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8th Gen: Replacing Rear Brake Line?


rgrattan

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I bought a full set of stainless steel braided brake and clutch lines (Galfer).  I decided to start the replacement on the rear, but I'm stumped.  The lines came with no instructions so I eventually found some online which aren't particularly useful and definitely not specific to the 8th gen.  This is an issue because the rear brake line appears to be broken out into three component lines and two of them affix to the bike somewhere inside and under the aluminum frame on the right hand side.

 

So to my question; how on God's green earth does one gain access to this area.?  What's the approach, the trick?  Do I remove the tank.  Doesn't seem to be a solution - still big pieces of aluminum in the way.  Do I remove the underside black plastic that shelters the underside of the saddle form the elements? 

 

Completely stymied.  Any pointers appreciated otherwise I will have to admit defeat and bring it into a bike shop to have the work done (I like to do my own work so this is a big deal for me).  

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47 minutes ago, rgrattan said:

I bought a full set of stainless steel braided brake and clutch lines (Galfer).  I decided to start the replacement on the rear, but I'm stumped.  The lines came with no instructions so I eventually found some online which aren't particularly useful and definitely not specific to the 8th gen.  This is an issue because the rear brake line appears to be broken out into three component lines and two of them affix to the bike somewhere inside and under the aluminum frame on the right hand side.

 

So to my question; how on God's green earth does one gain access to this area.?  What's the approach, the trick?  Do I remove the tank.  Doesn't seem to be a solution - still big pieces of aluminum in the way.  Do I remove the underside black plastic that shelters the underside of the saddle form the elements? 

 

Completely stymied.  Any pointers appreciated otherwise I will have to admit defeat and bring it into a bike shop to have the work done (I like to do my own work so this is a big deal for me).  

You have to remove the entire rear tail assembly.. It's not that bad of a job. You'll also need to remove the radiator overflow tank. This will get you all the access to replace the rear brake lines. Also removing the rear wheel will give you good access to the rear wheel line too.

 

Of course, you'll need to remove the rear master cylinder too.

 

 

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It's important to get proper access so when you connect up to the hard lines, you don't strip the threads...If you damage the factory hard line connections, you'll be in a world of hurt.

 

Just remember to put bolts back in original holes, take lots of pictures. The rear assembly is not that complicated... just 3 or 4 pieces..??

 

 

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9 minutes ago, flya750 said:

You'll also need to get a power bleeder. There is  NO WAY to bleed the brakes properly without a power bleeder...FYI...

Which one do you have?

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I'm obviously missing something! But what is the benefit in going to all this trouble for the rear brake line replacement on a relatively new bike? After all, it seems like a lot of it is steel line anyway!

I understand especially for the front system it will give a more positive brake feel and possible greater hose life.

But is there much to be gained by doing the rear? Never had any issue or need for rear brake hose replacement especially on relatively new bikes!

I'm not talking of race track applications here, just normal road use.

Just wondering, YMMV.

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5 minutes ago, Grum said:

I'm obviously missing something! But what is the benefit in going to all this trouble for the rear brake line replacement on a relatively new bike? After all, it seems like a lot of it is steel line anyway!

I understand especially for the front system it will give a more positive brake feel and possible greater hose life.

But it there much to be gained by doing the rear? Never had any issue or need for rear brake hose replacement especially on relatively new bikes!

I'm not talking of race track applications here, just normal road use.

Just wondering, YMMV.

The rear is not that difficult.....If you ever want the VFRD Header, going with the SS lines will solve some heat problems. 

That's about all I can add.... if you've bought the SS lines, I see NO reason not to do the job correct. When it comes to my 8G, nothing is half assed...

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27 minutes ago, Grum said:

I'm obviously missing something! But what is the benefit in going to all this trouble for the rear brake line replacement on a relatively new bike? After all, it seems like a lot of it is steel line anyway!

I understand especially for the front system it will give a more positive brake feel and possible greater hose life.

But is there much to be gained by doing the rear? Never had any issue or need for rear brake hose replacement especially on relatively new bikes!

I'm not talking of race track applications here, just normal road use.

Just wondering, YMMV.

Okay... I remember a reason... I remember now that my stock 8G rear brakes SUCKED, but now with the SS rear brake line, the rear brakes are night and day difference. I did the SS brake lines because I installed the VFRD header, but so happy I have SS brake lines now..

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13 minutes ago, flya750 said:

Okay... I remember a reason... I remember now that my stock 8G rear brakes SUCKED, but now with the SS rear brake line, the rear brakes are night and day difference. 

Well ok then. If ever I feel my rear brakes "Suck", I will definetly consider the steel lines.

Since I do a brake flush/bleed every 12 months, just haven't had anything to complain about with the 8gen rear brakes even after 77,000k's.

Again YMMV.

Cheers.

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1 minute ago, Grum said:

Well ok then. If ever I feel my rear brakes "Suck", I will definetly consider the steel lines.

Since I do a brake flush/bleed every 12 months, just haven't had anything to complain about with the 8gen rear brakes even after 77,000k's.

Again YMMV.

Cheers.

Bottom line, the SS lines will be an improvement. 

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When I did mine, it was daunting because I didn't know what to take off?  But now that I've done it once, I can tell you... dissemble the entire rear section... take lots of pics and videos.

 

You'll find out that Honda did a lot of smart things.. 

I think the biggest pain was making sure YOU NEVER drop a bolt!!!

 

AND VERY IMPORTANT.. .inside the rear swing arm you'll see a square hole about 2" x 2" YOU HAVE TO TAPE that hole up so anything you do drop doesn't go inside. Ask me how I know?LOL!! Fortunately, I had a flexible magnet with a light and the bolt was magnetic... But the bolt ricocheted and went right into that hole and was inside the hollow swing arm LOL!! I was delayed by about 15 mins, but it could have been a lot worse.

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3 hours ago, rgrattan said:

I bought a full set of stainless steel braided brake and clutch lines (Galfer).  I decided to start the replacement on the rear, but I'm stumped.  The lines came with no instructions so I eventually found some online which aren't particularly useful and definitely not specific to the 8th gen.  This is an issue because the rear brake line appears to be broken out into three component lines and two of them affix to the bike somewhere inside and under the aluminum frame on the right hand side.

 

So to my question; how on God's green earth does one gain access to this area.?  What's the approach, the trick?  Do I remove the tank.  Doesn't seem to be a solution - still big pieces of aluminum in the way.  Do I remove the underside black plastic that shelters the underside of the saddle form the elements? 

 

Completely stymied.  Any pointers appreciated otherwise I will have to admit defeat and bring it into a bike shop to have the work done (I like to do my own work so this is a big deal for me).  

 

Ah yes - the joy of working on Hondas.  I've wrenched on some Suzuki's and a few other brands, but IMHO Honda seems to have mastered the intricacies of either 1.  Attaching each and every part of the bike to every other part or 2. Hiding pieces behind a byzantine array of brackets or major pieces that can make it an exercise in frustration to get just the smallest bit removed.  On a 6th gen ABS, just to remove the rear shock is an all day project - non ABS? maybe 20 mins.  Honda must hire design engineers who formerly worked on those wooden puzzles that start out as a cube and you have to figure out how all the intertwined pieces come apart. 

 

Don't get me wrong - I :wub: my Honda's.  However . . . when working on them (like right now), I'm often reminded of the Joan Jett song "I hate myself for loving you" . . . :laugh:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpNw7jYkbVc

 

Stick with it - you'll get it.  The benefit of it you can't see at this moment is that once done, you'll know the bike way better and will be the subject matter expert for others that follow.  :fing02:

 

 

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5 hours ago, flya750 said:

There are less expensive ones, but I went with this one.

Hooks up to my air compressor.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OM751EC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 


I have the same one. I’ve done several bikes and vehicles with it and it’s an excellent product. 

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5 hours ago, Grum said:

I'm obviously missing something! But what is the benefit in going to all this trouble for the rear brake line replacement on a relatively new bike? After all, it seems like a lot of it is steel line anyway!

I understand especially for the front system it will give a more positive brake feel and possible greater hose life.

But is there much to be gained by doing the rear? Never had any issue or need for rear brake hose replacement especially on relatively new bikes!

I'm not talking of race track applications here, just normal road use.

Just wondering, YMMV.

Grum, unfortunately the Galfer braided line kit seems to come with all of the Viffer hydraulic lines. Maybe a marketing ploy.

 

We all know that braided lines are an improvement, but like you I doubt I would get much benefit out of a rear line or clutch line. Fronts are a little different and make the bike feel tight.

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Ahhh the my brakes are so much better now story...

 

Yes I have fitted s/s lines to my 4th gens, VF500F2 and RC51, but the motivation was looks not performance.

While they may provide a different FEEL, they cannot provide a better PERFORMANCE.  

The performance is governed by the (fixed) surface area of the master piston and the pistons on the business end.

Add Pascal's Law that even if you could see the canvas or teflon liner that holds the hydraulic fluid. Pressure excerted on a fluid (in a fully filled and closed circuit) will will travel equally.

 

Since you will use fresh fluid to fill your new lines and get any air out, you will ofcourse believe that the brakes function better. 

 

YMMV

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dutchy said:

While they may provide a different FEEL, they cannot provide a better PERFORMANCE

 

I was under the impression that ss brake lines did not expand with use while 'normal' lines did. So that, when you squeezed the brake on normal lines, some of your force went into that expansion, like squeezing on a balloon. With steel lines, all your levered force went through to the pistons. So it not only would feel tighter, but would actually be tighter. But as usual, I'm talking through my hat. I've never had the circumstance to know any real difference. 

 

Granted the piston and pads are predetermined, but maybe lesser force would be required with ss lines to achieve the same braking performance?

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You guys should see brake lines that are really worn out and feel them expand in your hand...it makes it much more obvious what's going on 😄

 

All materials in nature respond to force, pressure or otherwise.  Even when you're pressing your hand against a wall.  It may be imperceptible or trivial, but they do.  In the case of brake lines, expansion of the brake lines under pressure reduces the overall pressure.  This will reduce the overall pressure going to the piston and we'll feel it as "sponginess" or similar words.  

 

The ideal brake system has zero movement at the fluid boundaries except at the master cylinder and the piston.  But that's impossible in the physical universe.  So higher end brake systems will have higher degrees of stiffness at the boundaries, whether it's stiffer fluid lines, single piece vs. two piece calipers, etc.

 

Anyway, yes...SS braided lines do increase overall force to the brake system and reduce sponginess.  Whether it's a trivial or significant amount is both a math answer and a subjective one.  I'm pretty happy with the stock 6th gen lines at 18 years old, although admittedly I'm not pushing them very hard.  But I've changed lines on bikes that desperately needed it.  My truck could really use some SS lines, along with a couple other things.

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4 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

My truck could really use some SS lines, along with a couple other things.


On my Silverado, I did Russel SS lines, EBC Extreme-Duty rotors, and Hawk Ceramic pads. Holy smokes! What a difference. Just the SS lines on the previous pads and rotors was a big difference; the brakes were so much sharper. 

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4 hours ago, Dutchy said:

Sure, Pascal's law is fake news.

 

I don't think folks are actually arguing with you Leon, only trying to explain why you're wrong.😀 😛 Actually, it seems they're mostly pointing out that the reduction in sponginess resulting from ss lines is probably a noticeable and good thing overall.

 

VFR78 raises a good question about how they might affect ABS brakes.

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6 hours ago, Dutchy said:

Sure, Pascal's law is fake news. How could I not see thus. :goofy:

Pascal's Law (P=F/A) is in effect here.  But you are thinking of (A) as constant.  In reality these three things are interrelated and change in reaction to one another.  (A)  increases in response to higher (P) as both the piston moves out and the cylinder lines expand (not to mention the caliper body bolts, or body in a single-piece).  It diffuses some of the pressure you are creating through force at the master cylinder, and results in lower overall force at the piston.  You can get to the same overall force with stretchy or stiff lines, but you will have to move the lever further for the softer lines until the forces are equalized and they are able to contain the force you want exerted at the piston.

 

The more constant (A) is, or more accurately the more constrained the change in (A) is limited to piston movement, then the more the change in (P) will relate to the change in (F) at the caliper.  We want (A) to remain fixed and change very little, except at the pistons.

 

Another way to think about it is what happens when you have a leak, or you take the top off the reservoir, etc.?  Well, (A) just went to infinity and at least in the static case, (F) is arbitrarily close to zero.  We want (A) to change very little except at one or two places.  So it's all about constraining (A).  Very high end brakes aren't just SS lines, they are also very stiff "monoblock" construction calipers to constrain changes in (A).  Think about the force exerted inside the caliper: in a two piece caliper, the force is essentially stretching the bolts holding the two halves together, whereas in a monoblock it's one big piece of metal that will be much, much stiffer and resistant to stretching.

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