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My 2000 VFR will only start if the bike is in neutral.  Trying to start the bike in first gear with the clutch pulled in has no effect.

 

Any thoughts on what is causing this?

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First thought is your clutch switch and/or its wiring faulty. Check that and get back to us.

Have you recently change clutch lever to a non OEM type? If so, perhaps the new lever is not activating the clutch switch, I've heard of this happen before.

The clutch switch provides the ground path for the starter relay to energise when in gear and side stand up, for an in gear start.

Drawing shows clutch switch with clutch lever pulled in, Sidestand UP = The in gear start mode.

 

 

image.jpeg

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10 minutes ago, squirrelbrains said:

common problem if the diode is bad.

Wouldn't start in Neutral if that was the case! 

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On 5/2/2020 at 12:01 AM, Grum said:

Sidestand UP = The in gear start mode.

 

It took me a while to figure this one out on my own bike...

 

 

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On 5/2/2020 at 2:37 AM, Grum said:

Wouldn't start in Neutral if that was the case! 

i've been through enough VFR electrical problems for over 30 years to disagree with your assertion.  

 

of course....................i've been wrong before. ☹️

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5 hours ago, squirrelbrains said:

i've been through enough VFR electrical problems for over 30 years to disagree with your assertion.  

 

of course....................i've been wrong before. ☹️

You are most welcome to "disagree with my assertion" based on your 30 years experience. BUT please explain if I've got it wrong!! I'm more than happy to eat humble pie.

 

What I'm saying is that according to the drawing. If the diode is faulty, say Open Circuit. Then the starter coil has no ground path through to the Neutral Switch ground, so that means No start in Neutral. (Other than side stand Up and clutch pulled in.)

If the diode was Shorted. You'd be able to start in Neutral but every time you pull the clutch in with the side stand up your Neutral light would come On.

 

The Clutch Switch blocking Diode has no effect on the In Gear Sidestand Up start situation.

 

The OP states he has no issues starting in Neutral, only his in gear start is not working, as there can't be an issue with the side stand because he is able to ride the bike, then there has to be an issue with the Clutch Switch or its wiring.

Cheers.

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diode is just as likely likely to fail as open as shorted i think. don't have the engineering credentials to argue or explain, just my 'sperience on gens 2, 3, and 4.

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53 minutes ago, squirrelbrains said:

diode is most likely to fail open rather than shorted i think. don't have the engineering credentials to argue or explain, just my 'sperience.

I've seen many of both, and typically an excess voltage situation can short a diode, where excess load can cause an open. Or for some unknown reason they just randomly fail!

No different to seeing many a shorted or open transistor that I've experienced working with televisions a long time ago!!

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On 2 May 2020 at 9:12 PM, JimMoore said:

On some bikes you can cut the wires going to the clutch switch and wire them together. I haven't tried  it on a VFR, but it looks like it would work.

You could, and this would be handy in isolating a faulty clutch switch or its wiring, BUT not something you'd want to do permanently!, then you'd have the nasty situation of the starter trying to crank over a bike that's in gear if you forgot to pull the clutch in (and the Sidestand was UP of course). Not something you want to have happen.

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1 hour ago, Grum said:

You could, and this would be handy in isolating a faulty clutch switch or its wiring, BUT not something you'd want to do permanently!, then you'd have the nasty situation of the starter trying to crank over a bike that's in gear if you forgot to pull the clutch in (and the Sidestand was UP of course). Not something you want to have happen.

I read a suggestion on a different forum to use a standard blade fuse to jumper the clutch switch for diagnosis purposes; seemed like a sound proposition to me. But I agree, not something that you'd want to permanently bypass. 

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43 minutes ago, JimMoore said:

I dunno guys. I've had to do it on three or four bike. Beemers are famous for this. I leave them that way permanently, and I'm here to tell the tale.

Strange, why would you want to bypass the clutch switch on three or four bikes? Why not properly fix the problem? I don't know anything about BMW's safety and starting logic! Are you saying expensive BMW's are famous for faulty clutch switches? You've just turned me off ever owning one!

 

If you understand the circuit diagram above for a 5th and 6gen starting logic, then bypassing the clutch switch is only good for diagnostic purposes, leaving it bypassed is not something to do for reasons already explained. Clutch switches are installed for valid reasons, personally, I would never bypass one. However, the choice is yours!

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On 5/1/2020 at 7:47 PM, dbandler said:

My 2000 VFR will only start if the bike is in neutral.  Trying to start the bike in first gear with the clutch pulled in has no effect.

 

Any thoughts on what is causing this?

Kickstand down when you tried to start it in gear?

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6 hours ago, Grum said:

Strange, why would you want to bypass the clutch switch on three or four bikes?

Good question. That particular switch on the BMW is notoriously unreliable. It didn't make sense to me to replace an unreliable switch with another unreliable switch. I've had to do it on several different bikes.

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I had that issue on mine. The switch pin had worn down & the aftermarket levers I have fitted were not as thick on the piece that activates the switch, thus after a few years it stopped starting with the clutch in, like when you stall it. 
 

Check that clutch switch. 

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6 hours ago, Alaskan said:

Kickstand down when you tried to start it in gear?

Oh dear............... Good point. How would that be!! We've all assumed that he would know that the side stand needed to be Up. It's fair to say we've probably all been caught out by that one at some stage, and quite possibly, yet again.

Time will tell, if the OP gets back to us.

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28 minutes ago, Grum said:

Oh dear............... Good point. How would that be!! We've all assumed that he would know that the side stand needed to be Up. It's fair to say we've probably all been caught out by that one at some stage, and quite possibly, yet again.

Time will tell, if the OP gets back to us.

No, great point. I am rolling on the floor laughing!

 

While I can confidently say that I would not miss putting up the kickstand as the OP may have, I sympathize. I am much closer to him, or her, in skill level than to you, Grum, Seb, JZH, etc. When the experts on VFRD start their response with "once the forks are out of the triples," or "when you have the clutch plates on the bench," I know that you guys think it is Step A, but for me it is Step D.  Or much further down the alphabet!

 

Anyway, one of the reasons to stick with VFRD is that you can count on folks like Grum to help you out. Thanks.

 

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31 minutes ago, St. Stephen said:

No, great point. I am rolling on the floor laughing!

 

While I can confidently say that I would not miss putting up the kickstand as the OP may have, I sympathize. I am much closer to him, or her, in skill level than to you, Grum, Seb, JZH, etc. When the experts on VFRD start their response with "once the forks are out of the triples," or "when you have the clutch plates on the bench," I know that you guys think it is Step A, but for me it is Step D.  Or much further down the alphabet!

 

Anyway, one of the reasons to stick with VFRD is that you can count on folks like Grum to help you out. Thanks.

 

Although I've just checked the number of times I mentioned "Sidestand UP" in my postings and that's a total of 6.:wacko:

Thanks for your kind words St. Stephen. I get a buzz out of helping sick VFR's.(if I can) and learning from others.

Cheers.:fing02:

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Hi All,

 

Side stand is up and it still wont start in 1st gear with the clutch in.  Going to order a clutch switch and try that.  Will report back!

 

-David

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13 minutes ago, dbandler said:

Hi All,

 

Side stand is up and it still wont start in 1st gear with the clutch in.  Going to order a clutch switch and try that.  Will report back!

 

-David

You just need to connect the wires with a jumper to check if it's the switch

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If you pull the wires off the clutch switch and join them and it then can be started in gear/stand up, then you've found your culprit. Do you hear the clutch switch "click" when you pull the clutch in? Sometimes the switch gets a bit dirty and might need a squirt of CRC or WD40 to free up. You can also get a multimeter and check for continuity through the switch when the clutch is in. 

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On 5/5/2020 at 11:20 AM, dbandler said:

Hi All,

 

Side stand is up and it still wont start in 1st gear with the clutch in.  Going to order a clutch switch and try that.  Will report back!

 

-David

Phew.... we've been let off the hook. SS was in the UP position after all.

So yes back to the clutch switch. Try as suggested with a shorting link. What's the result?

WARNING - Don't forget to pull the clutch in with the shorting link fitted while in gear to test. Try it on your center stand if you have one.

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Hi Y'all - got it fixed this weekend!  The solution was actually just cleaning the clutch switch itself.  I think some dirt or grime must have gotten in there so it couldn't make a solid connection.

 

Thanks for the support!

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