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Whats the verdict on removing combined braking system. I'm fabricating a new stainless lobster back exhaust system that will have undertail mufflers and I'm tight for space at the rear end. I have thought about removing the terrible combined rear brake system and replacing with independent. It would seam that if I was to do this now it would make it alot easier to route new exhaust. Any feedback would be much appreciated 

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I de-linked my brake system when I did my suspension. I'm now running F4i lowers up front with DMr cartridges, 954 calipers, 600RR front master cylinder, F4i rear master cylinder, DMr rear shock and the OE rear caliper that's been drilled for a single brake line (routed through the swingarm) with AS3 braided lines throughout.

 

Pretty much everything I've done is colour-by-numbers, but it works very well. You couldn't pay me to go back to the CBS. 

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2 hours ago, Jacobcloud363 said:

Whats the verdict on removing combined braking system. I'm fabricating a new stainless lobster back exhaust system that will have undertail mufflers and I'm tight for space at the rear end. I have thought about removing the terrible combined rear brake system and replacing with independent. It would seam that if I was to do this now it would make it alot easier to route new exhaust. Any feedback would be much appreciated 

There's guys who are fans of the LBS like my friend raYzerman and guys who hate it.

Like me. When I started looking for a 5th gen, I knew before I even found one, that the LBS was going in the trash.

 

If you do the delete, please do it properly with a fork swap and upgrade the rear caliper.

I am not a fan of the kits that just replumb the hydraulics.

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3 minutes ago, mello dude said:

There's guys who are fans of the LBS like my friend raYzerman and guys who hate it.

Like me. When I started looking for a 5th gen, I knew before I even found one, that the LBS was going in the trash.

 

If you do the delete, please do it properly with a fork swap and upgrade the rear caliper.

I am not a fan of the kits that just replumb the hydraulics.

Thanks for the reply. And I'm glad I'm not the only one that isn't a fan of the lbs I have been thinking of removing for some time. So have you got any pictures of your system? What forks did you use insted? 

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10 minutes ago, Jacobcloud363 said:

Thanks for the reply. And I'm glad I'm not the only one that isn't a fan of the lbs I have been thinking of removing for some time. So have you got any pictures of your system? What forks did you use insted? 

I used VTR lower legs with VFR upper tubes. That give several caliper options. I'm running RC51 calipers and master cylinder, stock rotors/wheel/spacers. And 4th gen bars.

Rear .. running a 14 mm m/c with the caliper pistons bridge together.  Check my gallery for pics of the conversion.

 

Any more F4i forks are the simplest option.. Calipers..954/RC51/F4i...Master cylinder front ... several OEM Honda options. Rear master needs to go to 14mm.. F4i, RC51, 600RR, VTR.

And again, rear caliper.. all 3 pistons need to work together. I like my bridge line scheme. But some guys just run 2 lines and others drill out the center piston hydraulics. All are fine.

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The simplest on a 5th Gen are F3 lowers, calipers, front brake lines, and front fender. You’ll need a 14mm rear master cylinder and custom brake line. Remove the rear caliper, drill a hole in the back of the center bore into the brake fluid passage for the outer bores, and plug the center banjo opening. Everything else on the VFR works, as is. 

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42 minutes ago, Jacobcloud363 said:

Sounds like a nice setup! Can i fit most honda bits for the same age and power? How did you decide what to go for? Did you upgrade the mono shock? 

Not sure how to answer your question, but the job is really just figuring out what OEM Honda bits you want to use and then get buying parts for the build.

Do a bit of searching, there is probably a hundred threads on the suspension and brake upgrade.

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3 hours ago, Jacobcloud363 said:

Sounds like a nice setup! Can i fit most honda bits for the same age and power? How did you decide what to go for? Did you upgrade the mono shock? 

I just did research here and on VFRW, looking at simple to complex swaps. Then, I started searching eBay for those options, looking at availability and pricing. Lastly, I went to the bike breaker, who is local to me, and he happened to have F3 and F4 carcasses. Based on eBay prices versus what was locally available, the answer was quite obvious. The simplest solution was readily available and at the most affordable pricing, so I went F3. 
 

The aforementioned components I listed are what will most directly swap, using the most existing VFR parts. Even the VFR’s front master cylinder works with the F3 calipers. 
 

I did upgrade the shock, along with the fork internals. Every bike I own is setup this way. 
 

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9 hours ago, ducnut said:

I just did research here and on VFRW, looking at simple to complex swaps. Then, I started searching eBay for those options, looking at availability and pricing. Lastly, I went to the bike breaker, who is local to me, and he happened to have F3 and F4 carcasses. Based on eBay prices versus what was locally available, the answer was quite obvious. The simplest solution was readily available and at the most affordable pricing, so I went F3. 
 

The aforementioned components I listed are what will most directly swap, using the most existing VFR parts. Even the VFR’s front master cylinder works with the F3 calipers. 
 

I did upgrade the shock, along with the fork internals. Every bike I own is setup this way. 
 

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Your bike is looking smart! Fair play. Mine is old and tired. Has been used alot and the person before me didn't look after it sadly. That did make for a good price at the time but all the alloy isn't in good shape. this is my project bike now and I want to spend some time and money getting it the way I want. Not bothered about pumping money into it as I will never sell it. Those calipers on the front look small! Any info on valve shims? Have you done them yourself? 

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1 hour ago, Jacobcloud363 said:

Your bike is looking smart! Fair play. Mine is old and tired. Has been used alot and the person before me didn't look after it sadly. That did make for a good price at the time but all the alloy isn't in good shape. this is my project bike now and I want to spend some time and money getting it the way I want. Not bothered about pumping money into it as I will never sell it. Those calipers on the front look small! Any info on valve shims? Have you done them yourself? 

Mine wasn’t in the best of shape, either. I took it down to the frame and went through everything, addressing every piece as I went. I still have a couple things left I want/need to do. But, I’ve already spent more than what I could’ve bought a new 8th Gen for. 
 

They’re 2-piston calipers, like most bikes of the era. Without the 3rd pistons that are part of the VFR’s LBS, the originals would be 2-piston, as well. I didn’t get too wrapped up in bolting on the biggest calipers I could, because there are racers pushing 2-piston setups way further than any VFR will ever see. They’re plenty to do the job. 
 

At 16K miles, my valves were perfect, so nothing needed. At 50K miles, I’ll check them, again. 

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8 hours ago, ducnut said:

Mine wasn’t in the best of shape, either. I took it down to the frame and went through everything, addressing every piece as I went. I still have a couple things left I want/need to do. But, I’ve already spent more than what I could’ve bought a new 8th Gen for. 
 

They’re 2-piston calipers, like most bikes of the era. Without the 3rd pistons that are part of the VFR’s LBS, the originals would be 2-piston, as well. I didn’t get too wrapped up in bolting on the biggest calipers I could, because there are racers pushing 2-piston setups way further than any VFR will ever see. They’re plenty to do the job. 
 

At 16K miles, my valves were perfect, so nothing needed. At 50K miles, I’ll check them, again. 

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Been busy taking apart today, have taken the rear frame off as there was some surface rust so I'm going to re paint it. Decided I'm going to re use the rear caliper and looking at a 14mm Brembo rear master cylinder on ebay. Its off an xj900s and only £24.99 just need to know the mounting bolt spacings. Hopefully there all a standard size! Im looking into what to do with the front end too might replace complete forks and brakes just to keep compatibility issues at bay. Did you have to drop the engine out to check valve clearances, mines on roughly 90000 miles so will need to look at them just a bit apprehensive. P.s. I'm no mechanic! What's your thoughts @mello dude ?

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If you stick with a Honda rear master cylinder, it’ll be a straight swap. A rebuild kit is readily available at any OEM supplier. 
 

You don’t have to remove the engine to check valves.
 

Since you’re into it that far, it’s only 5 bolts to lift the frame off the engine. I’d drain the coolant and oil, remove the radiators and swingarm assembly, disconnect the handful of electrical connections and throttle cables, set the engine down onto some blocks, remove the bolts, and lift the frame off. That’ll leave you with the engine and throttle body/airbox assembly sitting free. Then, you can really get to scrubbing on the engine, go through the cooling and electrical systems, etc. It’ll make things so much easier to work on. I was fighting my bike, until I gave in and lifted the frame off. 

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And, when I started putting it back together, I did it in reverse. 
 

Tip: Leave the throttle body assembly on the engine, when you lift the frame off. When you put it back together, put all that on top of the engine first, then, set the frame over it. This’ll save you from having to dick around with the insulator clamps, inside the frame.

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Jacob.... looks like you are jumping into it......ducnut is right get a Honda rear mc......RC51, CBR600RR, VTR1000, F4i .. all are good.

The decision you need to figure out is what forks you want. Everything will follow from that.

With F4i, you will need to grab 6th gen triples and bars... or if if you stay with 41 mm diameter stock size forks, that's either the F3 conversion like ducnut's or the VTR lowers design like mine. Or.... if you're going more high end conversion, there's 50 choices there.

 

At 90k the valves are worth looking at...

You may as well change out the cooling system hoses since you have it apart. Search AS3 hoses...

So it follows... how far are you going to go with this? There's a thousand possibilities....

I like ducnut's teardown... probably something in my future too....(again)

 

And as a btw- Bike projects always go 5x longer than you think it will take

 

Good luck and beers to you..

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10 hours ago, mello dude said:

Jacob.... looks like you are jumping into it......ducnut is right get a Honda rear mc......RC51, CBR600RR, VTR1000, F4i .. all are good.

The decision you need to figure out is what forks you want. Everything will follow from that.

With F4i, you will need to grab 6th gen triples and bars... or if if you stay with 41 mm diameter stock size forks, that's either the F3 conversion like ducnut's or the VTR lowers design like mine. Or.... if you're going more high end conversion, there's 50 choices there.

 

At 90k the valves are worth looking at...

You may as well change out the cooling system hoses since you have it apart. Search AS3 hoses...

So it follows... how far are you going to go with this? There's a thousand possibilities....

I like ducnut's teardown... probably something in my future too....(again)

 

And as a btw- Bike projects always go 5x longer than you think it will take

 

Good luck and beers to you..

 

Definitely jumping into it! Its the only way isn't it? Hehe. I have found an f4j mc for a good price. Thanks for that. I'm not sure what forks to go with. I definitely want them to be the same length and I don't want a strait bar set up hopefully keep the same ones or similar. The top end of my forks are all pitted so will probably go for strait swap. Otherwise would have looked at vtr lowers. In regards to the valves do you have any video links to give me some insight. I'm going to be upgrading cooling system hoses and oil cooler is shot. Are there any upgrades in the cooling department? The bike gets hot often but I think after alot of research that that seems to be normal for a vfr. 

As I'm unable to drive intill the 25th of June next year I might as well go through the whole bike I'm definitely going to replace all bearings and re paint the whole bike but farings need attention as it has been dropped a few times in its life. So the list its quite long as it is anyway. 

Thanks for the feedback its much appreciated! 

P.s. are you in the UK?  

 

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F3 forks are a direct swap, tubes and all. 
 

AS3, of UK, have nice hose and “clip” kits, which can be bought from their eBay store. The VTR fan blade (part #19020-MBB-003) blows outward, which is better in mixed traffic and can improve system performance. You can add an additional fan to the right radiator. You’ll need to plan to replace the O-rings, throughout the system. A new thermostat, radiator cap, and coolant are essential. 
 

Valves are easy to check, but, making adjustments takes some technical know-how. Since you have the bike stripped, paying someone to do them would be more reasonable. 
 

Swap the head bearings to a tapered roller setup. Pyramid have them, in the UK. 

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Hot VFR's are definitely a perceived thing, my view is that having a digital temp gauge (with numbers) rather than a swinging needle or bar graph makes it seem worse that it is. As long as the thermostat is healthy I doubt the VFR is worse than any other bike. 

 

I did the delink thing on my now-sold VFR, and started with VTR forks then moved on to F4i forks/6G triples and bars because I'm a suspension tinkerer and fancied the option of making external compression damping adjustments. That turned out to be a set and forget option, but I did find the bigger forks had less stiction and made for a better ride. I used F4i brakes initially (which are good)  but moved to CBR600RR brakes because I think they have even better feel and power (I have similar CBR954RR brake parts on my VTR1000F and loved those). I never liked VTR1000F front brakes so never even considered those on my VFR. The non-VTR calipers don't quite mate with the VTR forks but the forks can be filed a little to make them fit perfectly and IIRC you should shim the calipers off the VTR fork leg slightly with washers for perfect centring of the disc and caliper, not needed if you use F4i forks. 

 

You'll need to concoct a spacer to mount the VFR fender to VTR forks, or get an F4i fender if you go the F4i forks. 6G triples fit perfectly but the ignition ends up slightly too high for the lock to mate with the socket in the frame, but you can space the ignition downwards with washers to correct that. The 5G wheel/axle/discs work great in either VTR or 6G forks. 

 

 At the rear I used an F4i master and you will be able to leave the VFR rear caliper alone and just join the two brake hoses at the new master using the double-length banjo that is freed up when you remove the rest of the brake plumbing. The hoses fit like Mr Honda planned on doing it that way all along. 

 

 

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On 7/3/2020 at 2:48 PM, mello dude said:

If you do the delete, please do it properly with a fork swap and upgrade the rear caliper.

I am not a fan of the kits that just replumb the hydraulics.

 

 I'm just curious, what is it exactly about re-plumbing the brake hydraulics to de-link the brakes that you aren't a fan of?

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I think the concern is that the master cylinders and total piston areas need to be matched so that you don't get either too much hydraulic advantage i.e. mushy but lock-prone brakes or too little advantage (wooden brakes).

 

The stock slave/master area ratios for the VFR are 15.7 F and 6.7 R; the leverage ratio is less for the rear beacuse you are using your strong foot not your weak hand to squeeze. fI you now join all the front pistons to the stock master the ratio goes to 22.1 and at the back it goes the other way to 5.7 (because instead of 2 rear and 2 front pistons you now drive 3 rear pistons). So ideally you would use a larger diameter front master and a smaller rear master to bring the ratios back to the ones chosen by NIssin.  

 

Having said all of that, my experience is that brakes and pads have a variety of "feel" between brands/models and it is entirely possible that an average rider would be quite happy with "non-optimal" brakes. I know from personal experience that what Honda provides is not always the best, as an example I put my old 12.7mm VFR master onto my ST1100 front brakes and they became much better to me, more power and feel and less wooden, at the expense of a slightly mushier lever (ratio going from 14.9 to 18.1). 

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