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Electrical issues at BAS


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My bike had to sit for a year while I dealt with family stuff, but I'm back at it. GRUM gave some great insight, and I've tried your suggestions.

This was my latest status:

 

- The problem seems to centre around the engine stop relay. With the key turned on, I get 12+ volts at three of the terminals: Black, Red/Orange and Black/Purple. I get 0.0 volts at the Black/White terminal. I also get 12+ volts at all three wires at the Engine Stop Sensor (BAS).

 

This was GRUM's response:

 

You appear to have established a faulty BAS, OR its wiring.

 

As mentioned the BAS provides the Engine Stop Relay coil Ground via the R/O wire through the BAS to the Green ground wire of the BAS. Without this Ground line the Engine Stop Relay cannot energize.

 

Your statement " I get 12v at all three wires of the BAS" should NOT be the case, the Green wire of the BAS is GROUND! In fact the same Ground wire the Fuel Pump uses. You should ONLY be seeing 12v on the BAS at the W/Blk wire in normal operation.

 

With your voltmeter black lead ideally on the Negative Battery terminal and your red voltmeter lead probing the BAS Green wire you MUST see 0v. If NOT then unplug the BAS and make sure the Green wire is properly connected to Ground as it needs to be (continuity check to Ground). Irrespective of your meter results MAKE SURE the Green BAS wire is properly GROUNDED as this appears to be your Main fault.

 

To verify your Engine Stop Relay works you can simply probe a temporary Ground wire to the R/O wire. With Ignition On you should hear the relay energize and hopefully your Fuel Pump Prime! 

 

As previously mentioned. You will NOT have any volts on the Black/White wire until the Engine Stop Relay energizes, that's it's job!

 

So I got a brand new BAS and I still get 12 volts at all three wires (Green, R/O and WH/BL) I can only have two plugged in at a time or the fuse blows as soon as I turn on the key. I cut the Green ground coming out of the BAS connector and wired it straight to the frame with a new, heavier gauge wire to test it. An impedance check of the R/O seems fine. With the BAS connection undone, I cut the R/O wire before the BAS connection and using a lead wire ground it to the frame. The fuse blew as soon as I turned the key.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

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Ok.

1 - Let's forget about the BAS for the time being, leave it unplugged.

2 - At the Engine Stop Relay OR using the BAS plug provide a Ground to the Red/Orange wire. Does the Relay energise AND does your Fuel Pump prime at Ignition Switch ON? You should not be blowing any Fuses doing this.! If you are still blowing the Fuse! Is it Fuse D 10amp? If so, then you may have a shorted relay, you can replace it with your Hi Beam Relay for trial.  If the Fuse you are blowing is Fuse B 20amp, then you most likely have a short downstream from the Engine Stop Relay. You need to be specific about what fuse is blowing!

 

"With the BAS connection undone, I cut the R/O wire before the BAS connection and using a lead wire ground it to the frame. The fuse blew as soon as I turned the key. "

If you blow Fuse D, then this comment seems to imply a short between the Black (+12v to relay coil) wire and the Red/Orange wire of the Engine Stop Relay. Grounding the Red/Orange wire should just energise relay! Have a good look at the relay base, are there any connections touching each other? As mentioned it may also be an internal short inside the relay

 

Let's know how you go.

 

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Thank you GRUM!

 

So I unplugged the BAS. I cut the R/O just before it gets to the connector and, using another length of wire, ground it to the frame. As soon as I turned on they key, the 20A Fuse B blew. 

I have rotated all four relays through the Engine Stop Relay (ESR) location with the same results, so I can't imagine that all four relays are bad. Continuity of the R/O from the ESR to the BAS connector seems to be good. 

 

With the key off and the BAS and ESR unplugged, when I probe the red lead of my voltmeter into the back of the ESR plug (where the wires enter), I get 12 volts from Blk/Pink to both the Blk wire and the Blk/Wht wire.

 

When I turn on the key, I get 12 V to the Blk/Wh wire, but 0 volts (actually about 0.2 volts) to the Blk wire. 

 

Regardless of key position, I get 0 volts from the Blk/Pink to the R/O wire, but the BAS is unplugged. 

 

Does this shed any light on the matter? 

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1 hour ago, CurtBrass said:

Thank you GRUM!

 

So I unplugged the BAS. I cut the R/O just before it gets to the connector and, using another length of wire, ground it to the frame. As soon as I turned on they key, the 20A Fuse B blew. 

I have rotated all four relays through the Engine Stop Relay (ESR) location with the same results, so I can't imagine that all four relays are bad. Continuity of the R/O from the ESR to the BAS connector seems to be good. 

 

With the key off and the BAS and ESR unplugged, when I probe the red lead of my voltmeter into the back of the ESR plug (where the wires enter), I get 12 volts from Blk/Pink to both the Blk wire and the Blk/Wht wire.

 

When I turn on the key, I get 12 V to the Blk/Wh wire, but 0 volts (actually about 0.2 volts) to the Blk wire. 

 

Regardless of key position, I get 0 volts from the Blk/Pink to the R/O wire, but the BAS is unplugged. 

 

Does this shed any light on the matter? 

OK. Make sure the Kill Switch is in RUN position.

 

With the ESR removed and BAS unplugged, with Ignition to OFF and with a good Fuse B installed you should measure 12v ONLY at the Black/Pink wire at the relay base.

 

With Ignition to ON you should measure 12v at both the Black/Pink and the Black wires at the relay base, provided Fuse D is O.K.

 

With the Relay removed you should NOT see 12v at the Black/White wire at ALL! Ignition ON or OFF.

 

Check Fuse D, is it blown as well?

Do You Have a Wiring Diagram to work from?

Make sure you have your Black meter lead on a GOOD Ground. Then probe your Red meter lead into the relay base.

"I get 12 volts from Blk/Pink to both the Blk wire and the Blk/Wht wire" with Ignition OFF, Are you saying you are reading 12v on each of these wires? That's not making sense!

So with ESR removed and the BAS unplugged are you still blowing Fuses when Ignition to ON?

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BAS and ESR removed, Kill switch set to Run.

 

With key off, getting 12v from Blk/Pink to ground (I am grinding the black Voltmeter lead on the same bolt where the battery is grounded, so assuming that it is a good ground). 

 

With Ignition on, I am getting 12v from Blk/Pink to ground and from Blk to ground. No fuses blowing. I do get 0.02v from R/O to ground and from Blk/Wht to ground, but assuming that is irrelevant?

 

The blowing fuses only seems to happen when I involve the BAS circuit.

 

 

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9 hours ago, CurtBrass said:

BAS and ESR removed, Kill switch set to Run.

 

With key off, getting 12v from Blk/Pink to ground (I am grinding the black Voltmeter lead on the same bolt where the battery is grounded, so assuming that it is a good ground). 

 

With Ignition on, I am getting 12v from Blk/Pink to ground and from Blk to ground. No fuses blowing. I do get 0.02v from R/O to ground and from Blk/Wht to ground, but assuming that is irrelevant?

 

The blowing fuses only seems to happen when I involve the BAS circuit.

 

 

Good. Your voltage measurements are now making sense and matching what you'd expect looking at the circuit diagram and as per my previous post. We can now progress!

 

If your BAS was faulty it would take out Fuse D NOT Fuse B. (We'll worry about the BAS later).

It appears you may have a short on the Black/White wire further downstream from the ESR (which is blowing your Fuse B the moment the ESR energizes).

So for the moment, let's just try and get the ESR to operate as we would expect it to......one step at a time, we'll get there eventually!

 

Try this.....

Remove Fuse B. And still with the BAS unplugged. Now install the ESR. Apply a Ground to the Red/Orange wire. Turn On the Ignition, do you hear the ESR click to energize? Remove and re-apply the ground on the R/O wire a few times, do you hear the relay clicking, every time you apply and remove the Ground?

 

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12 hours ago, CurtBrass said:

Removed Fuse B, Grounded R/O wire, turns on ignition and relay clicked!

Excellent. Your ESR now appears to be working normally (with the BAS not in action for the moment, and Fuse B removed).

 

Bit of a shame you didn't mention this very early on "Further note, I was blowing fuses with the original BAS." The Fuse you are blowing is Fuse B, which as mentioned, is Not involved with the BAS, so there's probably nothing wrong with your original BAS.

 

I hope you have a few spare 20amp fuses handy!!!?

 

Ok, so thinking about what could suddenly cause an electrical short by having your bike in hibernation for a year or so, my gut feeling is that maybe you have a seized Fuel Pump.

 

ALSO - Can you confirm that since your bike was last running properly and during the 12 months or so of hibernation that there has been NO changes/additions/mods to the electrical system?

Are there any previous non standard additions to your electrical system?

 

Try this....

Locate and remove the Fuel Cut Relay. (See attached Drawing)

Now insert a good Fuse B. Turn Ignition On and again Ground the Red/Orange wire to energise the ESR for a few seconds. Now check Fuse B. Do you still blow Fuse B?

 

image.png

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Removed Fuel Cut relay. Ignition on.

 

As soon as I grounded the R/O wire, Fuse B blew. 

 

I bought a mega pack of 20A fuses, so I am good to go on that front. 

 

And I have previously cut the wires to the fuel pump to test it. I ran it directly from the battery and it sounds perfect. 

 

I hope this helps!

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6 hours ago, CurtBrass said:

Removed Fuel Cut relay. Ignition on.

 

As soon as I grounded the R/O wire, Fuse B blew. 

 

I bought a mega pack of 20A fuses, so I am good to go on that front. 

 

And I have previously cut the wires to the fuel pump to test it. I ran it directly from the battery and it sounds perfect. 

 

I hope this helps!

M8 wish you'd mentioned these things earlier, I wouldn't have bothered with the Fuel Cut Relay check if I knew the Fuel Pump was ok.

 

I've added a couple of questions for you on my previous post. Can you answer them for me.

 

So you have a short on the Black/White wire downstream from the ESR. The main 12v feed for ALL the Fuel Injection stuff.

 

Let's go back to the BAS and tidy up this area.

Remove your blown Fuse B but don't replace it yet and get the wiring of the BAS plug all back to normal. Then

Do this.......

At the BAS plug place your Voltmeter probes on the Green and the White/Black wires of the plug. Turn Ignition to ON. Do you read 12v?

If YES.

Now carefully add a shorting link between the Green and the Red/Orange wires at the plug (be careful NOT to touch the White/Black wire of the plug with your link). You should hear the ESR click when adding and removing the link. Do you hear the ESR click?

If YES.

Switch OFF your Ignition and plug in the connector into the BAS plug. NOW turn On your Ignition and listen carefully as you do. Did the ESR click when turning On the Ignition? You can easily repeat this test by operating your Kill Switch, with Ignition ON flicking your Kill Switch On and Off you should hear the ESR click.

This confirms the BAS is working if you hear the ESR click.

 

When finished make sure the Kill Switch is returned to the RUN position. If all is ok with the BAS we can move on to finding the short taking out your Fuse B.

 

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BAS won't be "going bad" unless you crash and crack it, then all the fluid inside eventually drains or evaporates out and going over bumps will cause it to kill the ignition until you cycle the key. Won't blow any fuses. If you shake the BAS around, and don't hear it rattle, then the damping fluid is still in place. You can jumper the outer pins to each other on the harness plug to run without the BAS and that won't blow any fuses. Blown fuses are coming from something/somewhere else. Could be the wires to the BAS, but not the unit itself.

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16 hours ago, KevCarver said:

BAS won't be "going bad" unless you crash and crack it, then all the fluid inside eventually drains or evaporates out and going over bumps will cause it to kill the ignition until you cycle the key. Won't blow any fuses. If you shake the BAS around, and don't hear it rattle, then the damping fluid is still in place. You can jumper the outer pins to each other on the harness plug to run without the BAS and that won't blow any fuses. Blown fuses are coming from something/somewhere else. Could be the wires to the BAS, but not the unit itself.

Hi Kev.

Pretty much agree with your comments. Although I have experienced a faulty BAS on a Honda ST1100 that looked fine but just wouldn't work.

 

Have made the OP aware of by-passing the BAS as you've suggested, and that if there was an internal issue with the BAS (say a short of its 12v input) it would blow Fuse D,  NOT the Fuse B which is the fuse he's blowing, the major 12v supply for all EFI stuff. 

 

Due to some erroneous Voltage measurements early on really confused situation. Trying to sort out his bike issues from 13,000k's away is tricky, relies on good accurate info from the OP!

We are now back on track using the slow Step by Step approach, next will be sorting out the short he appears to have on the Black/White wire (EFI 12v feed), causing his Fuse B 20amp to blow.

Cheers.

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Hello GRUM,

Mother's day is now over and I'm back at it.

 

I've been to Australia a few times but never made it to Melbourne, but I certainly owe you several rounds of whatever you drink. 

 

Followed your last instructions for the BAS and with the BAS connected, Fuse B removed and Ignition on, I am getting a clicking (energizing) at the ESR when I toggle the Kill switch. I understand your comment that I appear to have a short on the Blk/Wht wire. Sadly, the Blk/Wht wire seems to go a lot of places, so I assume that I will have to test it segment by segment?

 

Using my Ohmeter, I seem to have a good connection on the Blk/Wht wires from the ESR to the Fuel Cut Relay (FCR). 

 

When I use the Ohmeter to probe from the Blk/Wht wires from either the ESR or the FCR to the Blk/Wht wire at the PFM-FI/ECM, it shows no continuity. Obviously a short, but not sure if it helps narrow it down. 

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Hi mate, welcome back.

OK so we have the BAS all sorted now back to the real issue.

 

So for the third time! Can you answer the questions below.

Can you confirm that since your bike was last running properly and during the 12 months or so of hibernation that there has been NO changes/additions/mods to the electrical system?

Are there any previous non standard additions to your electrical system?

 

YES - You should be reading Zero Ohms from the Black/White at the ESR to the same wire at the ECM Plug B Gray Connector. This is certainly an issue, but not one that should take out a 20amp fuse you'd think.

 

OK. So with the ESR and the FCR removed and with NO fuse B installed. Set you meter to the 200 Ohms scale or if you have a fancy auto ranging meter then select ohms.

Try this.....

Place one probe on Battery Neg terminal and the other on the ESR Black/White Terminal. What is your reading?

Seeing you are blowing a 20amp Fuse you should be see lower than 0.6 of an Ohm, basically a short.

 

Once you've determined the short with the meter have a good look at the ESR and FCR bases make sure the wiring looks good and there is no exposed Black/White wire that could be touching frame etc. Just a good visual inspection of the relay bases that everything looks right.

Let me know how you get on with the above. AND THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS I MENTIONED EARLIER!!!

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Grum said:

Hi mate, welcome back.

OK so we have the BAS all sorted now back to the real issue.

 

So for the third time! Can you answer the questions below.

Can you confirm that since your bike was last running properly and during the 12 months or so of hibernation that there has been NO changes/additions/mods to the electrical system?

Are there any previous non standard additions to your electrical system?

Sorry for overlooking your questions earlier. When I first had the problem, I followed some advice on this site and checked the stator and R/R. Both looked to be shot, and the connector was black and burnt, so replaced both as well as the battery. But I assumed that they wouldn't be causing my short circuit, although bad voltage out of them probably contributed. 

I was also burning out headlights before the bike died, so while it has been dead I also replaced headlight wiring with Eastern Beaver H4 assembly, headlights work when key turned on. The headlight issue was probably connected to the bad stator and R/R, and the Eastern Beaver assembly seems like a quality bit of wiring. 

 

Other than that I have not done any mods whatsoever, and the bike was very stock when I bought it in early 2018. 

 

With my crappy Ohmeter set at 200, I am getting no reading at all. But my neighbour is an electrician and he'll be home soon, so I'll borrow his Ohmeter and get back to you asap.

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So with the fancy auto ranging meter, Placing one probe on Battery Neg terminal and the other on the ESR Black/White Terminal, I get a reading of 0.4

 

 

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44 minutes ago, CurtBrass said:

 

Sorry for overlooking your questions earlier. When I first had the problem, I followed some advice on this site and checked the stator and R/R. Both looked to be shot, and the connector was black and burnt, so replaced both as well as the battery. But I assumed that they wouldn't be causing my short circuit, although bad voltage out of them probably contributed. 

I was also burning out headlights before the bike died, so while it has been dead I also replaced headlight wiring with Eastern Beaver H4 assembly, headlights work when key turned on. The headlight issue was probably connected to the bad stator and R/R, and the Eastern Beaver assembly seems like a quality bit of wiring. 

 

Other than that I have not done any mods whatsoever, and the bike was very stock when I bought it in early 2018. 

 

With my crappy Ohmeter set at 200, I am getting no reading at all. But my neighbour is an electrician and he'll be home soon, so I'll borrow his Ohmeter and get back to you asap.

Firstly, very good of you to make a donation to the forum. This great forum can't survive without donations from its members. So often people join up, get their problems sorted and you never hear from them again. So making a financial contribution is much appreciated. I promise to go the extra mile to help you out and my consultancy fees shall be greatly reduced!:fing02:

 

Your bike history Does shed some extra light on your problem. "Burning out headlights" is a classic indication of Overvoltage and this can only be caused by the R/R not the Stator.

An overvoltage situation is a very nasty situation indeed as this can, and has, caused flashover/shorts within the ECM.

 

It is vitally important that you are getting consistent voltage and ohmic readings otherwise you'll do my head in and send us off into a wild goose chase. So yes get your mates good meter and throw that piece of shit meter you have in the bin!

 

Get back to us ASAP and we can get some serious fault finding going on.

 

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4 minutes ago, CurtBrass said:

So with the fancy auto ranging meter, Placing one probe on Battery Neg terminal and the other on the ESR Black/White Terminal, I get a reading of 0.4

 

 

OK .4 of an Ohm is your short, causing the blown fuse.

Did you do a good inspection of the Relay bases as suggested?

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Yes, It's a Fluke meter, and he's lending it to me as long as I need it. He has a few. 

 

I have done a visual inspection of relay bases and they seem good, no sign of any corrosion or overheating on the wires, and no cracks or anything like that. Is there any way that  I can test for voltage bleedover (or whatever it's called)?

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31 minutes ago, CurtBrass said:

Yes, It's a Fluke meter, and he's lending it to me as long as I need it. He has a few. 

 

I have done a visual inspection of relay bases and they seem good, no sign of any corrosion or overheating on the wires, and no cracks or anything like that. Is there any way that  I can test for voltage bleedover (or whatever it's called)?

Excellent. Let's move on.

 

From now on the ESR Black/White wire will be the meter reference point. So see if you can somehow connect your Red Meter Probe to this point without having to hold it in place.

 

Your statement of no continuity on the Black/White wire to the ECM needs to be checked as well as isolating the ECM for shorts.

 

Do this.......

Unplug the ECM Plug B. It's the Light Gray Plug.

Now, with Ohms selected on the meter place your Black meter lead on the Black/Whte wire socket/pin of the ECM plug you pulled, (your meter Red lead is at the ESR point I suggested, correct?). MAKE SURE you are on the Black/White wire pin/socket.

Do You Get Continuity ie Zero Ohms measured on the meter? If Yes then the wire is O.K.

 

Now with the ECM plug still pulled move your Black meter lead to the Negative Battery Terminal. ARE YOU STLL READING YOUR SHORT of 0.4 Ohms? If the meter is now reading much higher, then you've located the short to within the ECM.

 

Get back ASAP so we can move on.

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With Red lead on ESR Blk/Wht and black lead on Blk/Wht at ECM plug, I get a reading of 0.4

 

With Red lead on ESR Blk/Wht and black lead on Blk/Wht at negative terminal, I get a reading that keeps rising

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11 minutes ago, CurtBrass said:

With Red lead on ESR Blk/Wht and black lead on Blk/Wht at ECM plug, I get a reading of 0.4

 

With Red lead on ESR Blk/Wht and black lead on Blk/Wht at negative terminal, I get a reading that keeps rising

Your first comment makes sense. So you do have continuity from the ESR to the ECM Black/White wire. That's good. Just confirming you ARE measuring on the removed Plug NOT the ECM itself?

 

Your second comment needs a little clarification, you mention the Black/White wire twice!! 

Again - If you are Now reading a much higher reading of 0.4 ohms between the ESR and Battery Negative terminal with the ECM plug pulled? What is the reading?

VERY IMPORTANT - Please Confirm this situation.

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My apologies, cut and paste error. 

 

I unplugged the grey ECM and probed the Blk/Wht socket there. 

 

With the ECM plug still pulled I then probed from the ESR Blk/Wht to the negative terminal on the battery. the reading started low and just kept rising. I unprobed at about 3.4

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