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darkshad

Motorcycle won’t start – fuel pump not getting enough voltage.

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I have a 2002 red VFR 800 non-ABS, non-HISS (located in the United States).  Have done the pair, flapper, and snorkel mods.  Also have power commander V and a fuse box, but these items were removed to help troubleshoot motorcycle issue.

 

Motorcycle died on me when I was going home.  Tried starting it multiple times, and it had spark, but wasn’t hearing the fuel relay turn on when the bike is turned on.

 

Took it to the motorcycle shop to get it fixed.  They told me that my battery was shot and I needed a new battery.  Got a new battery.

They thought the bike not starting was the fuel pump at first, but then found that the starter relay switch was bad.  They replaced the starter relay switch, but that didn’t fix the issue.  The problem is that the bike isn’t getting 12 volts in order prime the fuel pump.

 

They spent several hours diagnosing the issue, and then concluded that maybe I had a bad ECU.  I bought a brand-new ECU off ebay, had it shipped to them, they installed it, and still the same issue.  They went through all the steps listed below in the Honda service manual and were stumped.

 

image1.jpg

 

 

The moto shop said that 12 volts are being sent to the ECU, but then when it comes out of the ECU, it’s not getting the voltage that is needed.  That’s why they suspected the ECU.

 

They said that they checked the wiring and all the wires had continuity, but they said that the next stop would be to replace the 3 wiring harnesses.  I had already spent enough money at the shop and they told me that the wires in the wiring harness were good, so I said, “no thanks” and picked up the broken bike from them and thought maybe I’d take a look at it.

 

This is what the bike did and still is doing right now.  Bike is in neutral and kickstand is up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When it comes to electronics, I don’t know much. I can check voltage, resistance, continuity, grounds, and can somewhat follow a wiring diagram.

 

When I put a jumper wire between the pins on the service check plug, I just get the FI light staying on.  I don’t get any error codes.

 

The Honda Service manual doesn’t state what things to look at after looking at the ECU.  So rather than re-doing the things they’ve already looked at, I’m looking for other suggestions.  I do have a copy of the Honda Service Manual (electronic) as well as a Haynes manual (hard cover book) for the VFR.

 

After doing some googling and searching on the VFR forums, I’ve found the following some folks talking about grounding issues.  Ie.

 

--big blue connector – potential ground issue.

--yellow ground connector – potential ground issue

--orange ground connector – potential ground issue

 

I have few questions about the grounds (see end of this post).

 

Besides grounds, and the other items in the Honda VFR repair manual the moto shop replaced and tested, what else should I be looking for?

 

Big blue connector – have a green wire on one side of the connector, but not on the other.  It appears that the recall changed the wiring, so that is why there is only one green wire and none on the other side.  Do I still need to look at grounding this connector?

 

image2.jpg

 

 

 

image3.jpg

 

 

 

Yellow connector – checked the grounds with a probe and the grounds looked ok, but need to take it a part.

 

Orange connector – ie.  (picture is from a fourm posting)

 

 

image4.jpg

 

Is this where the orange grounding block is?

 

image5.jpg

 

 

Appreciate any thoughts.

 

Thanks.

 

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did you pull the plugs?  i assume you did mine did the same it was flooded.

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Hi darkshad.

Mate, sounds like you've spent a fortune! Generally, Fuel Pump not priming or not running is an easy one to troubleshoot. 

 

What are the voltages at the Fuel Cut Relay? At Ignition ON you MUST see a solid 12v at the FCR two BI/W wires (see attached drawing). Check that first, what Voltage do you have?

Note - The ECM provides the controlling/switching GROUND signal to the FCR coil to energise it.

 

Check your Green Fuel Pump wire is properly GROUNDED - Do you get continuity back to the Negative Battery Terminal from the Green Fuel Pump wire?

 

When measuring voltages and checking ground wire continuity, its best to have your meter Black probe on the Negative terminal of the battery. All GROUNDS should measure continuity not just to frame BUT back to the Negative Terminal of the Battery.

 

Also make sure at the ECM Gray plug that B1, B2 and B14 are solid GROUND to the battery Negative terminal (continuity from these points back to battery negative) AND with Ignition ON you should see a solid 12v at B12.

 

Let's know how you go.

Hope this diagram will help.

 

image.png

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Hey,

 

Just wanted to say thanks much for your reply.  Please see my comments in purple below.  Had a chance over the weekend to perform the tests you suggested and created some short video clips as well.

 

On 6/27/2019 at 5:46 PM, Grum said:

What are the voltages at the Fuel Cut Relay? At Ignition ON you MUST see a solid 12v at the FCR two BI/W wires (see attached drawing). Check that first, what Voltage do you have?

Note - The ECM provides the controlling/switching GROUND signal to the FCR coil to energise it.

Getting 12v to both wires. 

https://youtu.be/21LwXo_5_Xc

[I incorrectly called it the engine cut-off relay instead of fuel cut-off relay]

 

Fuel cut-off relay check – relay looks good.

https://youtu.be/4LUIzmP166g

 

 

On 6/27/2019 at 5:46 PM, Grum said:

Check your Green Fuel Pump wire is properly GROUNDED - Do you get continuity back to the Negative Battery Terminal from the Green Fuel Pump wire?

Yes, I get continuity back to the battery from the green fuel pump wire.  See video clip below.

https://youtu.be/GWR6GUfCxRE

 

 

 

 

On 6/27/2019 at 5:46 PM, Grum said:

When measuring voltages and checking ground wire continuity, its best to have your meter Black probe on the Negative terminal of the battery. All GROUNDS should measure continuity not just to frame BUT back to the Negative Terminal of the Battery.

 

Also make sure at the ECM Gray plug that B1, B2 and B14 are solid GROUND to the battery Negative terminal (continuity from these points back to battery negative) AND with Ignition ON you should see a solid 12v at B12.

 

The three grounds from the ECM (B1, B2, and B14) I was getting continuity back to the battery.  B12, I was getting 12v when the Ignition switched to ON

https://youtu.be/keiiLNqogh8

 

 

 

Appreciate your help.  Next things to check?  Bank angle sensor and engine stop relay?

 

Thanks.

Jason 

 

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22 hours ago, darkshad said:

Appreciate your help.  Next things to check?  Bank angle sensor and engine stop relay?

Hi Jason.

 

OK.  So NO there is no need to check the Bank Angle Sensor or the Engine Stop Relay because you stated you have solid 12v at the FCR AND B12 of the ECM. This means the ESR is Energised as it should be at switch on.

 

Get your ear close to the FCR, at switch on do you hear the FCR click to energise for a couple of seconds then click off again (as it's supposed to)?

If it does energise for couple of seconds you MUST see 12v on the Brown wire of the FCR for that time, as well as 12v at the Fuel Pump connector. If you see the 12v at the Relay but not at the Fuel Pump conector Check continuity of the Brown wire of the FCR back to the Fuel Pump connector. Do you get good continuity?

 

If you do not hear the FCR energise then try this.

Have your meter again monitoring the voltage at the Fuel Pump conector Brown and Green wires.

At the ECM pull the Gray connector from the ECM, locate B18 the Brown/Black wire, you need to carefully apply or probe a Ground to this wire. At Ignition ON does the FCR click to Energise with the ground connected to B18 AND do you see 12v at your Meter? If you DO get the 12v then switch OFF, plug in your Fuel Pump, again apply the ground and Igniton to ON, can you hear the Fuel Pump running? If you do NOT get the relay to energise then the Brown Black wire from B18 to the FCR coil must be faulty - check continuity of that wire.

 

If you have any doubts about the FCR replace it with your Hi Beam Relay (after making sure your Hi Beam operates!)

 

Note - virtually all the wires involved with your issue go through that Blue Connector you showed a photo of (see your main wiring diagram). Have a very good look inside and out of that connector for any heat stress or poor connections.

 

Everything mentioned should make sense when looking at the diagram I posted.

Lets know how you get on.

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Alright.  All four of the videos links should work now.  I forgot to hit "publish" on them.

 

When I turn on the ignition on and engine switch on, I get the following voltages (see green).

 

I'm not sure what all of the voltages should be.  Should all 4 of the wires be 12v?  

 

my_diagram.thumb.jpg.8dc9e1125947a1462008c52db180b089.jpg

 

 

When I have the ignition/engine switch on, on the FCR, I do hear a click, but I don't hear it then click off.  

 

I tried swapping out the relay from the high-beam (verified that the high-beam was working) and got the same issue.

 

 

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I do have a wire splice in my wiring harness - don't remember if it was something that I did or if it was there before I put it in, but it may have something to do with the FCR not energizing properly.  Right now I have the end of this wire taped up and not connected to anything.

 

https://youtu.be/3pBvbOUXJU4

 

I left the wire alone because I thought maybe it was a 12v line I tapped into to power one of my accessories (ie. PowerCommander) which the motorcycle shop removed in order to diagnose the issue.  I need to do some more checking to see what wires are spliced together.

 

 

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Hi Jason.

I'm beginning to smell a Rat with your wiring modifications!!!!!!! That splice thing! Is shocking, the exposed nut that clamps that brown wire is at 12v, touch frame and you have a dead short!!!!!

 

Your video seems to show that you have this splice connected to the Black/Pink wire. This is the main 12v feed from your battery 30amp Fuse B to the Engine Stop Relay. So, anything hanging off this wire is at 12v potential at ALL TIMES!.......SO, DO NOT ALLOW THAT LOOSE WIRE TO TOUCH FRAME, you will blow your 30amp main fuse or cause smoke!!!!! The wire you have with the in-line fuse in it is obviously to power some non standard device, do not let the spade type lug touch frame!!!! It will blow its inline fuse, if it hasn't already done so!

 

The important thing here is that the Engine Stop Relay and its wiring is NOT your issue as its roll is to supply 12v power to BOTH the FCR and your ECM via the Black/White wire, you have already confirmed that this is correct.

 

Are you saying that with the FCR Energised you are NOT seeing 12v at the plain Brown wire???? What is the state of the FCR socket connector? Do you feel the relay contacts are making good contact into the socket.

With the FCR Energised you MUST see the 12v on the Black/White wire move across to the plain Brown fuel pump wire? Are you sure you are measuring with the relay energised? And as mentioned, if things are working correctly the FCR will ONLY energise at switch ON for a couple of seconds. PLEASE THOROUGHLY CHECK THIS.

The FCR will NOT remain energised at switch on beyond a couple of seconds, UNLESS there is a Ground short on the Brown/Black relay control wire from the ECM B18 to the FCR - Or a faulty ECM.

 

SO TO CONFIRM THE STATE OF THE BROWN/BLACK CONTROL WIRE - ECM B18 TO FCR - DO THIS.

Remove the FCR, unplug the Gray conector from the ECM. Locate B18 Brown/Black wire. Check you have good continuity from B18 to the Brown/Black wire at the relay socket of the FCR. Then check that the Brown/Black wire has NO shorts to frame i.e There should be NO continuity between the Negative of your battery and the wire.

 

Get back to us with results of these checks.

 

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14 hours ago, darkshad said:

When I turn on the ignition on and engine switch on, I get the following voltages (see green).

 

I'm not sure what all of the voltages should be.  Should all 4 of the wires be 12v?  

 

 my_diagram.thumb.jpg.8dc9e1125947a1462008c52db180b089.jpg

 

Again, with Ignition ON you should see 12v at the two Black/White wires. AND for the time the relay is energised you MUST see 12v at the plain Brown wire. It would make sense for you to see 12v at the Brown/Black wire ONLY while the relay is NOT energised because this point needs to be at Ground to energise the Relay through the ECM! It appears your measurements are taken when the FCR is NOT energised!

It concerns me you say you have continuity from the Black/White wires (12v Power wires) to B18 which is the FCR control ground from the ECM to the FCR!!. UNPLUG the Gray ECM plug and recheck continuity. If you only get this strange continuity when the Gray plug is in the ECM this may point to a faulty ECM.

 

While you have the Gray ECM plug OFF.

DO THIS - as mentioned before. With the FCR in and Ignition to ON, voltmeter probes at the Fuel Pump Connector. Place a Ground onto the Brown/Black wire at B18. The relay should energise and you MUST see 12v at the Fuel Pump connector. WHAT DO YOU GET?

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Side question for Grum. I have an 02 as well, and blew the Main B fuse. Trouble shooting showed a hard ground on the B12 Bl/W circuit. I isolated this to the ECM. No grounds showing with B plug (Grey) unhooked. I checked the ECM and am showing a hard ground between B12 and B14/15/16. B1/2 check good (0 ohms between), and DO NOT show a connection to B14/15/16. I have no other pins showing 0 ohms to B14/15 & 16. Per the PINOUTs, B16 is the Speed sensor input (and should not be grounded). I am thinking that I will need to pull my tank and check the speed sensor and its wiring, as that may have shorted, and smoked the ECM via B16, and into B12 created a hard ground across the circuits. I can not find an internal schematic anywhere for the ECM, and thus can not verify a shared internal component that may have shorted out. I am about to buy a new ECM, and wanted to be sure before I did so. Any thoughts? (And sorry for the thread soft-jacking).

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On 4 July 2019 at 12:48 AM, Ladajo said:

Side question for Grum. I have an 02 as well, and blew the Main B fuse. Trouble shooting showed a hard ground on the B12 Bl/W circuit. I isolated this to the ECM. No grounds showing with B plug (Grey) unhooked. I checked the ECM and am showing a hard ground between B12 and B14/15/16. B1/2 check good (0 ohms between), and DO NOT show a connection to B14/15/16. I have no other pins showing 0 ohms to B14/15 & 16. Per the PINOUTs, B16 is the Speed sensor input (and should not be grounded). I am thinking that I will need to pull my tank and check the speed sensor and its wiring, as that may have shorted, and smoked the ECM via B16, and into B12 created a hard ground across the circuits. I can not find an internal schematic anywhere for the ECM, and thus can not verify a shared internal component that may have shorted out. I am about to buy a new ECM, and wanted to be sure before I did so. Any thoughts? (And sorry for the thread soft-jacking).

Hi Ladajo.

Are you going by the basic drawing I posted at the top of this thread? It's is somewhat generic and may NOT be entirely the same as your bike. Do you have a proper drawing for your bike? For example my 6gen drawing shows the Speed Sensor going to A21 and B16 is Signal or Sensor ground to multiple sensors! And B15 on my main drawing is the Cam Pulse and Ignition Pulse common (same as A15 on the above posted drawing). So, make sure you are working with exactly the right main drawing for your bike. It certainly sounds like your ECM is toast because I am confident across the models that B12 is Power to the ECM and B14 is a Ground so you have a short between B12 and B14 within the ECM and that's a No No. I also have no info of the internals of the Honda Black Box!

I am no EFI expert, just have a reasonable understanding of power distribution around the bike etc.

Good Luck.

Cheers.

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I found discrepancies between many docs. Including inside the service manual. The trade show pinout shows B16 as VSS, and the 2001 schematics show the VSS feed going g to the B plug.

That said, tomorrow I am going to ring it out to be sure. I will figure out what the three pins are tied to. My bike is a California 2002 with a frame sticker that says 2002, VFR8002

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On 28 June 2019 at 3:53 AM, darkshad said:

Bike is in neutral and kickstand is up.

 

On 28 June 2019 at 3:53 AM, darkshad said:

When I put a jumper wire between the pins on the service check plug, I just get the FI light staying on.  I don’t get any error codes.

Could be why the Fi light is staying on with service plug jumper, side stand should be down, kill switch run position.

 

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On 7/3/2019 at 7:37 PM, Grum said:

Hi Ladajo.

Are you going by the basic drawing I posted at the top of this thread? It's is somewhat generic and may NOT be entirely the same as your bike. Do you have a proper drawing for your bike? For example my 6gen drawing shows the Speed Sensor going to A21 and B16 seems to be a power supply output to multiple sensors! And B15 on my main drawing is the Cam Pulse and Ignition Pulse common (same as A15 on the above posted drawing). So, make sure you are working with exactly the right main drawing for your bike. It certainly sounds like your ECM is toast because I am confident across the models that B12 is Power to the ECM and B14 is a Ground so you have a short between B12 and B14 within the ECM and that's a No No. I also have no info of the internals of the Honda Black Box!

I am no EFI expert, just have a reasonable understanding of power distribution around the bike etc.

Good Luck.

Cheers.

(This file has been removed as it was updated on 5July2019. The newer version is in a post below.) Attached is the ECM pinouts for my 2002 VFR800 in an excel sheet, and included photos of ECM Connectors A (Black 26 Pin) and B (Gray 26 Pin). The noted discrepancies from the Service Manual are Green/Pink (G/P) Frame Ground showing a connection for Plug A (Black) when it is not there, but on Plug B Pin 2, and White/Yellow (W/Y) Ignition Pulse Generator & Cam Pulse Generator shared Common which shows in manual as a Plug A connection when it is on Plug B Pin 4 (I need to ring this one out). There is also a White/Yellow on Plug B Pin 15 which I believe to be O2 Sensor 3-4 Heater Control (grounding switch for on) and also need to ring out to verify. The last bit is I need to ring out Plug B pins 17 & 22 to verify which is which regarding Intake Duct Control Solenoid Valve Control & the Purge Control Solenoid Valve Control. I hope this helps folks out, as it has been a journey in research and on-bike testing to figure this out. Maybe someone can take my spreadsheet and graphically edit the wiring diagram to show the pin numbers and connection fixes.

 

As for my issue, I have ordered a new ECM, and expect it here early next week. I also ordered a Honda ECM Pinout Testing Manual which I found on e-bay for $17. Hopefully it will validate the research I have done. Additionally, I have checked the Speed Sensor and it is good. I remain skeptical regarding root cause of the ECM shorting out at Plug B (Gray) Pin 12 (12V power) to ground at Pins 14/15/16. I am now going to check for faults on the O2 Sensor 3-4 Heater Common connected to Plug B (Gray) Pin 15, and O2 Sensors 1-2 & 3-4, MAP Sensor, ECT Sensor, IAT Sensor, and Throttle Position Sensor Common Return connected to Plug B (Gray) Pin 16 (which will also let me verify that these are what are hooked up to this pin, or if it is the Ignition Pulse Generator & Cam Pulse Generator common). My sense is that Plug B (Gray) Pins 15 & 16 are switched-on grounds to energize these components when the ECM boots up. And as such, should not be hard grounded on a disconnected ECM. I will check the replacement unit when it gets here to see if these Pins are hard connected together internally with Plug B Pin 14 (Frame Ground). In the mean time, if I find one of the above mentioned components as toasted, then I will feel a lot better about why the ECM died and be more confident with installing the replacement and powering it up. 

20190704_102242.jpg

20190704_102323.jpg

20190704_102356.jpg

20190704_102413.jpg

 

Edited by Ladajo
Excel Sheet updated on 19July2019 to show corrected pins.
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Good job Ladajo. Rechecked my comment regards B16, it either Sensor Ground or Signal Ground, not power to the sensors.

A correction for you. According to my info!

B4 White/Yellow is O2 Sensor 3-4 HTCL.

B15 White/Yellow is Cam Pulse and Ignition Pulse common.

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1 hour ago, Grum said:

Good job Ladajo. Rechecked my comment regards B16, it either Sensor Ground or Signal Ground, not power to the sensors.

A correction for you. According to my info!

B4 White/Yellow is O2 Sensor 3-4 HTCL.

B15 White/Yellow is Cam Pulse and Ignition Pulse common.

Thanks for the feedback. I just was out there and forgot to verify B4 & B15. Gah! I will go back out, and then fix the spreadsheet accordingly. 

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Hi Grum.

 

Made some good progress today.  As I said in the first post, I bought a new ECU, because the motorcycle shop said that the ECU was probably bad.  They swapped the ECU to the new one I bought and it still had a problem (at least according to them).

 

For the fun of it, I decided to swap the ECU out for the other one I had, and the engine cut-off relay is now being energized and is now sending 12 volts to the fuel pump connector for the few seconds when the engine start switch is started.  

 

So I'm now getting 12v to the fuel pump.  Whooo!

 

Added some gas to the fuel tank, tried hooking up the fuel tank/fuel pump, and although pump was getting 12 volts, it still wasn't priming.  Took off the fuel pump connector and applied 12 volts directly from the battery and still no go, so think I have a bad fuel pump as well - although the motorcycle shop said my fuel pump was good and I have the hour shop charge on my bill to prove it.

 

So, looks like I need a new fuel pump. 

 

There's some cheap ones on ebay (ie. 20 bucks) but seems too cheap and not sure if it includes everything.  ie. this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-Fuel-Pump-Kit-w-Filter-2002-2009-VFR800-VFR-800-Interceptor/111876828638?epid=1454541795&hash=item1a0c60edde:g:jRcAAOSwA~VaS79l:sc:USPSFirstClass!65203!US!-1

 

Looking at ordering one of these two fuel pumps which are less than 100 bucks, but want to double-check that it will be what I need.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/02-09-2002-2009-HONDA-VFR-800-OEM-FUEL-PUMP-GAS-PUMP-GUARANTEED-VFR3/293125665723?hash=item443fa6b3bb:g:~eoAAOSwyNtdCjo6:sc:USPSPriorityFlatRateBox!65203!US!-1#viTabs_0

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/02-03-04-05-06-07-08-09-HONDA-VFR800-INTERCEPTOR-FUEL-PUMP-GAS-PUMP/143191001836?hash=item2156d94aec:g:4tIAAOSwusdb~yBj#viTabs_0

 

The second link appears to be off of a 2007 vfr 800.  Will that work for a 2002 vfr 800 non-ABS?

 

Think the mystery is almost solved - hopefully a new fuel pump will solve this new problem and the bike will be back up and running.


Appreciate all of your help. 

 

 

 

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Hi Jason.

Glad you've finally made a positive step forward. Haven't ever replaced a fuel pump so the choice is all yours the OEM part number is 16700-MCW-D02. Partzilla have the item for $347! The same Fuel Pump is used from 2002 to at least 2009.

Lets know how it all goes with the new Fuel Pump.

 

A little word of advice once your bike is up and running, stop using the Kill Switch, it really is for emergency use. If you stop your engine with it and do not turn OFF the Ignition by being distracted or whatever you could end up with a flat battery as your headlights will be burning away, so good habit to get into is switch OFF via Ignition Switch.

Good Luck with the new pump.

Cheers.

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I have rung out the pins to bike check B4 & B15. Grum your information is correct and I have updated the spreadsheet to reflect this. I also verified B17 & B22 as correct.

Attached is the updated sheet. Thanks for the tip on B4 & B15 Grum.

Discrepancies noted on the VFR Engine Management Trade Show Graphic are: On the EUROPEAN Model A25 shows as both the HISS signal input and Injector 3 Control (obvious error), while on the US 2002 A25 traces as Injector 3 Control. In addition, the Speed Signal Input is pin A21, not B16. I have attached an edited version of this graphic as well with these corrections.

I have removed the old sheet from the previous post to prevent bad info. If you have downloaded it, please delete that and download this updated one.

On my issue, I still have not found anything that looks bad. Again, once I get the replacement ECM/ECU I will check pins B14/15/16 to see if they are indeed internally connected together as the ground. So far the only one that is Frame Ground per wiring is B14, the others MAY be switched grounds.

I remain suspect as to why B12 shorted out to ground internally in the ECM...

 

2002 VFR800 ECM Pinouts Traced v1.1 5July2019.xlsx

2002 VFR800 Engine Management Schematic Revised 5July2019 for US California Model.png

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On 7/4/2019 at 1:32 PM, Grum said:

Good job Ladajo. Rechecked my comment regards B16, it either Sensor Ground or Signal Ground, not power to the sensors.

A correction for you. According to my info!

B4 White/Yellow is O2 Sensor 3-4 HTCL.

B15 White/Yellow is Cam Pulse and Ignition Pulse common.

Thanks for the feedback. I just was out there and forgot to verify B4 & B15. Gah! I will go back out, and then fix the spreadsheet accordingly. 

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Ok, I got the replacement ECM ECU. I compared pin readings, and B12 was not shorted. All else checked out. Of note was that B1& B2 are hard connected I eternally, as are B14, 15, & 16. After not finding any obvious issues with other components on the 12V shared line connected to B12, I installed it and bike fired up. 🙂

Being sceptical as to why my old ECM ECU failed at B12, I made some checks on the Altenator and Regulator Recitifier power generation and regulation. At idle, all looked normal, I rev'd up and down and saw good readings from Alternator, and then checked regulation. Not good. Was at 19V and decided it was not regulating the voltage. Note to self, check regulated voltage first next time. Sooo, I think I have a bad RR and it fried my ECM ECU B12 12V input with over voltage, causing a short to ground (pins B14/15 &16). Now I feel much better about root cause. And, having caught it, believe I will not fry my ECM ECU B12 12volt feed once I replace the RR. This is going to be my third RR for the bike.

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I just ordered a Rick's MOSFET Regulator Rectifier. Found it on Ebay at RaceTechElectric for $100. Should be here in a few days. More thumb rolling while I wait for it. The previous one was an ElectroSport ESR438. Put it in about 4 years ago. Piece of shit. I don't have any wiring issues, or hot connectors. Seems to be a quality issue. Let's see how the MOSFET holds up.

I am considering direct connecting it to the battery. However, I need to look at the Black monitor wire before I do that. As I understand it feeds 12V to some essential circuits. The Rick's write up says "we do away with that". Without having it in hand, it seems that maybe they jumped that pin in the RR connector to the Red +12V output. 

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10 hours ago, Ladajo said:

I just ordered a Rick's MOSFET Regulator Rectifier. Found it on Ebay at RaceTechElectric for $100. Should be here in a few days. More thumb rolling while I wait for it. The previous one was an ElectroSport ESR438. Put it in about 4 years ago. Piece of shit. I don't have any wiring issues, or hot connectors. Seems to be a quality issue. Let's see how the MOSFET holds up.

I am considering direct connecting it to the battery. However, I need to look at the Black monitor wire before I do that. As I understand it feeds 12V to some essential circuits. The Rick's write up says "we do away with that". Without having it in hand, it seems that maybe they jumped that pin in the RR connector to the Red +12V output. 

Hi Ladajo.

The R/R Black wire is some form of Monitor or a Sense wire, it's job could be to sense the voltage at the supply end point, then feed that info back to the R/R so as to drive the output to achieve the correct volts at the supply end point. (Hope I'm making sense here!). OR, it could be used for output Overvoltage protection. Without knowing the internals of the R/R it's a bit of a guess. But it's not a 12v supply output from the R/R and appears to have no continuity to any other connection of the R/R.

 

As you can see by my attached 6gen drawing (Australian U version) it is slightly different to the way the Black sense wire is wired per the 02 service manual drawing, in that case if you follow out the wiring of the Black Sense wire it is monitoring the voltage out of Fuse C.  I can understand why Ricks states "we do away with that". However, with the OEM R/R this wire could be (but not sure) critical to an Overvoltage situation if it was not tied to the R/R's output. 

 

Can understand the 19v you measured would have done the damage to your ECM. Just hope the new one survived it for the short time you ran your engine.

 

And NO it doesn't "feed 12v to some essential circuits" it simply monitors it. Look closely at the way it's wired per 02 Service Manual. See bottom Drawing 02 Service Manual Charging System, modified to show Fuse C services.

 

Good luck with the new R/R.

Cheers.:beer:

 

Wiring for U version 6gen Australia.

image.png

 

 

02 Service Manual modified drawing.

6gen_Charging_Sys_American.jpg

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10 hours ago, Grum said:

Hi Ladajo.

The R/R Black wire is some form of Monitor or a Sense wire, it's job could be to sense the voltage at the supply end point, then feed that info back to the R/R so as to drive the output to achieve the correct volts at the supply end point. (Hope I'm making sense here!). OR, it could be used for output Overvoltage protection. Without knowing the internals of the R/R it's a bit of a guess. But it's not a 12v supply output from the R/R and appears to have no continuity to any other connection of the R/R.

 

As you can see by my attached 6gen drawing (Australian U version) it is slightly different to the way the Black sense wire is wired per the 02 service manual drawing, in that case if you follow out the wiring of the Black Sense wire it is monitoring the voltage out of Fuse C.  I can understand why Ricks states "we do away with that". However, with the OEM R/R this wire could be (but not sure) critical to an Overvoltage situation if it was not tied to the R/R's output. 

 

Can understand the 19v you measured would have done the damage to your ECM. Just hope the new one survived it for the short time you ran your engine.

 

And NO it doesn't "feed 12v to some essential circuits" it simply monitors it. Look closely at the way it's wired per 02 Service Manual. See bottom Drawing 02 Service Manual Charging System, modified to show Fuse C services.

 

Good luck with the new R/R.

Cheers.:beer:

 

Wiring for U version 6gen Australia.

image.png

 

 

02 Service Manual modified drawing.

6gen_Charging_Sys_American.jpg

Hi Grum,

Thank you. I did a little more digging and found out it is the regulator feedback wire which the OEM style RRs use as a reference voltage for regulator output. When red is, the RR cranks up output to charge a low battery. When red is high, the RR lowers output voltage to compensate for a charged battery. If the wire is cut or has degraded connections, thereby dropping voltage across each one, the OEM style RR can reach a max output condition and exceed voltage ratings of components on the bike. Apparently light bulbs are the first to go. The newer style MOSFETs do not use a separate voltage feedback sensing line, as they monitor the actual outputs and regulate that way. This helps prevent the bad feedback line over voltage issue. My feedback line rang out nice and clean both for resistance, and for dropped volts under power. Also, my DC output varies directly with Alternator spin speed, indicating an unregulated full wave bridge. I also hope there was no damage when I was testing. I did not leave it up high, it was fully transient, and I only did it once. Given I was less than 150% operating voltage, and short duration, things are probably ok. Once I get the new RR,I will go around and check all the lights, as they seem to be considered the weakest link. Additionally, I bought a stick on flat face DC Voltmeter, which I will hook to the 12v monitor wire to have a running indication of bike voltage. This will provide better notice of any charging system or other electrical issues, hopefully prior to expensive damage.

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