fing02:

It's gospel... the Gates belt is too short...

well, i know my set up works, as it was tested on a fixed axle bike... i have no clue how long the belt lasted though.. sorry

No problem... merely working and engineered correctly to last are

entirely two different objectives...

[

i didn't miss it.

you said no room... this thing out of TI, would be small and would fit there with out hitting anything..

then you can use a long belt made for the sportster.

No room means that Gates engineering recommends that the smallest

idler pulley is 4in because belt life would be considerably shorten if

it defected by any smaller of a pulley... that especially means the

skate broad wheel spring loaded John Deer combine part you dreamed up...

2 different set ups.. one with the belt on top of roller.. no teeth needed...

the other with the belt under the roller teeth may be wanted.....

Only a goober would miss the part in my thread about rollers...