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Engine Management Light - front wheel speed sensor


Skids

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Sometime last year, the engine management light stayed on after engine start. As the bike was still under warranty, my local Honda dealer took it and diagnosed a faulty front wheel speed sensor, replaced it and I took the bike back.

A couple of months and a few thousand miles later, the same thing happened, quickly sorted by the dealer by again, replacing the front wheel speed sensor.

Near the start of the lockdown, I saw that the light was staying on again. This time I insisted that when they re-opened, they did a deeper investigation as I did not want a repeat. I managed to get the bike into the dealer at the start of this week and they have diagnosed the same front wheel speed sensor as the issue but have contacted Honda asking them for further guidance as to potential causes. Honda have replied saying that the next step, following a thorough check of the bike wiring, will be a wiring loom change.

The bike is a 2018 model with around 10k miles on the clock.

I've not heard of this issue before on the new model VFR800 but thought I'd let everyone else know just in case someone else experiences the same thing.

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On 29 May 2020 at 7:45 PM, Skids said:

Sometime last year, the engine management light stayed on after engine start. As the bike was still under warranty, my local Honda dealer took it and diagnosed a faulty front wheel speed sensor, replaced it and I took the bike back.

A couple of months and a few thousand miles later, the same thing happened, quickly sorted by the dealer by again, replacing the front wheel speed sensor.

Near the start of the lockdown, I saw that the light was staying on again. This time I insisted that when they re-opened, they did a deeper investigation as I did not want a repeat. I managed to get the bike into the dealer at the start of this week and they have diagnosed the same front wheel speed sensor as the issue but have contacted Honda asking them for further guidance as to potential causes. Honda have replied saying that the next step, following a thorough check of the bike wiring, will be a wiring loom change.

The bike is a 2018 model with around 10k miles on the clock.

I've not heard of this issue before on the new model VFR800 but thought I'd let everyone else know just in case someone else experiences the same thing.

Hi Skids.

Thanks for the heads up. Was the ABS light flashing a fault code, or just full on? Very strange they've replaced two front sensors, surely the sensor can't be at fault? They are only a simple two wire device and extremely reliable. Reckon a very close inspection of where the two sensor wires enter the 2P plug and the main plug at the ABS modulator might be needed, could be a badly crimped wire pin/socket, or possible corrosion, as well as a good continuity check of wiring from the ABS plug down to the sensor. Hopefully they would have done that! Just a thought.

Sounds like a frustrating exercise you're going through. Look forward to hearing what the issue is and hope they have it sorted ASAP.

Hey Skids. Just wondering, an outside chance. The LED driving lights you've fitted, I wonder if there is any noise/interference from them possibly effecting the wheel sensor, how close are the lights to the sensor wiring, and do the lights have an internal power supply that you know of? Did the issue occurr shortly after fitting the lights? Just a long shot! 

Cheers.

 

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Hi Grum

 

The only indication of the fault is the engine management light staying illuminated after engine start.

 

They've had a good check of the wiring and found nothing but replacement of the front wheel speed sensor has, yet again, turned the engine management light out. at least for now. It has one last chance to stay out before they start ripping into the wiring.

 

The LEDs, originally fitted to my 2015 Crossrunner, are mounted up on the engine bars, just below the level of the headlights, so nowhere near the front wheel speed sensor so I can't see it being that. They're powered from the OEM lighter socket on the LH upper fairing.

 

IMAG0776.thumb.jpg.ca2955b0a44da6fbb133340744662846.jpgIMAG0777.thumb.jpg.b5e52a52a6553a3bcf497ebf2b1b3beb.jpg

 

Thanks for the input though. :beer:

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  • 5 months later...
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Sadly this has recurred and the bike is with the dealer who is looking at wiring change. Not sure yet what the extent of the wiring change is and still waiting for them to confirm it's still a warranty claim, which it should be as far as I'm concerned.

 

As this system is identical to the 800F, I wonder if any 8th Gen owners have had the same issue?

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Hi Skids.

That's bad news. Haven't heard of any 8gens on VFRD with an issue like yours.

 

So let me get this right  I've been assuming its the ABS Warning light that's been coming on!

Are you saying it's the Engine Fault Light (MIL) that comes on and the diagnostic fault relates to the Front Wheel Sensor all the time? But the ABS Warning light is not illuminating while riding?

 

Have you been game enough to confirm the abs front braking is operating or not while the fault light is on? Also if you had a genuine Front Wheel sensor issue your auto cancelling indicators wouldn't auto cancel. So with the fault light on what is the situation with the indicators, do they still auto cancel?

 

There are fault codes in the ECM and the ABS for the Wheel Sensors. If your ECM has an issue with a wheel sensor signal it will bring on the Engine Fault Light (MIL). If the ABS modulator had a genuine issue with the wheel sensor then you would have the ABS Warning Light On and most likley the Engine Fault Light as well.

So what I'm getting at here is. If you are Not seeing your ABS fault light On AND you can confirm the abs operation is correct along with auto cancelling of your indicators. Then the issue could be the signal not getting from the ABS to the ECM causing the Engine Fault MIL light on and possibly not a problem with the abs system at all!

 

As for them replacing the abs wiring, I wonder how they intend on separating this from the wiring loom?

 

Interesting situation, hope they honour the warranty and have it properly sorted for you.

 

Good luck, keep us posted.

Cheers

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Hi m8.

 

It's the Engine Management Light that keeps coming on, I only see the ABS light before I start moving, as is expected and it goes out and remains out whilst riding. No, I haven't tried to lock the front wheel to see if the ABS works - the risks outweigh the reward on that one for me.

 

I haven't spoken with them in detail as I think they're still investigating but I will call them and ask where they think the issue lies and why.

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4 minutes ago, Skids said:

Hi m8.

 

It's the Engine Management Light that keeps coming on, I only see the ABS light before I start moving, as is expected and it goes out and remains out whilst riding. No, I haven't tried to lock the front wheel to see if the ABS works - the risks outweigh the reward on that one for me.

 

I haven't spoken with them in detail as I think they're still investigating but I will call them and ask where they think the issue lies and why.

Ok. So what about the indicators auto cancelling, do they auto cancel normally with the Engine Fault Light On? If so then there can't be a genuine fault with the front wheel sensor!

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I'm not sure if they do or not, I've only ever ridden it to the dealer with the EML on and as I ignore the self-cancelling bit anyway, I couldn't say.

 

As I'm not busy right now, I just called the dealer. Honda told them to "check the pins", I think she meant the connectors at the ECU, and they're all fine so Honda then said to test ride to see if the light comes back on, but seeing as it took 4000 miles for it come back on this last time, that clearly is not a final answer. The dealer quite rightly has told them this and they are awaiting a response.

 

If you ask me, I think it's an ECU issue, but I'm guessing now. 

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Well there are two things that could possibly point to the ECM or its wiring being the issue, and that is the auto cancel indicator function and abs dynamic operation, if both of those work normally in the fault state then the ABS itself is probably not at fault assuming the 800X is the same as the 800F!

 

Also just realised, your Traction Control would not be functional as well if you had a genuine Front Wheel Sensor issue!!

 

It's interesting that they have now replaced three (is it?) front wheel sensors yet the ABS Warning Light was never coming On at riding speed!!! Hmmm that's got to say something doesn't it??

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You are right Grum. I assumed they checked the fault log and saw a record of an ABS Sensor issue. Standard practice would be to simply replace the fault-indicated item. But 3 times? That's why they're now looking deeper.

 

If I had any skills, I'd have started looking myself but I've nearly gotten into bother over fiddling where I shouldn't have and nearly invalidating expensive warranty work before.

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On 11/26/2020 at 1:08 AM, Skids said:

You are right Grum. I assumed they checked the fault log and saw a record of an ABS Sensor issue. Standard practice would be to simply replace the fault-indicated item. But 3 times? That's why they're now looking deeper.

 

If I had any skills, I'd have started looking myself but I've nearly gotten into bother over fiddling where I shouldn't have and nearly invalidating expensive warranty work before.

 

Hi Skids.

Some interesting info for you. For the benefit of you and my own curiosity. Today I unbolted the front wheel sensor and took the bike for a ride. Both Traction Control AND ABS amber Warning lights remained ON and the Auto Cancelling indicators did NOT auto cancel. At no time did the Engine Malfunction light illuminate.

 

So I'm even more confident that if you have a genuine ABS issue you would at least have the ABS amber Warning light constantly ON not the Engine Fault Light. The fact that once you ride over 6kph and the ABS light goes out normally means the ABS has passed its own self check and considered functional.

Just like the ECM which has a whole bunch of DTC's (Diagnostic Trouble Codes) for the EFI system, so too does the ABS controller have its bunch of DTC's and if a fault detected is sent to the ABS amber Warning Light.

 

The one and only ECM DTC for the ABS system happens to be Code 67 for the Front Wheel Sensor input signal. If we assume there is nothing wrong with the ABS (because you never have an ABS Warning light On). Then there must be an issue with the signal or wiring or connections going to the ECM, or the ECM itself!!!.

The other strange thing is that if the ECM had a genuine issue with the Front Wheel sensor signal, then Traction Control cannot operate and surely this should illuminate your Amber TCS Warning light! So perhaps the ECM is just issuing a rogue non valid code OR its not a code 67!

 

Be interesting to know if the ECM is definitely sending a 67 code AND that any previous stored code had been erased from the ECM? Also important to know if the fault codes are exactly the same as the 800F, there might just be some differences and this might be a bit of a trap!

 

Again - This is all regards to the 800F. I can't guarantee that the 800X is exactly the same.

 

Hope this info helps.

Cheers.:beer: 

  

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Yes, thanks m8, greatly appreciated.

 

The bike is with a Honda dealer and their focus is now on the wiring and the ECU. I haven't heard from them since yesterday and as I'm in no huge rush for the bike, I'll leave them to it.

 

Rather strangely, Honda UK told them to test ride it to see if the light came back on whilst riding, but the dealer pointed out that as it took approx 4000 miles to re-illuminate this time, they don't really have the time to to that! :laugh:

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Update: Was chatting with the dealer yesterday and asked about reduced battery voltage possibly causing the ECU fault light to latch on as I had noticed that on my bike, when I press the starter, the motor cranks very slow for a fraction of a second, then picks up as normal (thanks for pointing that out Grum! :beer:). The bike always starts first time despite this. They've checked the battery and the voltage is dropping to 8v then recovering so they are claiming the battery is u/s and Honda have said that as it is now bringing up different fault codes, but to the same effect of latching the ECU fault light on, that it isn't covered under warranty because this is new and only occurred outside warranty.

What are the chances of 2 entirely separate faults causing the same ECU light for the first recorded time on a VFR800X/F? So I'm lodging a complaint with Honda UK.

Luckily, the dealer has said they will supply the battery cheaper than normal and fit for free. I said I would supply and fit one but then they made this offer and I thought I might as well.

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Well, I guess that sounds plausible. Low battery voltage can do strange things, a proper load test of the battery would confirm how down on capacity it is.

With a fault like yours it's a case of fit the new battery and try it out. But make sure, or suggest to the dealership to erase any stored codes in the ECM. If you have the fault again then there shouldn't be any confusion regarding an error code.

Good luck and hope the the new battery does the trick.

Cheers.

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Got the bike back from the dealer this morning. Chatting with the service tech that worked on her and he said the voltage was dropping down to 6v but only occasionally and he thought this could be what triggered the fault light, though why it should give a front wheel speed sensor fault indication beats me. He confirmed he'd cleared the fault codes so if it happens again, we may know some more.

 

Meanwhile new battery fires her up a lot better than before, even though she always started first time, now it is a lot crisper.

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