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Battery drain on fifth gen


Walker1

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Hello! 

I tried to start my VFR today and it wouldn’t start. Turns over when I press the ignition sluggishly and then.. thats it really! The bikes an 01 Fi with 23000 miles on the clock

This happened before and I replaced the battery which is now about two weeks old. (I’ve also had problems with delayed indicators since I bought the bike.. not sure if relevant!).

 

I turned the bike off and disconnected the negative terminal and checked the DC Amps. These were at .95-.97mAmps which were coming from the clock (disconnected the fuse to check)

I then checked the voltage across the battery terminal with the Bike turned on. This was at 9Volts and declining as I held it on.. Kept on dropping.

 

Any Idea what could cause this? I have my full test coming up in two weeks so have to get this sorted asap!

 

I’m going to charge the battery up tonight and then check the R/R and Stator tomorrow to see what’s going on there and if I can do anything about it!

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I had the same thing happen to me a couple years back.  It  turned out to be an inadequate charging system due to poor connections at rr to stator connector block. 

 

You are on the right track with stator and RR checks.  Follow the steps outlined in The Drill - Electrical - VFRDiscussion.url .

 

Poor connection between the stator to RR can cause the stator to overload and burn out.   Luckily my stator had not overloaded to failure point.  If yours is still good,  Pull the connector blocks apart and check connectivity.  If they are useable, clean the connections up, reconnect and check voltage when engine running.

 

I took my connector blocks out and replaced with ring connectiors.  Haven't  had any issues since.

 

Good luck.

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2 hours ago, Fritzer said:

I had the same thing happen to me a couple years back.  It  turned out to be an inadequate charging system due to poor connections at rr to stator connector block. 

 

You are on the right track with stator and RR checks.  Follow the steps outlined in The Drill - Electrical - VFRDiscussion.url .

 

Poor connection between the stator to RR can cause the stator to overload and burn out.   Luckily my stator had not overloaded to failure point.  If yours is still good,  Pull the connector blocks apart and check connectivity.  If they are useable, clean the connections up, reconnect and check voltage when engine running.

 

I took my connector blocks out and replaced with ring connectiors.  Haven't  had any issues since.

 

Good luck.

Thanks for the info, will follow the steps in the am!

Could you show a picture with the ring connectors?

 

1 hour ago, JimGen5 said:

Left mine for a while and the clock ran the battery down, just take out the single fuse that does the display.

The thing is I’ve been using it 5/7 days. Some of those days are just around the town doing my bits so constantly starting and stopping.. could this play a role on battery drain/lack of charging also?

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Dude, you need to verify that the battery is good first. Charge it overnight, and get it load tested. Then search for a thread called  "the drill".... it a charging system debug procedure.

Obviously your charging system isn't. It's probably more than just connectors. Typically on a 5th gen the R/R dies.

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Always begin with the battery for it's the weakest link in the whole system... To determine the condition of an Maintenance Free battery give it a
refreshing charge... wait 30 minutes... measure terminal voltage...

 

12.8 or higher is a good battery...
12.0 to 12.8 is a insufficient charge... recharge...
12.0 or lower... battery unserviceable...

 

The key to understanding a motorcycle charging system is RPMs... below
5000 and the bike consumes more than the system can replenish... above
5000 and the battery stores more than the system can use...

 

We are in the age of the Electronic Bike... fuel delivery and spark
timing and instruments and everything else operate within millionths
of a volt (milli-volts) and for some reason a component doesn't
receive its allotted share of volts the system starts to prioritized
which components are powered and which components are cut so you can
ultimately return home...

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Walker1 said:

Thanks for the info, will follow the steps in the am!

Could you show a picture with the ring connectors?

Attached is a link to the post submitted to rectify my  stator/rr/battery connection issues.  It has been two riding seasons without any further charging issues.

In addition to the improving connection issues, I would also recommend installing a voltmeter.  I mounted one to a piece of polycarbonite then 3m butyl double sided taped it to the triple clamp.  I also installed a 3 way switch to be able to view the system voltage without turning the key on.  Found appropriate switched/unswitched wires in circuits above the headlights behind the front cowling.

IMG_5942.JPG

Charging system performance upgrade - Fifth Generation VFR's - VFRDiscussion.url

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10 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

Always begin with the battery for it's the weakest link in the whole system... To determine the condition of an Maintenance Free battery give it a
refreshing charge... wait 30 minutes... measure terminal voltage...

 

12.8 or higher is a good battery...
12.0 to 12.8 is a insufficient charge... recharge...
12.0 or lower... battery unserviceable...

 

The key to understanding a motorcycle charging system is RPMs... below
5000 and the bike consumes more than the system can replenish... above
5000 and the battery stores more than the system can use...

 

We are in the age of the Electronic Bike... fuel delivery and spark
timing and instruments and everything else operate within millionths
of a volt (milli-volts) and for some reason a component doesn't
receive its allotted share of volts the system starts to prioritized
which components are powered and which components are cut so you can
ultimately return home...

 

 

 

So am I right in thinking my frequent short trips of short distances in start and stop traffic could also be a culprit in the battery draining?

Also, over 5000rpm is when the charging system is charging the battery?

Another thing! I found a loose wire in the rear light.. completely hanging.. would that zap battery?

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2 hours ago, Walker1 said:

So am I right in thinking my frequent short trips of short distances in start and stop traffic could also be a culprit in the battery draining?

Also, over 5000rpm is when the charging system is charging the battery?

Yes frequent stop/starts will deplete your battery.

No, over 5000rpm is not when the charging system is charging the battery, 5000rpm is just the Service Manual specified rpm to check the charging voltage. The charging system, if healthy, should be working even at idle. You should see anything from around 13.5 to 14.5v with engine running and nothing over 15.5v.

What is your charging voltage?

Also your leakage current is good, as the maximum allowable is 1.2 milliamp. Anything above the 1.2ma max current draw you would be suspicious of the R/R.

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12 minutes ago, Grum said:

Yes frequent stop/starts will deplete your battery.

No, over 5000rpm is not when the charging system is charging the battery, 5000rpm it is just the Service Manual specified rpm to check the charging voltage. The charging system, if healthy, should be working even at idle. You should see anything from around 13.5 to 14.5v with engine running and nothing over 15.5v.

What is your charging voltage?

Also your leakage current is good, as the maximum allowable is 1.2 milliamp. Anything above the 1.2ma max current draw you would be suspicious of the R/R.

Brilliant.. haven't checked the voltage as battery is still charging atm.. just unplugged the R/R and there is only five prongs is this normal?

 

Another thing! I found a loose wire in the rear light.. completely hanging.. would that zap battery?

1599123097945151832593220857067.jpg

15991231119814014717413786233465.jpg

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The R/R connector will have the 5 connections as shown on your plug, 2 Greens (Grounds), 2 Red/Whites (Positive outputs) and a Black (Voltage Sense wire)

The other White connector going to the R/R are the 3 phase Stator Output wires, 3 yellow wires.

 

More likely a floating power wire touching frame will take out its fuse before having an effect on the battery.

Again, checking what your charging voltage is will give you a good idea to the state of your Stator and R/R.

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Update! Checked the reg/rectified... There is a constant 3.6 on both green and red cables.. when I reverse the positive and negative the amount of resistance keeps climbing... This means the reg/rec is toasted?

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38 minutes ago, Walker1 said:

Update! Checked the reg/rectified... There is a constant 3.6 on both green and red cables.. when I reverse the positive and negative the amount of resistance keeps climbing... This means the reg/rec is toasted?

Sounds like it. Should measure like a diode between those wires. But just connect it up and measure your charging voltage to be sure!

 

When you measured your leakage current was the R/R connected?

3.6ohms between those wires would draw 3.3amps from your battery, 40watts of power! Guess that would depend on the polarity of your low resistance.

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1 hour ago, Grum said:

The R/R connector will have the 5 connections as shown on your plug, 2 Greens (Grounds), 2 Red/Whites (Positive outputs) and a Black (Voltage Sense wire)

The other White connector going to the R/R are the 3 phase Stator Output wires, 3 yellow wires.

 

More likely a floating power wire touching frame will take out its fuse before having an effect on the battery.

Again, checking what your charging voltage is will give you a good idea to the state of your Stator and R/R.

Ok the voltage across the battery is 13.5 with engine off. around 13V when idle (13.1v with lights on) and dropped to below 13.5ish at 5000rpm.

1 hour ago, Grum said:

Sounds like it. Should measure like a diode between those wires. But just connect it up and measure your charging voltage to be sure!

 

When you measured your leakage current was the R/R connected?

3.6ohms between those wires would draw 3.3amps from your battery, 40watts of power!

I had either the negative of positive connected to one block of connector and the other testing the pins then vise versa. I followed this video for guiding the process 

 

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16 minutes ago, Walker1 said:

k the voltage across the battery is 13.5 with engine off. around 13V when idle (13.1v with lights on) and dropped to below 13.5ish at 5000rpm

Tested again and volts climbed to 17V at 5000rpm. Confused for sure

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Charging volts are not right. WARNING 17v is dangerous! Your R/R is faulty! This voltage can cook your battery and more importantly could destroy your ECM! 

 

Are you sure your meter is accurate? 13.5v battery voltage engine off sounds high!

 

Unplug the three yellow stator connector from the R/R, do the ohmic checks for the stator, should have very low ohms between phases and virtual infinity resistance from any phase to Ground. Do the AC voltage checks engine running, and if they are ok your stator is good and you R/R is what's at fault.

Have you got the service manual? You can download it from this forum.

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52 minutes ago, Grum said:

Charging volts are not right. WARNING 17v is dangerous! Your R/R is faulty! This voltage can cook your battery and more importantly could destroy your ECM! 

 

Are you sure your meter is accurate? 13.5v battery voltage engine off sounds high!

 

Unplug the three yellow stator connector from the R/R, do the ohmic checks for the stator, should have very low ohms between phases and virtual infinity resistance from any phase to Ground. Do the AC voltage checks engine running, and if they are ok your stator is good and you R/R is what's at fault.

Have you got the service manual? You can download it from this forum.

I’m not sure how to be sure if my mete is accurate but unfortunately its the only one I have on hand!

 

I did the ohm check on stator resulted in 0.2 on each

did the AC voltage check with engine running and it resulted in 15-19V. Unfortunately I’ve only two hands and no clips so couldn’t test at 5000rpms!

I have a service manual, everything seems to be pointing back to the R/R..

 

Something that may be helpful which hasn’t been mentioned.. I just talked to a mechanic who had a bike with R/R problems however it turned out to be the wiring instead of the actual R/R. They suggested testing the wiring from the R/R to the block connector to make sure the power is coming all the way down. (If someone has suggested this then fair play to ya!)

 

I’ll be looking to shop for another R/R so.. the swift replies have been greatly appreciated! 

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But did you check the stator windings for shorts to Ground as mentioned? 

 

Not sure about the checks your mechanic mentioned, however the pictures of your connectors looked good to me!

 

You may want to check the state of Main Fuse B 30amp next to the starter relay. This fuse can suffer from high resistance connections  and heat stress. This fuse is also what the R/R uses to feed its voltage to the battery.

The Stator Output 3 wire connector is also a weak point that can also suffer from high resistance heat stressed connections, often best to cut this connector out and solder and sleeve the wires

 

Also the resistance reading you had across the R/R's output wires is not correct so it's a very good chance the R/R is stuffed, not so much your wiring!

 

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16 minutes ago, Grum said:

But did you check the stator windings for shorts to Ground as mentioned? 

Is this not the ohms test? Negative probe on negative terminal and then positive probe to each of the terminals

17 minutes ago, Grum said:

may want to check the state of Main Fuse B 30amp next to the starter relay. This fuse can suffer from high resistance connections  and heat stress. This fuse is also what the R/R uses to feed its voltage to the battery.

I had a look, little dirty but still intact!

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57 minutes ago, Walker1 said:

Is this not the ohms test? Negative probe on negative terminal and then positive probe to each of the terminals

I had a look, little dirty but still intact!

There are two ohm checks for the stator windings.

1 - Phase to phase low ohms, which is what I think you've correctly measured? Checks that the windings are not open circuit or high resistance, and balanced between the windings.(should measure between 0.1 to 1.0 ohms)

 

2 - Measuring for shorts to Ground. So one meter probe on any of the 3 yellow phase wires and the other probe to frame or battery negative terminal. Set your meter to the highest ohms range, you must read virtual infinity, ie NO shorts to frame, this is the most common mode of failure of the stator, low ohms to frame.

Section 16 of the Service Manual describes this.

 

Fuse B check. As long as there is no evidence of burnt, heat stressed fuse or wiring, then it should be ok.

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do you see any melting on the wires attached to the red solenoid plug ??  a common fault, and charging voltage goes through those wires, so any added resistance will reduce charging.

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On 9/2/2020 at 1:40 PM, Fritzer said:

I had the same thing happen to me a couple years back.  It  turned out to be an inadequate charging system due to poor connections at rr to stator connector block. 

 

You are on the right track with stator and RR checks.  Follow the steps outlined in The Drill - Electrical - VFRDiscussion.url .

 

Poor connection between the stator to RR can cause the stator to overload and burn out.   Luckily my stator had not overloaded to failure point.  If yours is still good,  Pull the connector blocks apart and check connectivity.  If they are useable, clean the connections up, reconnect and check voltage when engine running.

 

I took my connector blocks out and replaced with ring connectiors.  Haven't  had any issues since.

 

Good luck.

I have a different bike ('98 CBR600) with the same problem. The connector block from the stator to the R/R is fried, literally blackened and burnt. I plan to cut the connector out and hard-wire the three yellow wires. Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "ring connectors?"

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13 hours ago, squirrelman said:

u see any melting on the wires attached to the red solenoid plug ??  a common fault, and charging voltage goes through those wires, so any added resistance will reduce charging.

There is a slight bit of what seems to be black soot on the wires connecting the stator to the r/r but nothing burnt from what I see

7 hours ago, mello dude said:

On more time. This is "The Drill"  - Charging system debug. Gimme numbers. Do it. 

I have done the tests . The numbers are 0.2 ohms phase to phase, 0ohms ground to stator.

The r/r has 3.6 going in and an ever increasing number coming out. The numbers for voltage are up there ^^

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