BSR67 Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 All, I have been researching why my recently acquired 2002 VFR will not start. It was flooding, and filled the inlets. Then, the injectors stopped 'spraying'. The only physical changes I made were to jump the bike battery off a car battery (would this fry the ECM?), and I also found that the Pair Solenoid Valve on the back of the airbox was disconnected. Is the Pair Solenoid valve linked, electrically, to the injectors? Reconnecting it coincided with the injectors not spraying. I have Fault codes 12, 13, 14 ,15 - no injectors firing. Not tested for voltage at them yet but pretty clearly there will be none! The bike ran until it flooded and 'died'. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 27, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 27, 2021 Jumping the battery from a car battery should not cause an issue, assuming it was connected correctly, positve to positive, negative to negative, hopefully while the bikes Ignition was OFF. This still keeps the voltage to 12v. The only link between the injectors and pair valve is that they both share the main EFI 12v power on the Black/White wire. This is the voltage rail you need to confirm that with Ignition to ON, you have 12v on all injectors Black/White wires, the ECM switches the Ground side, so the various ECM Grounds are also just as important. There are no ECM fault codes for the Pair valve solenoid. The Pair valve has no functional connection to the injectors. Check the state of Main Fuse B 30amp and its wiring, it can suffer badly from poor high resistance burnt connections, this is the dedicated main power for all your EFI stuff. Is this fuse blown? What is the state of the Fi light when you switch Ignition to ON. Is it permanently ON? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted April 27, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 27, 2021 IF re-connecting pair valve took out injectors, perhaps there's short in valve? Do voltage tests as Grum listed and post your measurements here. Also test all fuses. If I had penny for every time I heard "fuse looks ok" but didn't actually conduct electricity... Finally, reverse what you did. Disconnect pair-valve plug. Does it run now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 20 hours ago, Grum said: Jumping the battery from a car battery should not cause an issue, assuming it was connected correctly, positve to positive, negative to negative, hopefully while the bikes Ignition was OFF. This still keeps the voltage to 12v. The only link between the injectors and pair valve is that they both share the main EFI 12v power on the Black/White wire. This is the voltage rail you need to confirm that with Ignition to ON, you have 12v on all injectors Black/White wires, the ECM switches the Ground side, so the various ECM Grounds are also just as important. There are no ECM fault codes for the Pair valve solenoid. The Pair valve has no functional connection to the injectors. Check the state of Main Fuse B 30amp and its wiring, it can suffer badly from poor high resistance burnt connections, this is the dedicated main power for all your EFI stuff. Is this fuse blown? What is the state of the Fi light when you switch Ignition to ON. Is it permanently ON? Hi Grum, Great advice, thanks. I was fastidious about connecting the car battery with the ignition off. The FI light is on when I turn the ignition on. The fuel pump primes. Will be measuring the voltages on the injectors on Friday - annoyingly I work away in the week. Will also trace the 30 Amp fuse - the bike still cranks - would it do this with a bad fuse/connection? thanks BSR67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 15 hours ago, DannoXYZ said: IF re-connecting pair valve took out injectors, perhaps there's short in valve? Do voltage tests as Grum listed and post your measurements here. Also test all fuses. If I had penny for every time I heard "fuse looks ok" but didn't actually conduct electricity... Finally, reverse what you did. Disconnect pair-valve plug. Does it run now? Will try reversing on Friday when I'm back home, and will certainly post the measurements. Hoping it's something simple ..... ! Thanks BSR67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 28, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 28, 2021 1 hour ago, BSR67 said: The FI light is on when I turn the ignition on. The fuel pump primes. Yeah but does the Fi light go out after the fuel pump primes, approx 2 seconds. Or does it remain ON ? 1 hour ago, BSR67 said: Will also trace the 30 Amp fuse - the bike still cranks - would it do this with a bad fuse/connection? Your starting system gets its power from Main Fuse A 30amp, the one thats on the Starter Relay see attached. Main Fuse B 30amp sits next to the starter relay. However, if you are hearing your Fuel Pump prime at Ignition Switch On then the fuse must be o.k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 Thanks - I'll check the FI Light on Friday evening. Not certain whether it goes out - I was messing about with a jumper wire on the diagnostic plug at the time. I have the IAT unplugged because I've removed the air box. Would that leave the FI light on? Sorry if I appear vague - I'll be far clearer when I am back home with the bike on Friday. Regards BSR67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 28, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 28, 2021 The FI light being permanently on is and indication the ECM is unpowered = no injectors or spark, Or it has detected an active diagnostic fault while riding (Sidestand Up). But the fact the fuel pump is going through its 2sec prime would mean the ECM is getting power, sorry about that one, the Fi light I imagine will be turning off after fuel prime.? So back to confirming voltage at the injectors and confirming all ECM grounds and power. The ECM has nicely colour coded wires. The Black/White wires will be 12v supply, make sure you measure battery voltage on these wires with Ignition to On and Kill switch to run. The Grounds will be the Green wires and the Green/Pink wires make sure these measure zero ohms or continuity back to the battery negative terminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 Thanks Grum. Excellent guidance and advice which is appreciated. The battery on the bike is rubbish - it lasts about 30 seconds and then won't crank. When the FI light (I think) stayed on, it was not connected to the charged battery via jump leads. I'll call my son and ask him to turn the ignition on - check for pump prime and see if the FI Light goes out. So wish I had loaded the bike in my van and brought it down to work with me so I can work through this! Frustrating! Appreciate your patience. BSR67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 28, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 28, 2021 Just remember a dying battery can cause a multitude of issues. While cranking if the battery falls below a certain threshold, the injectors will not function. So absolutely, a healthy battery is vital, and once running immediately check your charging system voltage, needs to be in the order of 13.5 to 14.5v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Grum said: Just remember a dying battery can cause a multitude of issues. While cranking if the battery falls below a certain threshold, the injectors will not function. So absolutely, a healthy battery is vital, and once running immediately check your charging system voltage, needs to be in the order of 13.5 to 14.5v As I typed that last message it did occur to me that this could be down to a poor battery. I have ordered a new one and have had notification that it has been delivered to my home. When the bike was linked to the car battery, the injectors triggered (I could see the mist). When back in the garage, I was relying on the poor bike battery and I could not see the mist. I could be having a rosy cheeked moment here when I get home on Friday!!! Thanks BSR67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 28, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 28, 2021 Ok then. I thought you were having injector issues while you also had the battery jumpered to the car battery!! Good luck getting it sorted, looks like a lot of butchered wiring issues from the previous owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 11 minutes ago, Grum said: Ok then. I thought you were having injector issues while you also had the battery jumpered to the car battery!! Good luck getting it sorted, looks like a lot of butchered wiring issues from the previous owner. OK - so my son popped down to the garage and video'd switching on. Fuel pump primes and the FI light stays on. Will update on Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 28, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 28, 2021 1 hour ago, BSR67 said: OK - so my son popped down to the garage and video'd switching on. Fuel pump primes and the FI light stays on. Will update on Friday. Hmmm that's not normal, Fi Light should be OFF after fuel prime, or possibly blinking a fault code. I trust you don't have the diagnostic shorting link still fitted? This could also mean your ECM is missing a power source, or maybe its because you're son is trying this with a near dead battery. Reassess this (and everything else!) with a known good battery. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Grum said: Hmmm that's not normal, Fi Light should be OFF after fuel prime, or possibly blinking a fault code. I trust you don't have the diagnostic shorting link still fitted? This could also mean your ECM is missing a power source, or maybe its because you're son is trying this with a near dead battery. Reassess this (and everything else!) with a known good battery. Good luck. Grum I haven't left the jumper wire in. The battery is flat - it won't turn the engine over - it tries, gives up and you just get the click. My son is placing the new battery on charge and I'll ask him to fit it when full, and post the result. Thanks BSR67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 28, 2021 Author Share Posted April 28, 2021 Ok, so brand new battery fitted and fully charged. On turning the ignition on, the FI comes on for two seconds, blinks momentarily and then stays on. The fuel pump primes. It doesn’t start. The IAT sea sensor is disconnected. Not sure if that would keep the FI light on? See video Will try again on Friday. IMG_6274.mov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 29, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 29, 2021 Very short video BSR67. Fi light and its display can be confusing. I'm wondering if your bike is on its Center Stand with the Side Stand Up? This would account for an active fault in the riding state with the Fi light being fully ON. So with the side stand DOWN it should be blinking a Code 9 for your IAT sensor (seeing its currently not connected) after the fuel prime period is complete. Once you connect the IAT you should no longer have the blinking code as it is no longer an active fault, but the IAT fault will be stored in memory for later recall and deletion if required. Given all your issues, over fueling, fault codes, dead battery, wiring disconnected, and no start. I'd be checking these points. 1. Make sure all sensors are connected, Your PAIR Valve and Secondary Air Intake Valve are not sensed by the ECM and will not have any effect on starting. In fact even with the IAT or MAP sensors electrically disconnected the bike should still start. 2. Make sure all vacuum hoses are properly connected to all devices, make sure there are no vacuum hose cracked or broken, check the MAP Sensor vac hose to the five way joiner and that the other four hoses are good. 3. Delete all stored ECM fault codes. 4. What is the state of the Fuel? Is it clean and fresh or has it been in the bike for many months going off and accumulating water! If the bike has sat for years without use then this could gum up your injectors, requiring professional cleaning, flow balancing and testing. 5. Attempt to start the bike, hopefully the new battery will have sorted your injector fault code issue! If bike doesn't Start - 6. Check for any new Fault Codes. 7. Verify Injector operation AND Ignition Spark, check the plugs they may be fouled and in need of replacement. Check for voltages and Grounds already mentioned. If Ignition and Injectors power and grounds are all good, then you may have a flooded engine scenario. Even starting a cold engine and running it for a short period and turning it off before the engine has warmed can create this scenario, even ethanol blended fuel can further exacerbate this situation. Go through the flooded start procedure as attached, this will help to purge the cylinders of excess fuel. And again make sure that the FPR is not causing an issue by flooding cylinders 3 and 4.! And remember to keep the battery well charged while doing all this testing. Good Luck lets know how you get on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 29, 2021 Author Share Posted April 29, 2021 Thank Grum, Really appreciate your patience. Sorry, yes with video is short - relying on my son! I'm home tomorrow evening so will absolutely run through your list. I do have code 9 for the IAT. The full code list is: 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. Only 12-15 would shut the FI down as you know. The bike is on centre stand with side stand up. The vacuum hoses do look rather aged - will strip and check there are no leaks. Will clear codes, try again and report back. Should have brought the bike down to work with me! Massively frustrating! Thanks BSR67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 29, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 29, 2021 1 minute ago, BSR67 said: The bike is on centre stand with side stand up. OK that explains why the Fi light is fully On. Good luck with everything when you're back at the bike tomorrow. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 29, 2021 Author Share Posted April 29, 2021 Just now, Grum said: OK that explains why the Fi light is fully On. Good luck with everything when you're back at the bike tomorrow. Cheers. Thanks Grum, really appreciate your advice. BSR67😎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 30, 2021 Author Share Posted April 30, 2021 Hey Grum I've had a quick look - will look in earnest tomorrow. However, with side stand DOWN the FI light goes out. Engine cranks, not firing/trying. With the IAT DISCONNECTED the FI light flashes 9 times - and I do NOT have the jumper wire in. The video shows this. Will update tomorrow BSR67 IMG_6295.MOV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 30, 2021 Author Share Posted April 30, 2021 The bike is sparking. New plug though! BSR67 IMG_6297.MOV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 30, 2021 Author Share Posted April 30, 2021 Ok, so I have voltage and resistances across all four injectors within spec. See picture! Confused. BSR67lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSR67 Posted April 30, 2021 Author Share Posted April 30, 2021 The pump is sending fuel to the rail. I’ve cracked the rear rail feed banjo and fuel is being delivered by the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted April 30, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted April 30, 2021 Ok so you have fuel injection and spark. Good values for the injectors. And you now have only the IAT code because its not connected and is the only current fault, that makes sense. No injector fault codes, and new battery appears to be working well, cranking speed is very good. Get the IAT re connected and go through the steps mentioned above. - As mentioned - what is the state of the fuel in the tank? - Are you seeing or smelling raw fuel from the exhaust? - Have you actually removed and checked the state of the spark plugs? They may be fouled and in need of replacement. Be worth fitting a new set of NGK IMR9B-9H's Just get a pink screen for your spark video. And the other only shows the ignition switch and down side stand, cant see instrument panel, doesn't matter much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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