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VFR later life failures


Fritzer

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After following 8200rpm’s post on his fifth gen thermostat/hose replacement, it got me to thinking about the other items on my 1999, with 60K miles, that will begin failing on my way to 100K+.  Fork seals, chains, are normal wear items, but what about these.

 

Water pumps.  Do they ever wear out?

Brake calipers, master and slave cylinders.  Any ideas when they generally need rebuilds?

Rubber OE hydraulic lines. 

Rear suspension.  How long do the swingarm bearings go before they need attention, if ever.

Rear wheel bearing.  That is a engineering masterpiece that looks pretty complicated.  Any noted failures there?

Front wheel bearings.  Those are regular sealed ball bearings.  Any longevity info there?

Fuel pumps. 

Steering Stem.  I can say from the experience of replacing mine at 50k, that this is a easily overlooked maintenance item.  Mine were shot and I didn’t notice it.  Every 40-50K on these would be my recommendation.

 

Siborg just did a thread about his caliper rebuilds before they fail.  There are those out there that have the firm belief of not fixing things that aren’t broke, and I get that perspective.  However, I am a little like Siborg.  If the probable failure time is near, I would rather do the work in the off season than while I am on the road somewhere far away from my shop.

 

Any information on what to expect in the future for my beloved 5 gen would be very welcome.

 

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Can only talk about my recent acquisition of same year, same mileage.... I went over the whole bike as I do with a new-to-me, and want a good baseline to start from... brake parts were in great shape, rubber lines looking their age but fine... replacing them with stainless anyway for some bling.  Swingarm bearings I didn't go after, but looking at the manual and parts diagrams, look pretty robust.  Rear suspension pivot I disassembled and greased, although it didn't really need it.  Check front wheel bearings at tire change time, if they start to feel notchy, get new ones.  I took the rear end all apart to inspect, bearings looked good, had grease, I cleaned them out a bit of old grease and re-greased making sure everything was clean before going together. I must say I was pleased things were good.

I did decide to replace all the rad hoses with silicone AS3's as I was going in for a valve check, etc., just decided to replace thermostat because I read of failures.  Bike is down and apart, I just went for it.  Hoses were in decent shape for 21 years old.

Steering stem bearings were shot, basically had self-centering steering.  Replaced with All Balls tapered rollers, first bike I ever did that with.  Put in upgraded fork springs, bush and seals OK, I would wait til they leak, try to clean up with Sealmate, but have new ones on the way at that point.

Valve check had never been done according to the PO, and all were nominal.. really surprised me.... happily buttoned that girl back up.

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Some of those items will be determined by how the bike's been maintained and ridden - i.e. if it's seen a lot of rain, wheel bearings are more likely to be suspect.  At 60,000 miles I'm going to guess that the suspension is pretty tired if not totally shot.  Hundreds of thousands of cycles on the shock / forks have taken their toll.  If the fork fluid was installed in Japan, it's almost surely toast.  Suspension work from Jamie Daugherty was THE best mod I've done to my bikes - totally transforms them and they weren't even at half the mileage you have. The other thing I would mention is the R/R.  If not so far, place a voltmeter across the battery and observe the charging voltage as the engine revs.  It wouldn't surprise me if the voltage drops as RPM's come up.   If you're not getting consistently in the 14v range and particularly if it's the OEM R/R, go to Roadster Cycle and pick up a Shindigen unit and eliminate that common failure point. 

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98 with 69k on the clock. Head bearing just done. Rebuilt all calipers (some pistons corroded-replaced all anyway). Put braided hoses (don't recommend unless your rubber hoses are faulty or worn). Previously the oil cooler pipes were leaking and rusted thru so if you ride during winter protect these. Also replaced fork springs the old ones were an inch shorter when I took em out. Also Rectifier plug was melted so had to wire that and check the ground connections. The dashboard circuit also needed some bypasses as some were rusted. 

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If you haven’t already, I would check your clutch master cylinder and slave cylinder. My MC was leaking fluid onto my fairings (‘98 with 33k). I opted to rebuild the slave cylinder while rebuilding the MC and that thing was filled with caramel sauce and scale. Also that little brass bushing inside the lever that mates with the master cylinder piston rod was worn completely through!

 

I also rebuilt all the brake calipers because I wasn’t happy with the feel of the brakes. I believe that the brakes are the most important component on a motorcycle. The poor condition of my clutch hydraulics were an indicator for how the braking system was maintained. The brake system was filled with caramel and coagulated bloody snot. I rebuilt the front lever master cylinder and all the calipers, front and back. 

 

I skipped rebuilding the secondary master cylinder (on the left fork leg) and rear pedal master cylinder out of laziness and empty hope that they got less intense use (compared to the front) so less wear. I’ll probably rebuild those next time I flush/re-bleed the hydraulics.

 

The vacuum bleeder was a waste of money. I bought speed bleeders on my second attempt at bleeding the system, and it was SO MUCH easier.

 

Oh yeah. Bleeding the combined braking system can be a chore if you’ve never done it before. Follow the sequence in the service manual. Have at least a liter or two of DOT 4 on hand. Don’t be surprised if you need to re-bleed once or twice but hopefully not three times  There are A LOT of junctions and sections where air can hide in this system. 

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31 minutes ago, 8200rpm said:

The vacuum bleeder was a waste of money. I bought speed bleeders on my second attempt at bleeding the system, and it was SO MUCH easier.

I have a pneumatic bleeder, so I just ziptie the lever and let it pull vacuum, while dumping fluid into the master cylinder reservoir. It’s super-easy. 

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17 hours ago, Fritzer said:

Rear wheel bearing.  That is a engineering masterpiece that looks pretty complicated.  Any noted failures there?

 

 

Here are my axle and bearing care notes that I send out to RC30/ RC45 club members...

 

Because the RC30 and RC45 and VFR employ the same  91062-MR7-003 caged needle

bearing that rides directly on on the rear axle I offer my method to clean both the

axle and bearing...

gallery_3131_51_61974.jpg


Once you have the bearing removed you employ a two jewelers screw
drivers and carefully lift each roller from the cage...
gallery_3131_51_49199.jpg


Give the rollers and cage a bath in gasoline... you be surprised at
all the dirty deposits hidden in the old grease and every nook and
cranny... you're looking at the deposits after only 10K miles of
normal operation...
gallery_3131_51_47395.jpg


Once the bearing are really clean lay them out and inspect each roller
for scoring...
gallery_3131_51_41593.jpg

 

Dirt mixed with the old grease will leave a trail of deposits on the
axle at point B...
gallery_3131_51_14606.jpg

 

Spun in a Lathe... it's easy to remove the deposits employing a gray
micro fine 3M pad... it's soft enough that it does *not* remove any
precious metal...
gallery_3131_51_40032.jpg

 

What you'll end up with is an axle with the deposits remove plus
giving the metal a nice luster...

gallery_3131_51_39038.jpg

 

With the bearing cleaned and axle shinning you're ready for fresh grease and another 10K miles...

 

 

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3 hours ago, ducnut said:

I have a pneumatic bleeder, so I just ziptie the lever and let it pull vacuum, while dumping fluid into the master cylinder reservoir. It’s super-easy. 

 

Brake Bleeding

As you can see in the drawings the zip tie suggestion doesn't
accomplish much because as you squeeze the lever the piston blocks the
path of bubbles (blue) from reaching the reservoir... but if you leave
the lever at rest the piston retracts enough to uncover the port so
the bubbles (blue) can travel all the way to the reservoir...

 

post-3131-0-96682700-1371880534.jpg

 

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I noticed when I pulled the rear wheel bearing out soon after purchase, that there was another set of bearings in addition to the needle bearings you talk about here.  What kind of maintenance would you do for those?

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1 hour ago, Fritzer said:

I noticed when I pulled the rear wheel bearing out soon after purchase, that there was another set of bearings in addition to the needle bearings you talk about here.  What kind of maintenance would you do for those?

The RC30 RC45 and VFR employ the same 91061-ML0-731 double ball
bearings which only have a single dust seal which affords easy access
to clean and repack with grease...

DSCN1315.JPG

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2 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

 

Brake Bleeding

As you can see in the drawings the zip tie suggestion doesn't
accomplish much because as you squeeze the lever the piston blocks the
path of bubbles (blue) from reaching the reservoir... but if you leave
the lever at rest the piston retracts enough to uncover the port so
the bubbles (blue) can travel all the way to the reservoir...

 

post-3131-0-96682700-1371880534.jpg

 

I ziptie the lever of the pneumatic bleeder, so it continually pulls vacuum and I only need to keep the fluid topped up. 

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3 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

The RC30 RC45 and VFR employ the same 91061-ML0-731 double ball
bearings which only have a single dust seal which affords easy access
to clean and repack with grease...

DSCN1315.JPG

Thanks for the rear axle bearing maintenance procedure.  I have been wondering about how to repack them.

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5 hours ago, Fritzer said:

Thanks for the rear axle bearing maintenance procedure.  I have been wondering about how to repack them.

You're welcome...

 

To remove the cassette from the swingarm it may be necessary
to shoot compressed air at the 6 "O" Clock position to remove foreign
objects such as rocks and dirt that may hang up the cassette from
coming free of the swingarm...

 

Special Tool... after you remove the dust seal and retaining clip...
fabricate a 1/4 thick 2.200 diameter aluminum special tool to
press out the needle bearing...

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1 hour ago, Fritzer said:

Has anybody experienced a water pump failure?  

Never experienced a total failure like unable to circulate coolant but
I've experienced water pump leaks from the weep hole... I substituted
5th gen VFR pump for the stock RC45 pump since they both employ
virtually the same water pump 19200-MW4-010 versus 19200-MBG-000

 

 

 

 

 
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48 minutes ago, BusyLittleShop said:

Never experienced a total failure like unable to circulate coolant but
I've experienced water pump leaks from the weep hole... I substituted
5th gen VFR pump for the stock RC45 pump since they both employ
virtually the same water pump 19200-MW4-010 versus 19200-MBG-000

 

 

 

 

 

What was the mileage on the pump?

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On 4/2/2020 at 6:46 PM, raYzerman said:

Can only talk about my recent acquisition of same year, same mileage.... I went over the whole bike as I do with a new-to-me, and want a good baseline to start from... brake parts were in great shape, rubber lines looking their age but fine... replacing them with stainless anyway for some bling.  Swingarm bearings I didn't go after, but looking at the manual and parts diagrams, look pretty robust.  Rear suspension pivot I disassembled and greased, although it didn't really need it.  Check front wheel bearings at tire change time, if they start to feel notchy, get new ones.  I took the rear end all apart to inspect, bearings looked good, had grease, I cleaned them out a bit of old grease and re-greased making sure everything was clean before going together. I must say I was pleased things were good.

I did decide to replace all the rad hoses with silicone AS3's as I was going in for a valve check, etc., just decided to replace thermostat because I read of failures.  Bike is down and apart, I just went for it.  Hoses were in decent shape for 21 years old.

Steering stem bearings were shot, basically had self-centering steering.  Replaced with All Balls tapered rollers, first bike I ever did that with.  Put in upgraded fork springs, bush and seals OK, I would wait til they leak, try to clean up with Sealmate, but have new ones on the way at that point.

Valve check had never been done according to the PO, and all were nominal.. really surprised me.... happily buttoned that girl back up.

Regarding the steering stem bearings, when I replaced mine at 50k miles, I discovered they were ball bearings instead of tapered.  I couldn't believe how smashed out the bearing races were.  I guess I never thought much about how much pressure the bearings took from front end forces.  Tapered bearings make a lot more sense since they can spread out the force more contact area.  What product did you use in lieu of the stock bearings?

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4 hours ago, Fritzer said:

Regarding the steering stem bearings, when I replaced mine at 50k miles, I discovered they were ball bearings instead of tapered.  I couldn't believe how smashed out the bearing races were.  I guess I never thought much about how much pressure the bearings took from front end forces.  Tapered bearings make a lot more sense since they can spread out the force more contact area.  What product did you use in lieu of the stock bearings?

16K miles and divots were starting. I went with an All Balls Racing tapered set. 

7D017506-ED56-49B5-A8EE-519F54867CF0.jpeg

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I've never had a cooling system failure in over 200,000 miles on four fifth gens. My first was KIA'd (deer) at 105,000+ miles. My current '01, bought with 10,700 miles on the odo is now approaching 68,000 miles. The only daylight seen by these engines has been through the spark plug holes. These Hondas are the most reliable machines I've ever owned. And I'm 70 years old.

On 4/2/2020 at 8:10 PM, Fritzer said:

Water pumps.  Do they ever wear out? None of mine have.

Brake calipers, master and slave cylinders.  Any ideas when they generally need rebuilds? None of mine have.

Rubber OE hydraulic lines.  None of mine have.

Rear suspension.  How long do the swingarm bearings go before they need attention, if ever. None of mine have.

Rear wheel bearing.  That is a engineering masterpiece that looks pretty complicated.  Any noted failures there? None of mine have.

Front wheel bearings.  Those are regular sealed ball bearings.  Any longevity info there? None of mine have.

Fuel pumps.  None of mine have.

Steering Stem.  I can say from the experience of replacing mine at 50k, that this is a easily overlooked maintenance item.  Mine were shot and I didn’t notice it.  Every 40-50K on these would be my recommendation. All of mine have; the first of my machines at 70,000+ miles, the youngest at 28,000+ miles.

 

  I hope your experience is equal to or greater than mine.

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22 hours ago, Fritzer said:

What was the mileage on the pump?

Stock pump covered 57K miles... not in moderation either...

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With regard to fuel injection Fuel Pumps:  The answer is "you don't know" (caveat: unless you actually hook up a fuel injection system test rig to verify pump pressure, which nobody ever does).

 

The truth about the fuel pump that supplies a fuel injection system is that it is designed (specified by the engineers) to run at more than the required system pressure.   The fuel pressure regulator installed in the system is the item that is used to guarantee correct fuel pressure arrives at the fuel injectors.  The reason that the fuel pump is built (design specified) to deliver a higher-than-necessary pressure is it's a known fact that over time the internal parts of the fuel pump will wear, original tolerances (inside the pump's electric motor for instance) will widen a bit or get sloppy or have more mechanical drag, and as a result the output pressure will fall.  This means that at some point you may end up with a fuel pump that is just barely meeting the required pressure for the system (i.e. the fuel pressure regulator really isn't "calling the shot" any more because there's no excess system pressure to "regulate").  Or worse, your fuel pump's ability to generate pressure drops below the required system pressure for the engine's needs.  How would you know? (without hooking the pump up to a fuel injection pressure test rig)

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Water Pumps are wonderful things because they don't keep secrets. 

 

The water pump has 2 seals inside of it (located on the impeller shaft): one seal prevents the crankcase oil from leaking out and the other seal prevents the coolant from leaking out.  The only one of these 2 seals that ever fails is the coolant-side seal.  And when the coolant-side shaft seal fails it always does it very slowly and gently.  And it gives you lots of warnings that it is planning to check out sometime in the future.

 

When the coolant-side shaft seal begins to fail it will only "weep" out a drop of coolant at a time, and it will only do this while you're riding because the coolant system is only pressurized while the engine is running at operating temperatures.  When you stop riding and the engine cools off the coolant system pressure goes down to zero and the "weeping" of the coolant-side shaft seal will stop until the next time you ride. 

 

You can go like this for a long time, losing only a little coolant each time you ride.  If you're not bothered by the dried coolant stains along the lower left-hand side of the engine and on the fairing and the few drops of coolant on the garage floor.

 

Of course you can't go like this forever.  Once the seal starts "weeping" it is on its way (long term) to real leaking, so eventually, if you ignored it might put you in a stranded-on-the-roadside situation.

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6 hours ago, MaxSwell said:

The only daylight seen by these engines has been through the spark plug holes.

No valve checks or adjustments?

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On 4/5/2020 at 4:16 PM, 8200rpm said:

No valve checks or adjustments?

I've had the valves checked on two machines: my first fifth started running a little rough about 70,000+ miles. My dealer recommended a valve check so I had it done. Unfortunately I do not know exactly what the measurments were but the engine was back to it's original smooth operation. My next two did not have any valve checks (their mileage was between 20,000+ and 50,000+); these machines maintained there original smooth operation. My current ride, bought with 10,500 miles, now has 68,000+ miles and still runs as smoothly as when I got it; no valve check so far. I intend to have it evaluated my my dealer this spring; that may determine if a valve check is worth it. And my most recent purchase, a '98 with 50,000 miles had a valve check by the original owner at it's 36,000 miles service. 

 

So perhaps I over stated the the case of daylight thing. Having never done one my self, I really never considered all that was involved. I do much of the simple maintenance on my machines but would rather leave the complicated stuff to my fabulous dealer: Honda Town of Minneapolis. It's been a long-term family operation started in 1969.

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