Slow burn 5th gen build - old skool kool!

[Stray]

Messing about with radiator sizes today but nothing is perfect. Got my hands on some grubby ones today off a “92 VFR750 and CBR600 F3, to compare with the F4i unit in a previous post. 

 

Here you can see the size difference between them (from top): 

1. VFR 800 5th gen rads

2. VFR 750 1992 rad

3. CBR F4i curved rad

4. CBR F3 curved rad

 

The CBR and VFR750 units are the same width, but the curved roads have an extra 2cm surface area. 
 

CBR F3 and F4i rads stacked. The F4i has 3 more rows in height. 
 

VFR750 rad stacked on top shows it’s 3 rows shorter than the F3, and 6 rows shorter than the F4i. 

Curved F3 rad tried on for size. Width is fine but the very bottom might make contact if forks are fully compressed. I could easily remove the lower row but would prefer a cleaner solution. Hose coupling on left is turned downwards, whereas I’d prefer it facing backwards. 
 

Advantage of the curve is there’s more room for a possible fan on the left (as you sit on the bike) because the cylinder head isn’t central and there’s a bit more room there. But would have to be a very small fan! 

Mounted slightly off centre as mounting eyelets get in the way. These will be ground off. 
 

 

VFR750 ‘92 rad tried on for size. Significantly better clearance here with no danger of wheel contact at full compression. Advantage is filler neck and hose barbs are all in the right place and orientation. Disadvantage is almost no room for a fan and reduced cooling capacity (compared to F3 and F4i). 
 

 

 

 

 

Easiest route is the 750 but I’d like the increased cooling from the CBRs. Also, I’d like to mount a fan if possible for traffic. 
 

Might have to go with a custom rad after all…

 

And here’s a pic of the two 5th gens side-by-side. The race bike (behind) feels light as a toy compared to the stock one (in front). Even pulling them up off the side stand it’s obvious which is lighter. 
 

 

[Stray]

Was at Donington Park on a cruiser getting embarrassed by the superbikes.

 

My favourite bike there was a gorgeous VFR750 belonging to track instructor John Chambers who’s won multiple awards in the vintage motorcycle races on it.
 

 

 

Aside from good looking this thing is FAST and he was instructing some upcoming BSB riders on it. Of course John is very talented but he was teaching some of the fastest riders in the country how to go faster on a VFR and it really tickled me! 
 

Check out his socials if you’re into that sort of thing and you’ll read all about the bike there.

 

 

 

My welder friend will be machining some rearset adapters for the VFR750. 

 

Also came across some other lovely classic bikes being raced pretty hard - these guys are running in the intermediate group and were overtaking modern machines! 
 

 

These two were raced by a very attractive young lady who’s less than 5 feet tall and seriously capable. 
 

 

 

 

Nice to see old bikes being used as they were intended and not turned into dead museum pieces. 

[Stray]

Back in the house of pain, I got busy removing a Datatool S4 alarm system fitted by a professional (could tell by the splicing). 
 

How hard could it be? Famous last words…

 

Took 3 hours of removing parts, tracing wires, unraveling looms and carefully cutting to get it all off. The fitter butchered my loom real good, cutting into almost every circuit. Removing the alarm requires bridging and resoldering all the wires he originally butchered, which is a lot. 
 

Finally, the hateful thing was removed and ignition starts fine. But the mess it left has made me quite angry. Why would they need to splice the red LED light into my main fuse wire? Unnecessary damage.

 

 

And I broke one of the main fuse plug clips trying to get it off, further damaging the loom (the two white spots near my thumb). Will have to cable tie it now.
 

  

If anyone wants the alarm they can fish it out of my bin…

[bmart]

As I am so fond of saying, if it involves a human, it is going to be hard. Don't get me going about "experts."

[Skids]

4 hours ago, bmart said:

As I am so fond of saying, if it involves a human, it is going to be hard. Don't get me going about "experts."

The alternative definition of an expert; an 'ex' is a has-been and a '(s)pert' is a drip under pressure.  😁

 

Only works if you speak it, not write it. 

[bmart]

You're not wrong! The bug I joke about is that everyone wants to be called one, but no one wants to be one. That generation is dying out and what we're replacing it with are people who read something, then claim being an expert. I've recently defriended one of these nincompoops in real life only to find out that no one understood why it took me so long to recognize. This guy would fight for days about something he read, only to find out he ws wrong...then picks up a new topic to fight about. I thought that he wanted to learn. Instead, he wanted to know and be right. I like to give people a break, but life is too short! There's a mediocre book called The Death of Expertise that drives it home.

[Skids]

Did he read it on Faceberk, Twatter or done other such places? It has to be true if it's on social meeja! 

[JZH]

On 3/7/2023 at 12:49 AM, Stray said:

Back in the house of pain, I got busy removing a Datatool S4 alarm system fitted by a professional (could tell by the splicing). 
 

How hard could it be? Famous last words…

 

Took 3 hours of removing parts, tracing wires, unraveling looms and carefully cutting to get it all off. The fitter butchered my loom real good, cutting into almost every circuit. Removing the alarm requires bridging and resoldering all the wires he originally butchered, which is a lot. 
 

Finally, the hateful thing was removed and ignition starts fine. But the mess it left has made me quite angry. Why would they need to splice the red LED light into my main fuse wire? Unnecessary damage.

 

 

And I broke one of the main fuse plug clips trying to get it off, further damaging the loom (the two white spots near my thumb). Will have to cable tie it now.
 

  

If anyone wants the alarm they can fish it out of my bin…

 

FYI, I think CycleTerminal.com in the USA has those red covers (new aftermarket).  Or you can grab one from another bike...

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

 

[Dangeruss]

On 3/7/2023 at 7:54 AM, bmart said:

You're not wrong! The bug I joke about is that everyone wants to be called one, but no one wants to be one. That generation is dying out and what we're replacing it with are people who read something, then claim being an expert. I've recently defriended one of these nincompoops in real life only to find out that no one understood why it took me so long to recognize. This guy would fight for days about something he read, only to find out he ws wrong...then picks up a new topic to fight about. I thought that he wanted to learn. Instead, he wanted to know and be right. I like to give people a break, but life is too short! There's a mediocre book called The Death of Expertise that drives it home.

 

I think JFK summed it up nicely, and it seems to apply more and more every day;

 

"We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought"

[Stray]

Just an update to say I finally got to meet the man behind the legend - MOHAWK! 
 

He made the epic journey to Mallory Park race circuit and we hung out for the day along with a few mates. Going fast on motorcycles: is there a better way to waste your time/money? 
 

What a pleasure to meet the chap whose mods I’ve copied (and many others have done likewise) and who has forgotten more about VFRs than I will ever know.
 

Truly an honour! 
 

Unfortunately I wasn’t on the VFR as it had snowed that week and couldn’t get the bike MOTd (registered/roadworthy test for our non UK brethren) in time. Yes, it was bloody cold on track!!!
 

Next time on the VFR though…

 

One of the instructors was John Chambers with that beautiful black VFR750 (see previous post on 7 March) and he enjoyed toying with us on track. Can’t believe how that thing flies. 

 

Mohawk, thanks for coming along mate. It was truly an honour and a pleasure to meet you in the flesh! 

[Stray]

Was going to post this on one of the various “remove rear axle” threads but they’re all archives so it’s going here. 
 

The commuter 5th gen was project was coming along nicely but becoming hard to wheel froward, almost like brakes were binding. 
 

Turns out they were, but the rear hub was a bit stiff. Also could t spin it to adjust cabin no matter how much force I applied.  So I decided (reluctantly) to pull it all apart and have a look. Changes tyres and wheel bearings in the front so why not got he extra mile? 

 

Used a block of wood to hold the axle still and a rattle gun on the sprocket side nut. Came off OK. 
 

 

 

Couldn’t slacken chain tension (even with pinch bolt all the way removed and a screwdriver jammed in the bearing holder split). So o removed the sprocket to get the chain off. 12mm socket on one side and the Allen wrench leaned against the swingarm on the other (to stop the axle spinning). 
 

 

Sprocket and chain came off OK. 
 

Removed brake disk circlip with needle nose pliers and everything came out easily enough.
 

 

You can see the grit and filth on the hub carrier and on the hub itself. These were probably causing the hub not to spin. 

 

There was some alarming damage to the sprocket side of the axle bolt. Looks like rust and the plating seems worn through. Possibly from spinning in the bearing race? 
 

 

Other side of the axle doesn’t look much better. 
 

 

Fearing I’d need a replacement axle (cost is more than the bike!) I tried rubbing the buildup off with an abrasive brush…and it came off! Although the plating is still worn…

 

 

Then moved onto a hard buffing wheel and it looked a bit better…

 

 

…and then a final polish with a soft buffing wheel to look better still. 

 

 

Quick wipe with some brake cleaner to remove buffing compound and dirt. Looks half decent, although it’s not going to bring back the lost plating. 
 

 

 

This is the same angle as the damaged section further up this post. Looking much better. 

 

Bearing inner races look decent. Have them a wipe. They turn smoothly without notching but are a bit stiff. Could be what caused the problem in the first place. Think they’ll have to come out and be regreased. 
 

 

I’m starting to fall out of love with single sided swingarms…
 

[VFR78]

Just about to launch into the same work myself, but seriously considering getting a new bearing carrier complete and refurbishing the old one for future servicing. Rear end is still good, but after rebuilding the front, I figured why not do it all. A two sided swing arm sure has its benefits.

[airwalk]

When I did this job on my ‘95 it was a real hassle getting those 2 brgs inside the hub/adjuster piece. Hope you have better luck(think they were NLA from Honda in Canada, had to source from a brg supply in the next province over)

[Stray]

Well I got those sprocket side bearings out…eventually! 
 

Honda calls them one bearing but it’s actually two bearings joined together by a little plastic spacer that clips in and holds them both together to form a single bearing. 
 

Used a socket extension with a socket fitted on backwards. The back of the socket has a wider surface area than the front and is slightly sloped, so fits into the bearing inner race without damaging the seal. 
 

Ideally bearings should be driven out using the outer race by this is completely hidden by the hub, so had to use inner race. Big f’n hammer helps as you’re driving out two bearings, not one. 
 

 

Luckily didn’t damage the needle roller bearing or it’s seal (wheel side) with a miss hit. 
 

The bearing halves look OK. Move smoothly and seem to have some grease inside.
 

 

Not sure how “stiff” these things should be and what to repack them with? I was expecting wheel bearings to spin freely with a slap downwards, but these only move while the hand is making solid contact. They stop immediately when not being pushed. Is this normal? Could the bearings be shot and still move smoothly, or am I expecting too much? 
 

Also, I’m starting to think the axle should be dry in the sprocket side bearings. It should fit tight and make the bearings spin. We don’t want the axle spinning in the bearing inner race, no? Perhaps it should even be Loctited. Again, am I overthinking this? 
 

Tomorrow I’ll clean out the old grease and repack with some Redline CV 2 Red Molly (says it’s good for wheel bearings) unless someone tells me otherwise. Also, I’ve heard they shouldn’t be packed full of grease - too much apparently causes churning and high temperatures. Half-full is correct (apparently?). 

[JZH]

Arguably, you shouldn't re-use bearings you've driven out by the inner race.  All those hammer blows went through the ball bearings to the outer race.  Even if they still roll, I wouldn't trust them again.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

[Stray]

Got to cleaning the bearings with some stale petrol (mixed with some used engine oil that was in the jug) and  a toothbrush. They came out looking good. Started spinning freely again which is reassuring. 
 

 

All traces of old grease removed. Washed until the petrol came out 

 

Needle roller bearing (wheel side) also washed clean of old grease.
 

 

Then used the same tub of petrol to wash the crud off the swingarm. Cut through it beautifully! 

 

 

 

Petrol is so effective I’ll be using it more in future. 

[Mohawk]

As Stray says we had a little meet up at Mallory, a place I have never bern to before. It was great to meet Stray he has an infectious enthusiasm for all things two wheeled. Was good to put a face to the name & meet some other folks. 
 

Here's a pic of our intrepid hero on a Cough Cough, XJR1300, sorry still taken from a video.

He had a long car drive the next day, I said he would be driving with both hands on the bottom of the wheel going "Ooh me arms" after muscling that thing around all day. He was doing well chasing down a guy on a Duc 916/996 thingy. Luck for him there were many enforced breathers as fellow enthusiasts repeatedly swapped bikes for undergrowth or gravel traps, with many thinking race rubber with tyre warmers would cut the mustard on the cold track surface ! 
 

If anyone does go to Mallory watch out for the off road excursion that Sally Sat Nav will take you if you are unlucky like me 😂 Was interesting to see how my F-pace handled the deep water filled ruts on the badly cut up lane 😳

 

Was good to meet you Stray & Lee. Next time will be on 2 wheels. 
And thanks for picking up the lunch tab 👍

 

Now get that MoT

[Stray]

Decided to have a go at repacking the bearings.
 

 

Used the palm cupping technique: put a blob of grease in your palm and scoop bits of it with the open end of the bearing until it’s forced into every crevice. Then rolled the bearing to coat the balls and draw grease into the unseen recesses.
Grease should fill about half way up as too much can cause churning and heat. 

 

Decided to repack the needle roller bearing (wheel side) too. 
 

 

Struggled to get the grease behind the rollers, to be honest. This bearing rolled nicely before cleaning. Probably should have just scraped old grease off the top and applied a new layer, rather than wash this one with petrol.
 

Any advice on getting the grease behind the rollers? 

 

Also applied a light smear of copper ease onto the swingarm clamp sliding surfaces. It’s really light and you can see through it -  hoping it will stave off corrosion. 
 

 

Now need to drive the repacked double ball bearing back into the hub. Wish me luck! 

[Stray]

2 hours ago, Mohawk said:

As Stray says we had a little meet up at Mallory

Very good of you to venture out so far, mate. They say you should never meet your heroes but meeting Mohawk is a highlight of the year! 
 

 

[airwalk]

To get grease behind rollers heat it until fairly thin & apply with soft clean toothbrush or similar. Good luck reusing that pair of ball bearings, they’re likely damaged even if you can’t feel/detect it…

[Stray]

On 3/25/2023 at 4:04 PM, airwalk said:

To get grease behind rollers heat it until fairly thin & apply with soft clean toothbrush or similar. Good luck reusing that pair of ball bearings, they’re likely damaged even if you can’t feel/detect it…

Very good hint mate, thank you. 
 

Unfortunately I’ve plugged if full of Red Line fully synthetic grease with the highest temperature rating known to man and famous for staying put at all temperatures. It’s not going anywhere! 

[Stray]

Folks, I must apologise for confusing things by working on two 5th hens in this thread. Must be hard to follow. 
 

Last few posts have been about my bone stock scabby old winter donkey. She even has the PAIR system and stock exhaust, so no mods other than the open airbox. This one will eat a steady diet of road salt and abuse. The next few posts are about this same donkey, after which I’ll get back to the race bike. 
 

So I balanced the throttle bodies (thanks to the guide on here)…

 

…and drilled the fairings for R&G crash bungs using the dent in the duct tape technique…

…and using the spacer as a stencil to scribe a hole the correct size…

 

…for a perfect fit. 

 

Now she can lie down without too much worry. 

[Stray]

Now back to the rear hub. I decided to stop being frugal and just buy new bearings. Not cheap but at least I now have peace of mind that they won’t let me down. In the end I’ve conceded the advice given by airwalk and JZH not to reuse bearings that were pounded out by the inner race. Thanks for keeping me honest, chaps! 
 

Had to buy Honda OEM in the end as even specialist bearing suppliers couldn’t get hold of these. Bought a set from an eBay seller and they had to be returned as they were generic and didn’t have seals in the right places. 

 

See the generic IKO (front) compared to OEM (rear). OEM has a seal that’s missing from the IKO. 
 

 

Now with seal removed to show the groove in which it locates. The IKO cannot accommodate a seal of any sort so water ingress could ruin the bearing. Even with bearing and its codes in hand, I couldn’t get one of these at a specialist supplier. Honda had them made especially for this application. 
 

 

Hammer and sockets used to push bearing into one end…

 

…whilst vice is used to push other bearings into the other end. 
 

 

Chose to seal the swingarm opening to stop water getting to the adjuster through the tunnel (swingarm is open near the front, where the shock mounts). Used a thin piece of PET plastic from a Pepsi Max bottle (other soft drinks are available but Max is the best). 
 

 

Lined the opening with sealer (the adjuster races are smeared with copper ease)…

 

 

…and clamped it in place overnight. 
 

 

 

Bit more copper ease on the hub and she slipped in beautifully. 

 

 

Also changed sprocket carrier bearing. This one is also expensive and hard to source but I did find a heavy duty equivalent at the specialist supplier. 
 

 

Pushed out the old one with a socket mounted in reverse from the inside…
 

 

…and drove in the new one with that same socket on its face. 
 

 

Sprocket looked good so I cleaned and flipped it. Easy peasy. 

 

Redline synthetic CV grease for the splines…
 

…and new seals/o rings throughout. 

Now all back together and ready to take the wheels with new Michelin Pilot Road 5 tyres (can’t wait to scrub them in!). 
 

 

Then I got to bleeding the CBS. What a colossal pain in the ass that job was! 
 

I won’t lie, it took 3 days of pumping and clamping and leaving it all engaged overnight to get rid of the bubbles. Brakes are now good, although there’s very little travel on the front lever before it stops. 
 

Out with the old disgusting fluid…

 

 

…and in with a Castrol SRF across what felt like 100 bleed points. 
 

 

 

 

 

Finally got it all done! 

[Stray]

Stumbled across some crusty old VTR 1000 F forks (right way up model along with 9.0 linear springs and thought I’d try fit the VTR internals into the VFR forks. 
 

VTR forks needed medieval levels of blowtorch to separate. See how the bushings are chewed up from all the slide hammering! 
 

 

Bike hoisted up and old forks out. 
 

 

VFR fork stanchion (left) is 6mm shorter than VRY (right). This surprised me as I thought the VTR would be shorter. 

 

 

All other bits are virtually interchangeable as they’re both 31mm units from Showa, and from the same era.  

 

VFR cartridge (left) is 6mm shorter than the VTR cartridge (right). Note VFR has a longer spring. 
 

 

 

Cleaned up rusty putting in VFR fork with cola (Pepsi Max) and tinfoil. PO had sanded them badly at some point. 
 

 

Came out reasonably well. 
 

 

Next stage was a bit of polishing with a buffing wheel. 
 

 

Filled the worst pits with some superglue and left to cure overnight. Forms a blister over each pit. 

 

 

Next day cut the pits off with a blade.
 

 

Came out decent enough but I wanted it as smooth as possible so got out the buffing wheels. 

 

Fist coarse cut…

 

…followed by fine cut…

 

 

And then some Autosol on a flap wheel (sorry, no photo). Came out well enough to last a couple seasons but stanchions will need replacing soon. 
 

Now for some low friction SKF seals (from a dirt bike shop) and a set of OEM bushings to bring it all together. 
 

 

Used an old plastic pipe and a hose clamp to drive in the inner bushing. 
 

 

On the next leg I tried duct taping the old bushing onto the stanchion and driving in the new one. This worked better. 
 

 

Used plastic bag to slide the new seals over the fork. This helps protect the lips from tearing. Lubed it all up and filled the gap between oil and dust seal with grease (all tips from Dave Moss - God bless YouTube!). 
 

 

 

Now compare the VFR cartridge (left) to VTR (right) in the fork. VTR sits about 6mm higher so spacer need to be cut down 6mm. 
 

 

 

Found a guide to improve VTR cartridge and took it all apart. Includes grinding the damper rod to a taper (it’s stepped from the factory) and drilling a relief hole above the rebound valve. If you’re doing this, search “Rogered VTR fork cartridge” for the guide. Took me 3 hours to complete. 
 

 

Now to fill up with Motul 7.5wt fork oil and 130mm air gap, using the syringe and hose method to suck out any excess. Must pump fork and cartridge before setting oil level. 
 

 

Then I set the fork cap distance using another online guide. The damper rod needs to be two turns out from fully seated, then fix the preload part distance with the locknut.
 

Once it’s all buttoned up, I fitted some Proline neoprene fork gaiters over the exposed part to protect from further corrosion. These guys can make to measure but I bought 41mm x 220mm off the shelf and it fits fine. 
 

 

Forks all done and mounted! 
 

Now to book a track day and see what she’ll do…

[Stray]

Last night I spent some time setting up suspension sag, which is tough because everyone seems to give different optimum numbers. In the end, for fast road riding I settled on: 

- 39mm front with rider (30mm static)

- 27mm rear with rider (10mm static on highest shock setting) 

 

Bit of a compromise but best I could do with stock shock. 
 

Then took her out to Mallory Park for a shakedown! 

 

 

 

Bike was new to me and perhaps I shouldn’t have been doing a track day the very next day after building a bike, but I was really impressed with her handling. Could even tighten up my turn mid-corner! 
 

Started off gingerly feeling the bike out although we did manage to lean her some on the first session. 
 

Started scrubbing off the Michelin elephant in session 1…

 

 

…by session 7 there was very little elephant left! 
 

 

In fact by the last session the VFR was unstoppable. Miles faster than my other bike and blowing away R1s and MV675s in the middle group. Couldn’t be happier. 
 

But the best thing by far: THAT NOISE at full throttle!!!

 

Managed to snap a few pics with interesting machines, including this one of a beautiful VFR750 1988 model that belongs to a track instructor called John Chambers. This thing is FAST!

 

 

 

Also interesting to see the old V4 parked alongside the new V4. I lusted after that Aprilia…

 

 

On the way back there was a bike night with band (Wolfskin) in the sun-drenched beer garden. Bikes, burgers, beer and rock & roll. What a way to end the day!
 

 
 

 

One interesting observation: 

 

I was advised to run 31psi front and  26psi in the rear (cold; 33 and 28 warm), which really helped the bike feel planted. In fact I ride it back from the track this way (forgot to revert before leaving) and I really like how it felt on the road. 
 

So is the whole 36 front and rear thing just a myth? I’m a heavy rider (around 100kg in gear) and the comparatively low psi felt great. Any thoughts?