Member Contributer Grum Posted January 2, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 2, 2021 2 hours ago, squirrelman said: i've had to replace one starter clutch case due to cracking. i suppose a small piece of steel could have broken off somewhere and stuck to a pulser coil.............but then it wouldn't fire on two cylinders i think. Wasn't referring to the potential of a damaged Ignition Pulser Coil from something broken off. More so the outer protrusions of the starter outer that pass by the Pulser coil. If one of these protrusions (reluctors or magnets) were bent inwards or somehow damage or broken (I'm not familiar with how these are formed on the starter outer) then there would be an incorrect pulse train sent to the ICM potentially screwing perhaps channel #1. Just a thought as it appears everything else has been checked. Grasping at straws a bit! Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted January 2, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 2, 2021 1 hour ago, squirrelman said: you've got grum stumped, and that's not easy ! Hey m8. Thanks for your vote of confidence, but have been stumped numerous times!!!. Tricky trying to sort out invisible bikes via a keyboard.!!! Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted January 2, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 2, 2021 18 hours ago, Dougwfresh said: Did test #2 icu disconnect, key on , at icm 16p connecter Each read 0.8/0.7 Hmmm interesting... should be battery voltage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 2, 2021 Author Share Posted January 2, 2021 To make sure I did the test right.... Icm discontent, key on, black Probe to ground(frame)and red probe to one of the four trigger wires for the coils. But test them at the icm connection. Test all four wires. Whats the correct multimeter setting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted January 2, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 2, 2021 yes, that's correct procedure. Multimeter range can be in 0-20v range. I think the 0.7-0.8v reading is clue to something. Not sure what at moment. Gonna look at overall wiring diagram to see if there's anything else that can be bleeding through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 2, 2021 Author Share Posted January 2, 2021 I just did the test couple more times again in the same order in the 2v setting this time. They all read a little jumpy at first then count down to .001 and hold. Then sometimes the just 0. Idk. I think the first tests I was in v~ instead of V/: I also tested with a test light same way. No light on any wire. All tests I have done is with the kill off. I did another test with the kill on with a test light and and when I test red with yellow #4it icm plug makes the fuel pump jump/pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted January 2, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 2, 2021 32 minutes ago, Dougwfresh said: I just did the test couple more times again in the same order in the 2v setting this time. They all read a little jumpy at first then count down to .001 and hold. Then sometimes the just 0. Idk. I think the first tests I was in v~ instead of V/: I also tested with a test light same way. No light on any wire. All tests I have done is with the kill off. I did another test with the kill on with a test light and and when I test red with yellow #4it icm plug makes the fuel pump jump/pump. M8. With Ignition ON and Kill Switch to RUN and you have disconnected the plug from the ICM. Probing the 4ea coil trigger output wires of the plug (not the ICM) you should see virtual battery voltage on each of the 4 wires. The Black/White wire is feeding 12v to the Ignition Coil Primary winding of all 4 coils. This voltage will also be present on the 4ea trigger wires going to the ICM. So meter set to DC Volts and your meter black lead to battery Negative. You should have near 12v reading for each trigger wire at the plug! See attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 2, 2021 Author Share Posted January 2, 2021 with that test I have 12V+ on each trigger wire. The black and white has 12V+ as well. Tested all or orther wires on the 16p plug and they are all 0 except a light blue wire that has a low reading of .08. Which is not shown in my Wiring diagram or anyone I’ve seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted January 2, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 2, 2021 sorry, I forgot kill switch should be ON for tests. Looks good, all 4 coil are getting power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 2, 2021 Author Share Posted January 2, 2021 Yes, all 12V+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyrwbvfr Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Hi there Doug. Just read all thru this thread and maybe I can help. Have you determined if the ICM output for spark #1 is bad? The pulse generators should be OK since it triggers in pairs. A bad pulser would/should not fire both 1 and 3, not just 1. You swapped outputs from ICM 3 to plug 1 and it worked? Then 3 did not? Seems failure follows the ICM. Someone clarify if I'm wrong. Yes, it's hard to remotely troubleshoot. I was going to say check grounds but that should affect it all. Jumping in here late and following it was a bit confusing. Sorry but maybe, you can summarize once more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted January 4, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 4, 2021 On 1/1/2021 at 5:04 PM, Grum said: Wasn't referring to the potential of a damaged Ignition Pulser Coil from something broken off. More so the outer protrusions of the starter outer that pass by the Pulser coil. If one of these protrusions (reluctors or magnets) were bent inwards or somehow damage or broken (I'm not familiar with how these are formed on the starter outer) then there would be an incorrect pulse train sent to the ICM potentially screwing perhaps channel #1. Just a thought as it appears everything else has been checked. Grasping at straws a bit! Cheers. Following up on triggers on starter-clutch, they look like this: Look like they were stamped from inside-out into a die. Sharp cut edge would give nice strong rising-edge trigger for ICM. Pattern is 12-1 for total of 11 with blank spot to signify TDC. Since both 1-3 and 2-4 pulse-generators use same set of triggers, I suspect they're OK. If we need reference waveform from running bike, I can go downstairs tomorrow if it's warm and capture some with my scope. With VR sensors, waveform actually varies widely between different vehicles, so it'd be good to get for this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted January 4, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 4, 2021 Good pic of the starter clutch Danno. Glad to see it has a keyed spline so fitting means it can only go in the correct position. I imagine the pressed out protrusions aren't magnetic, can you confirm that? I still think there could be a possibility that the OP's clutch outer could have a damaged or bent in some way protrusion that just might not trigger the pickup coil. Again, grasping at straws, but it definitely needs an inspection!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted January 4, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 4, 2021 Yeah, without oscilloscope inspection of pulse signals, visual inspection and mechanical measurement would be good verification. Would certainly not hurt to do it just be sure 100%. It's not magnetic, but being ferrous metal, it does absorb magnetic field. There's magnet in pulse-generator that puts out magnetic-field. That's absorbed by starter-clutch. When trigger-bump moves closer to magnet, it pulls and absorbs more of the field. This moving field generates an impulse on pulse-generator windings. When tail-end of trigger-bump passes magnet, field falls back towards windings and creates current in opposite direction. Thus gives positive-negative sine-wave signal. Not really visible in this trace is "dead" time between leading and trailing-edge of trigger bump. Wider triggers have zero signal in between leading and trailing edge as there's no metal moving towards or away from magnet, thus no interruption or change of magnetic field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 Eye, To summarize it really up I got the bike and it was taken apart already for somebody was doing work on the oil pump. so I finish the oil pump and why I was inside I clutch and the pulse generators were hanging on the outside of the cover when I got it.. so I reinstalled those torqued everything followed the manual to the T. Went through the whole bike carbs clean, new plugs, fuel, air brakes etc. All seem to be in working order. Went to start, no start. Has fuel, has air, safety switch’s work, went to check spark all had spark except cylinder #1. Put on and new set of after market coils and wires. Still no spark. Put on a salvage icm, no spark. Out on a 1000 mile salvage wiring harness, looked brand new. No spark. If If I switch the wires for #1 to #3 and #3 to #1 then get spark on #1 and no spark on #3. All connections/wires and cleaned and produce good readings. Resistance where there needs to be resistance, continuity where there need to be continuity and voltage where there needs to be voltage. Fuses are all good. Idk? I don’t know if something happened between me change coils and harness, etc. I did change headlight, blinkers, to led. All correct and works great. Speaking of the that. Any one know what the purpose of the three wires come out of left bar switches. Br/w-O/w-Lb/w. I know the O and LB are blinkers backup. But BR/w? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted January 4, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 4, 2021 What concerns me, is through testing so far, we haven't identified what caused channel #1 to fail. There was certain combination of parts earlier (with new ICM I suspect), that had both #1 & #3 working. Then I suppose whatever fault was in system, short or crossed wires, killed that 2nd ICM as well. Without finding actual fault and rectifying it. I'm worried that after confirming channel #1 dead on both ICMs with noid-light, 3rd ICM may fall victim shortly after being swapped in.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 That’s the summery of what’s going on. I do have a noid light on its way, to really test it the icm triggers the bu/bl wires of #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 Danno, I’m also worried about that. I been checking everthing tho. All checks out. Only if something happen when I was hooking up headlights changing parts etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted January 4, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Dougwfresh said: Speaking of the that. Any one know what the purpose of the three wires come out of left bar switches. Br/w-O/w-Lb/w. I know the O and LB are blinkers backup. But BR/w? Part of blinker circuit. There's two filaments in bulb and two switches flip filaments and two circuits for each bulb. So bulb is either on as marker/indicator light. Or using other filament and blinking. Not sure why Honda chose this complicated routine. It's possible to do it with single-filament bulb and single circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 Is there any good aftermarket ignition systems for the vfr? Top of spark plug coil system? Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 Dan, that’s what I did with the lights but non of that would effect ignition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted January 4, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 4, 2021 Let's have you do manual spark-test. Make sure battery is fully-charged, +13v. 1. disconnect all ICM coil-trigger wires from ignition-coils. 2. pull plugs and lay them on engine so case is grounded and you can see spark-gap 3. key ON, kill-switch ON (should have +13v on each coil's power terminal). 4. earth jumper-wire with alligator clip to chassis-ground 5. take other end of jumper-wire and tap alligator-clip to each coil's trigger-wire Do you see spark at each plug when you tap coil's trigger? #4, then #2, then #3, then #1? This will confirm that: each coil has power and each coil will fire plug when triggered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer DannoXYZ Posted January 4, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 4, 2021 25 minutes ago, Dougwfresh said: Is there any good aftermarket ignition systems for the vfr? Top of spark plug coil system? Haha Sure, there's Ignitech. But if you have wiring issue, it too will die. But for price, you might as well go with fully-programmable EFI system like Microsquirt. 3D-mapping of ignition yields much, much better partial-throttle response than stock system. Without sacrificing high-end WOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted January 4, 2021 Member Contributer Share Posted January 4, 2021 22 minutes ago, DannoXYZ said: Let's have you do manual spark-test. Make sure battery is fully-charged, +13v. 1. disconnect all ICM coil-trigger wires from ignition-coils. 2. pull plugs and lay them on engine so case is grounded and you can see spark-gap 3. key ON, kill-switch ON (should have +13v on each coil's power terminal). 4. earth jumper-wire with alligator clip to chassis-ground 5. take other end of jumper-wire and tap alligator-clip to each coil's trigger-wire Do you see spark at each plug when you tap coil's trigger? #4, then #2, then #3, then #1? This will confirm that: each coil has power and each coil will fire plug when triggered. Thats a good test Danno. But he has already confirmed all coils generate a spark and all coils have the 12v to them. Its just that #1 Blue/Black wire will not trigger either coil #1 or when placed on #3. Continuity for this wire has also been checked back to the ICM and apparently has no short to frame either! Just sayin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougwfresh Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 Yes, I’ve also made a jumper(just to test) a test wire from the bu/bl wire at the cdi plug with a splicer to #1 coil and still nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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