Jump to content

Turn Signal problem on 5th Generation 1998 VFR


GeoB

Recommended Posts

I have a problem with my VFR indicators which work absolutely fine until I put the side or headlights on at which point both left and right turn lights on the instrument cluster flash. The front and rear indicators work normally in all instances. I’m thinking this is probably an earthing issue but wondered if anyone has any ideas about this or where I should start looking for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
8 hours ago, GeoB said:

I have a problem with my VFR indicators which work absolutely fine until I put the side or headlights on at which point both left and right turn lights on the instrument cluster flash. The front and rear indicators work normally in all instances. I’m thinking this is probably an earthing issue but wondered if anyone has any ideas about this or where I should start looking for it.

Sorry, don't have a 5gen but can you clarify a few things.

- Aren't the headlights ON the moment your Ignition is switched ON?

- What are the "side" lights? Are you referring to the Position Lights, which looking at the wiring diagram are also On with Ignition to ON, then individually switch on or off depending on your turn selection?

- Are you saying the Instrument Panel indicator lights both flash without having made a turn selection at the switch?

- Are they both flashing at normal brightness and at the flash rate of the normal indicators. OR are they a random flash?

- And is it ONLY the Instrument Panel turn lights that flash, OR does the Hi Beam Indicator light do the same as the Turn Indicator lights?

 

Many a strange Electrical effect has been caused by the common Ground Block, it's an Orange coloured rectangular plastic Ground junction point with many Green wires. Located on the left side wire harness above the Chain Guard. Would suggest a close inspection of the Ground Block might be a good starting point.

 

Here's what it can look like!

 

 

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
1 hour ago, mello dude said:

^^^^ Nasty job coming in my future..... 😎

Nah, easy fix Mello, especially for a clever bloke like you, and all your ground woes will be gone. (Hopefully!):wacko:

 

Here's a great example of the fix. Don't know who did it but its a very fine, neat example of soldering all the grounds together and adding an additional lead straight to the battery Neg terminal.

Cheers.:beer:

image.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

That orange block does not seem like one of Honda's better ideas.   Makes you wonder why they don't just do it the way it was fixed in the 1st place.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi All,

 

just to clarify.

 

1. On UK 5gen bikes, headlights don’t come on with ignition. We have a 3 position light switch on the RH Control between the Engine stop  switch and starter button. I believe Australian 5gens are wired differently 
2. By sidelights, I should have said position lights which is the 2nd position on the light switch above

3. On making a turn selection in either direction, the instrument panel indicator light works normally until the position lights are switched on at which point they both flash regardless of turn direction selected. Also if position lights are on both panel indicator lights will come continuously if no turn direction is selected.

 

i have located the orange earth block Grum was talking about. My block seems in pretty good condition in comparison to Grums photo i.e. no scorching , corrosion or furring. Is there anyway I can test this theory before ripping the earth block out. My knowledge of bike electrics is pretty limited so I don’t want to start something I can’t finish.

 

hope you are all staying safe in these crazy times 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

If the ground block looks ok then the next spot to check would be the left switch block wiring and the switches therein; the grey wire in the block is the power feed for the flashers, maybe you have a short betwen this and the power feed for the headlights (Blue/white). You could check for continuity between these two, pretty sure there should be none. 

 

VFR_Wiring_Layers_hires_full_(2).png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Agree with Terry, it appears from what you're saying, your Ground Block is O.K.

However, a Blue/White wire short to the Turn Relay Gray wire would place a permanent 12v on the Gray wire irrespective of light switch selection, which would screw the Indicator flashing operation all together I'm guessing. (Referring to the 5th Gen Service Manual wiring diagram).

 

Also can you Please answer:

- The Instrument Panel indicator lights are just repeats of the Main Indicators. So are the Main Indicator Lights doing exactly the same thing as the Instrument Panel lights?

- Is there any chance the Front Indicator Lamps have been replaced recently? And possibly with the incorrect type?

 

Your comment "Also if position lights are on both panel indicator lights will come continuously if no turn direction is selected."

This makes me think there is something strange with the globes or Ground wiring for them. Left and Right Indicators are electrically isolated from each other(other than Grounds), both Main and Instrument Panel, and you are stating that Indicators are Normal provided the Position lights are OFF.

It's only the Position Lights which send a voltage to BOTH left and right sides of the front globes at the Same Time. If there was a bad Ground for the two Front Globes then that could explain BOTH Panel indicators being continuously ON when Position Lights are ON.

 

Do you have a Multimeter and know how to use it?

 

Do a continuity check of the Green Wire of both Indicator Globe sockets. Your meter selected to lowest Ohms range, Black lead on the Battery Negative, Red lead to the Green Wire of the Globe sockets you should read Zero Ohms (Ignition switch to OFF).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Grum, the plot thickens. I did have a multimeter but it gave up the ghost a wee while back. I’m rapidly realising that I will need one to get to the bottom of this so I’m off down to the hardware store today. I’ll let you know how I get on later on. 
 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Grum,

 

sorry forgot to answer your two other questions

 

1. Main indicators behave normally at all times.

2. No change to front indicator lamps. In addition, it might be worth noting that the bike has been laid up for a few years in a warm dry garage and re-emerged from hibernation with this issue. I have cleaned as many connectors as I could find. The battery was completely dead and I have put a new one in which has been full charged as is metering fine on a trickle charger.

 

thanks again

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
6 hours ago, GeoB said:

Grum,

 

sorry forgot to answer your two other questions

 

1. Main indicators behave normally at all times.

2. No change to front indicator lamps. In addition, it might be worth noting that the bike has been laid up for a few years in a warm dry garage and re-emerged from hibernation with this issue. I have cleaned as many connectors as I could find. The battery was completely dead and I have put a new one in which has been full charged as is metering fine on a trickle charger.

 

thanks again

Sorry more questions!

- Do the Position Lights in both Front Indicators illuminate normally? (Assuming they are in the Indicators!)

- When the Panel Indicators come on or flash in the Fault state, are they dim or normal full brightness?

 

It would be interesting to note the state of the Panel Indicators with Both Front Indicator bulbs removed? Does selecting Position lights still bring on the Panel lights after removing the two main bulbs?

 

- Do you have a circuit diagram of your model. I just can't seem to find one?

- Are your Indicator/Position lights a dual filament 21w/5w single globe as per the American,(see attached drawing) or two separate bulbs per side?

 

 

image.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Grum,

 

many thanks again. I have repeated your questions below with my answer following in bold italics

 

 

Question

Do the Position Lights in both Front Indicators illuminate normally? (Assuming they are in the Indicators!)

- When the Panel Indicators come on or flash in the Fault state, are they dim or normal full brightness?

Answer
European spec 5th Gen bikes have only one position light which is located between the headlamp bulbs and is 5 W capless bulb so none in beside indicators. 
Panel lights flashing in fault state are at full brightness.

 

Question

It would be interesting to note the state of the Panel Indicators with Both Front Indicator bulbs removed? Does selecting Position lights still bring on the Panel lights after removing the two main bulbs are removed?

Answer

Bike is completely naked just now, all plastic has been removed including front cowl complete with  indicator assemblies. The results are the same - selecting position light still brings on the indicator panel lights

 

Question

Do you have a circuit diagram of your model. I just can't seem to find one? Are your Indicator/Position lights a dual filament 21w/5w single globe as per the American,(see attached drawing) or two separate bulbs?

Answer

European circuit diagram attached (sorry about poor quality I’ll try to get a better image). Indicator bulbs are standalone 21W single filament bulbs

 

Off to get a multimeter now 🏃🏻‍♂️

 

image.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Does this sound familiar? Think this might be your Answer.

 

"Hi all, I have a problem with the lights/Indicators on my 1998 VFR800 FI.
With the lights off the indicators work fine, but when I put the sidelight on the dashboard indicator lights and main beam warning lights glow. The indicators still work. When I put the headlights on, the dash lights glow brighter and when the indicators are used the wrong dash light illuminates. On main beam the dash indicator lamp does not show brightly. I have disconnected every connector I can find on the bike, cleaned the terminals and wd40'd everything. Have checked the earth point below the right hand side of the tank but dont know if there are any others. Everything was working fine before the bike was layed up for winter so I am at a loss. Any ideas would be most welcome."

 

And the Fix.

 

"Turns out to be a couple of bad tracks on the PCB. One broken & one dodgy. Soldered jumper wires across the bad bits and problems cured. The dash illumination lights are brighter than ever. "

 

Sounds like a close inspection of the Instrument Panel PCB tracks are needed.

Let's know how you get on. Good Luck.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
On 7/9/2020 at 5:58 AM, Grum said:

Nah, easy fix Mello, especially for a clever bloke like you, and all your ground woes will be gone. (Hopefully!):wacko:

 

Here's a great example of the fix. Don't know who did it but its a very fine, neat example of soldering all the grounds together and adding an additional lead straight to the battery Neg terminal.

Cheers.:beer:

image.jpeg

Lol, this looks like the work of a UK sparky!  Who else (well, other than me...) would have stranded mains earth single cable (the green/yellow wire) lying around the shop?  Whatever works...

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m now armed with a multimeter and have been checking continuity on the PCB. I’ve found there is no continuity between the illumination bulb for the odometer and the high beam warning bulb as marked on the attached photo. Everything else seems ok at the moment but you will see that the bottom four routes on the PCB are heavily discoloured. I can only assume that water has gotten in here and is the root cause of this problem. Having found it any suggestions as to how to fix this would be welcome 

D1E8FA44-2E58-4013-97BE-B772742C7DD7.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Firstly you can clean the PCB with Methylated Spirits on a soft rag carefully wipe it down.

- It looks like all three of those lower tracks don't look good.

- It's difficult for me to see the tracks between the two points where you aren't getting continuity because of the folds in the tracks. But it is interesting that it's the Hi Beam light in question, and as I mentioned (way back) about whether the Hi Beam Indicator was playing up, as both Indicators and Hi Beam lights share the same ground connection, the break you are pointing to is that same ground. 

 

Continuity Checking.

- You need to check meticulously each track from its start point being the two Main Electrical connections incoming points on the PCB to its end point which you'll just need to follow out. If you get continuity then move onto the next. If you Don't then it's a case of working backwards along the track to establish where the break is. Sorry if you already know this and have done it!

 

Visual Check.

- Have a Very Close look at ALL solder joints for cracks or poor joints, any suspect joint should be properly re-soldered. Use a magnifying glass to inspect all the copper tracks for cracks particularly in the areas of the 90deg folds. Those two other lower corroded tracks, apart from the one you've identified are going to need attention.

 

Repair - How good are you at soldering?????

- It's about knowing where the break is and soldering a small gauge link wire to re-establish the connection. If it's just a crack in the track, a good clean of each side of the track break, then a good dob of solder will do it. Or a short link of tinned copper wire can be soldered length ways along the track to complete the join.

 

SERIOUSLY - If you are not competent with soldering and don't fully understand what I'm trying to explain. Take the panel to an Instrument Repairer, Auto Electrician or a skilled Electronics Technician that is capable of properly checking and repairing the panel. Otherwise you could do irreparable damage!!!!

 

However if you are going to do it yourself, here is a method you can use to repair the break in continuity, using two lengths of small gauge insulated wire. Again, do not attempt this without being confident of what you're doing! Refer to the added letters on your picture.

A - Solder a small wire at this point. NOTE - solder exactly where the Dash is next to the letter.

B - You'll need to very carefully scrap away the corrosion to reveal bright copper and solder the other end of the wire to this point, nearest to the Globe socket as possible. Also you'll need to add another wire at this point B, then solder its other end to point C.

- After doing this hopefully you should now have continuity From point D to point A and to both E and F being the Indicator Globe Ground. (measure where the letter dash is).

 

The two other corroded lower tracks that need some attention just need a link wire soldered on the track from one side to the other which will bypass the corroded section. Do this to both of those tracks.

 

Goods Luck. Hope this helps because I can't do much more with just a Keyboard!

 

5_Gen_Instrument_1.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Grum,

 

1st off thanks for your reply and all the assistance you have provided, you have been above and beyond  the call of duty for which I am grateful.

 

I haven’t really done much soldering so I think it would be wise for me to take this to someone who actually knows what they are doing rather than me bugger up the PCB completely.

 

I am however curious about checking further for continuity which after all isn’t going to break anything. However my PCB would seem to be mounted on the back of some protective clear film. The only places I could access it in a non-destructive manner is at the soldered blobs or at the twist fits for the bulbs so I am not sure how to access circuits mid-stream to check for continuity or clean with meths. 
 

I realise I am probably showing a complete lack of understanding of PCBs etc and you will be thinking “effin idiot” but hey there’s only one way to learn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

No worries GeoB. At least you now know what the problems are and you can pass this info onto someone who can do the repair for you.

You certainly are not an "effin idiot" you did well to get your bike and Instrument Panel apart and find the problem, plus you've got yourself a nice multimeter to go with it.

Keep us posted with how you get on and hopefully the good news when your bike all up and running normally.

Cheers.:beer:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Hi Grum,

 

Hope you are doing well. I finally managed to get someone to repair my circuit board. ( not easy in these Covid times!) The guy jumped  the bottom four four dodgy tracks and fixed a few others he thought were suspect. It only cost me £30 which was an absolute bargain compared to the cost of a new board. Delighted to report that everything is now working as it should so happy days.

 

Thanks again for all your help. Wouldn’t have got there otherwise.

 

I owe you a few 🍺🍺🍺


 

yours,

 

Geo

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
33 minutes ago, GeoB said:

Hi Grum,

 

Hope you are doing well. I finally managed to get someone to repair my circuit board. ( not easy in these Covid times!) The guy jumped  the bottom four four dodgy tracks and fixed a few others he thought were suspect. It only cost me £30 which was an absolute bargain compared to the cost of a new board. Delighted to report that everything is now working as it should so happy days.

 

Thanks again for all your help. Wouldn’t have got there otherwise.

 

I owe you a few 🍺🍺🍺


 

yours,

 

Geo

 

Great news Geo. I'll enjoy those beers, you enjoy your ride at last.

Cheers.:beer:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy.