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02 starter running


rhoderage
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Hoping Grum will chime in on this one!

 

Got home from a ride, stopped and put the bike in neutral on sidestand (running) to open the garage door.  Heard a weird sound, wasn't sure under the helmet.  Clutched in and put in gear and it stopped.  Curious... put in neutral, started again.  Shut off the bike.  Sound continued - it was the starter cranking!  Put bike in gear, stops.  Take key out, flip kill switch.  Click into neutral starter is engaging, even with the bike off. 

 

WTH?  How can my starter be continuously running without pressing the start button, with the kill switch on, with the key out of the bike?  But only in neutral, whether bike is on or off

 

Needless to say I left the bike in gear, disconnected the battery, and signed on to VFRD

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The starter motor is powered by the starter solenoid which is actuated by the key on/starter button pressed. If the solenoid sticks on, then even pulling the key out will not break the circuit from the battery through the solenoid to the starter and thence to ground. So your starter solenoid is faulty and should be replaced. Looks to be located on the left rear of the bike, that is also the main fuse location. 

 

image.thumb.png.80e3b430c3cf2d75ac6311c48d0faf4f.png

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Hi Rhoderage.

From what you're describing.

1. You've developed a Red wire (12v from main fuse A) to Yellow/Red wire short!

Check the Red connector at the Starter Relay.

2. It could also be an issue with Main Fuse A 30amp somehow shorting to the Yellow/Red wire terminal.

3. Or it could be an internal fault/short inside the Starter relay to the coil positive side.

 

The bottom line is your Yellow/Red wire has permanent 12v attached to it, so the Positive side of the Relay Coil is permanently seeing 12v! (Refer to the drawing Terry attached.)

 

Having this situation will mean the Starter Relay will energise Any time you're in Neutral, OR in gear with the Sidestand Up, and you pull the Clutch In. Even with Ignition to OFF........A nasty situation!

 

If the Relay had jammed closed in the energised state, or its main contacts had welded together, then you'd never stop the starter motor from running unless the battery was disconnected or you're starter motor burnt out, or your battery dies, or it goes up in smoke!!!  Fortunately, you don't have that situation.

 

Closely inspect the relay and its wiring. If the wiring is good then replace the relay as it must have an internal short issue.

 

Here's some Electrical checks you could do.

1. Bike on Center Stand, lower the Sidestand and put the bike In Gear. (this isolates the Ground side for the Starter Relay coil via the Green/Red wire for safety).

2. Remove the connector from the Starter Relay taking note of which terminal the Yellow/Red wire goes to.

3. See if you can clip your voltmeter Black lead to the battery negative terminal.

4. Ignition Switch OFF. Reconnect your Battery.

5. With your Red meter lead, probe the starter relay terminal where the Yellow/Red wire would go to. Normally, you must NOT see 12v at this terminal. If you do, then the short is internal of the starter relay. Replace the Starter Relay.

6. If step 5 is ok. Check for shorts between the Red wire and the Yellow/Red wire. Ignition Switch to ON, Kill Switch to Run and with your meter on the lowest Ohms range. Place a probe on each of these wires with the connector still disconnected from the relay. Make sure you have No continuity between these two wires. If you do have continuity (low ohms reading) then the wiring is at fault. You should ONLY have continuity when you press the Starter Switch.

 

Hopefully your Starter Motor has survived the ordeal!

 

Let's know how you get on.

Good luck.:fing02:

 

image2(2).JPG

image1(1).JPG

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Thanks so much guys.  I will get at it by this weekend... maybe after work if I get motivated (ie the wife's list is short!)

 

It was probably 7 or 8 years ago at least that I replaced the starter relay (OEM from local Honda), and the red connector in Grum's pic above which was similarly melted.  For that I ordered the red case online, and clipped out the bad sections of wiring and put it back together.

 

I appreciate the help immensely and I'm interested to take the wiring out and see how its looking today.

 

Thanks for the test suggestions Grum, thats what I was really after as I don't want to make the wrong move and mess something up worse!! 😃

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Didnt have time to test but took a quick look at the starter relay. It looked like new, for what its worth (nada).

 

Red connector has some melting.  Looks like some charring inside the terminal and maybe on the red/yellow as well. 

 

I'll do the electrical tests by the weekend... just wanted to share the quick update that we are on the right track.

 

20210622_160709.thumb.jpg.40331ca3246674e5dd53eeadaa51b8e2.jpg20210622_161134.thumb.jpg.5b65da22d1f839843cfd785f5497b652.jpg20210622_160902.thumb.jpg.f27eb2657f0b1bc5c9126bc1b2299143.jpg

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Just out or curiosity, is your ignition switch sticking?  My 02 switch starting doing that because I think the spring got worn out.  Just an easy thing to check and one more thing to eliminate before the deep dive into wiring world.

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8 hours ago, vanion2 said:

Just out or curiosity, is your ignition switch sticking?  My 02 switch starting doing that because I think the spring got worn out.  Just an easy thing to check and one more thing to eliminate before the deep dive into wiring world.

Don't see how the Ignition Switch could cause rhoderage's issue.

 

You'd need a shorted Ignition Switch, plus a shorted Starter Switch and a shorted inoperable Kill Switch.

 

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Ingnition and key switches were part of my issue.  Both were dirty and causing intermittent connection to the solenoid, which cooked it, etc.

 

Here is my long trail of tears:

 

 

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2 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

Ingnition and key switches were part of my issue.  Both were dirty and causing intermittent connection to the solenoid, which cooked it, etc.

 

Here is my long trail of tears:

 

 

 

Ignition Switch alone cannot cause the OP's issue.

 

Shipfixer you had some absolutely terrible wiring issues, you had a short issue to the Yellow/red wire, along with welded main contacts.

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11 minutes ago, Grum said:

 

Ignition Switch alone cannot cause the OP's issue.

 

Shipfixer you had some absolutely terrible wiring issues, you had a short issue to the Yellow/red wire, along with welded main contacts.

I never actually had a short in the yellow/red wire.  I was wrong about that one early on.  I believe I might have pushed the contacts of the solenoid together in the dark, under the overpass.  

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But, yeah...not "the" issue but it seems to be common, I have googled around and seen where other people also had to clean the contacts in the ignition and key switches.  Fortunately not hard to do.

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Oh...here's the other reason this is triggering brain cells.  The intermittent contacts in the key and ignition switch made diagnosing all the way through very difficult.  Like that's part of why I thought I had a ground or short in the yellow/red wire, among other things.  The resistance I was seeing on the multimeter just didn't make sense.  When I cleaned those out...boom, solid continuity back to the stripped wires.  

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8 hours ago, rhoderage said:

Didnt have time to test but took a quick look at the starter relay. It looked like new, for what its worth (nada).

 

Red connector has some melting.  Looks like some charring inside the terminal and maybe on the red/yellow as well. 

 

I'll do the electrical tests by the weekend... just wanted to share the quick update that we are on the right track.

 

20210622_160709.thumb.jpg.40331ca3246674e5dd53eeadaa51b8e2.jpg20210622_161134.thumb.jpg.5b65da22d1f839843cfd785f5497b652.jpg20210622_160902.thumb.jpg.f27eb2657f0b1bc5c9126bc1b2299143.jpg

That Red connector doesn't look good for the Red wire. What's the back of the plug look like? Is there any exposed wire that could short together?

If that Red wire or its spade connector makes any contact with the wire directly behind it being the Yellow/red then you have located your fault.

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Not the prettiest ever (see below) but I dont see the red and red/yellow wires touching.  Not the greatest pic angle.  Im wondering if the connector melted between the spade connectors for those two wires, ie inside the red connector, and we just cant see the point where they shorted.  Ill take it apart, cut the red connector open, and do the electrical tests on the wknd.  Just ordered replacement red connector, itll be a week or two in shipping so bike is down and I have some time to sort it out.

 

Shipfixer thanks for your post as well, gives more to look at if the initial suggestions dont solve the issue.

 

I had the harness recall (bike is '02) done years ago at Honda.  Ive replaced the starter relay (oem from local honda) and this connector (ebay) around 8yrs ago.  Bike has a vfrness as well.

 

20210622_161003.thumb.jpg.a748b4ce83139f33a787069800667903.jpg

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The melted red wire insulation is highly suspicious to your fault.

When that plug is pushed into the starter relay it will tend to push the spades further rearward slightly, potentially making it more prone for the two wires to touch.

Look very closely at the rear of the Yellow/Red for any potential of it touching the exposed Red wire.

 

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Totally hear what you are saying

 

Question though - could this be a red herring?  Since the starter was engaged for a longer period of time than normal (ie not normal cranking, but stuck engaged), could the longer flow of high current compared to normal have melted the connector and wiring end?  Ie this is the result, not the cause?

 

Just spitballing since I can't actually do anything else with it at the moment 😃  I sure hope it is as simple as those two wires having made contact; that's a very easy fix.

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45 minutes ago, rhoderage said:

Totally hear what you are saying

 

Question though - could this be a red herring?  Since the starter was engaged for a longer period of time than normal (ie not normal cranking, but stuck engaged), could the longer flow of high current compared to normal have melted the connector and wiring end?  Ie this is the result, not the cause?

 

Just spitballing since I can't actually do anything else with it at the moment 😃  I sure hope it is as simple as those two wires having made contact; that's a very easy fix.

 

No not likely - The current required to energize the Starter Relay coil is relatively low as its protected by only a 10amp Fuse. The Red wire carries all the current for your bikes normal ops Except for the EFI stuff handled by Fuse B. The connection for the Red wire is a common weak spot over time. Maybe when you repair the connector you could use the empty space of the connector and add an additional Red wire as there are TWO connections available. You'll notice the unused terminal on the Starter Relay is joined to where the Red wire goes - they are the same point. Utilizing the spare terminal will help with sharing the current and minimize the chances of overheated connections at the relay. See the attached Starter Wiring of before and after mod.

You will have to solder and sleeve the join you make to the main red wire.

 

 

Starter_Wiring_Mod1.png

Starter_Wirind_Mod.png

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Thanks for this... will definitely try the splitting of red wire into 2 spades into the starter relay.  All for it if it shares the load and reduces the chance of recurrence, since its now the 2nd time since I've owned the bike that I'm replacing the red connector!  Would like to put this one to bed permanently if possible.

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You still need to carry out those checks mentioned earlier, just to make sure you don't have any strange shorts at the relay itself.

 

Also run the checks for the wires mentioned at Step 6 to confirm you do or don't have a short with them. If the short is still within the wires you may need to check for shorts around the starter switch wiring. However the melted insulation doesn't look good at this stage, and its a possible cause of your problems.

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Start opening up the tape on the wiring behind the red connector... looky here... it melted through the wire insulation

 

20210626_091316.thumb.jpg.0375d8c7a8d761429fc630069d9e2e76.jpg

 

Better view ... can see the red melted into the electrical tape

 

20210626_091415.thumb.jpg.0b4b1c14fbfd9e1c867f1dd243fb7f51.jpg

 

Now we are concerned about the red and red/yellow shorting... it wasnt happening in the red connector or spade terminals or crimps... but the red and red/yellow wire kinda look melted together...

 

20210626_091435.thumb.jpg.4bd4a2f4272c0afce373ab38987a453b.jpg

 

Better pry them apart to see...

 

20210626_091518.thumb.jpg.70a36467d7d9ab433b3065326bbb1156.jpg

 

And look at this... they had melted and fused together inside the electrical tape wrap under the rubber boot. 

 

20210626_091605.thumb.jpg.c657ec1a8e8df3f1ac20a716043be8b7.jpg

 

Will be an easy fix.  Replacement connector arrives wednesday.  I will still run all the checks as well to be sure, this is just my start today...

 

Thanks so much for the help fellas.  I literally told the wife i would post on here and within an hour probably have a detailed answer of the problem and solution... and as usual, you didnt disappoint!

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Great photos good find. Glad you've found the definte short we suspected. Interesting the fact your Red wire is overheating, do you have any additional accessories that could be causing this?

 

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PC5/Autotune

Fiamm horn

Voltmeter

USB charger

speedoDRD

battery tender lead

 

I don't think any of that stuff would be a problem, some is hooked up through a fuse block

 

I don't understand either why the red wire would only be a problem at that spot... the rest of the wire looks just fine.  perhaps that part of the wire was damaged somehow, or at least the insulation?  maybe it got a bit of water in it or something; the bike was outside in freezing weather for a day back in january when we moved

 

no idea!

 

 

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Since mine is long gone, but the replacement looks like that…is that the original Honda red connector?  Did you say you already replaced the R/R, or not?

 

My bike no longer smells like hot wires on the road or after a ride since switching mine to a MOSFET 😁

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Yes i had also switched the rr to a mosfet about 8 years ago.  I really went through everything except the stator itself.  Mosfet rr.  Redid the stator yellow wire connection.  Vfrness.  New honda oem starter relay.  new red connector as it was melted. I had the wiring harness recall.done around then too .  Its been flawless since and runs at 14.3v steady...this was a real surprise

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