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Motorcycle won’t start – fuel pump not getting enough voltage.


darkshad

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On 3 July 2019 at 3:18 AM, darkshad said:

do have a wire splice in my wiring harness - don't remember if it was something that I did or if it was there before I put it in, but it may have something to do with the FCR not energizing properly.  Right now I have the end of this wire taped up and not connected to anything.

 

https://youtu.be/3pBvbOUXJU4

 

Hi Jason.

Can I suggest while you're waiting for your Fuel Pump to arrive, how about you tidy up the splice you have on the Black/Pink wire. That wire is the main power feed to ALL your EFI stuff including the ECM so you really shouldn't mess with it, definitely use some other power source, not the EFI power rail. Remember, the Black/Pink is connected to your battery, so any work on that wire, disconnect your battery first.

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Grum,

 

Sounds like a plan.  Once I get my bike stable again, I do have a PowerCommander V and electric tank bag I'd like to get working again.

 

I have a fuse box (PowerHub2 - see URL with instructions below) I was planning on putting back in and it will require a switched 12v connection.  Is there a better 12v I should tap into?  The tail lights?

 

http://files.twistedthrottle.com.s3.amazonaws.com/Installation Instructions/Denali/Instructions_ELC.00.30000_rev01.pdf

 

 

17 hours ago, Grum said:

Hi Jason.

Can I suggest while you're waiting for your Fuel Pump to arrive, how about you tidy up the splice you have on the Black/Pink wire. That wire is the main power feed to ALL your EFI stuff including the ECM so you really shouldn't mess with it, definitely use some other power source, not the EFI power rail. Remember, the Black/Pink is connected to your battery, so any work on that wire, disconnect your battery first.

 

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When I had issues with mine last year, the Honda dealership discovered a faulty primary charge wire.

Replaced it and everything came together.

I'm no tech so I don't know exact terms, but even with the factory harness replacement years prior, it still happened.

Currently on my 3rd stator as well, with a new 4th sitting in the garage.

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I received and installed my new Regulator Rectifier. It came really fast, shipped international Fedex from Canada. It was estimated for no later than Friday, and arrived yesterday. So, after install (mounted right in, and plugs hooked right up - no mods required), then with an oil change (3.3 qts Castrol Power 1 4T 10W-40 full synthetic & a Purolator Pure One PL 14610 3.25 inch filter) conducted while I was grilling short ribs, then dinner, then testing all good. After dinner I put the fairings back on, and then rode her to work this morning. Yay!

I will install the little voltmeter I got from Amazon this weekend, and then will have a running indication of system voltage at all times. 🙂 I plan to hook this up to the relay next to the battery, so it is only on with the bike in run.

I think the new MOSFET RR will reduce the heat burden on the stator, as well as provide a better regulated system voltage, in addition to being able to provide up to 50 amps for load, which is much better than the old RRs (OEM and Electrosport). Hopefully, this means I won't kill another stator or computer for the remaining life of the bike.

On that note, I do have two stators in my garage the OEM, and the Electrosport which are good cores if anyone is looking for rewind stock. I also have the OEM RR, and the Electrosport RR for science projects, since they are both done. The OEM shows one diode leg in spec. when cold, however it is actually cooked, so when it heats up that leg goes away. The Electrosport, as noted, does rectify, however it is not regulating, thus it is dependent purely on AC in level for the DC out level.

 

Voltmeter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SRP2XD5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Ricks MOSFET from Ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mosfet-Regulator-Rectifier-For-Honda-VFR-800-RVT1000R-RC51-2000-2007-2008-2009/232547357017?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

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Hi Ladajo. Glad you're up and running. What is your charging voltage.? I purchased from fleeBay for around $5 a three wire voltmeter, means you can directly connect to the battery and the third wire to a switched 12v that powers the meter, so no relay required, works a treat, mounted neatly on GPS cradle.

Enjoy your ride.

Cheers.

 

image.jpeg

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14.6V highest recorded at about 7k rpm. It stabilized at that level around 3.5k as I recall, and then didn't really get any higher.

Definitely regulating...  🙂

I think I will connect it to the fuse block, and the 10a fuse off the ignition switch.

Thanks for your help!

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Hey Grum.

 

New to me fuel pump has arrived, as a test, hooked it up to the fuel connector and heard the fuel pump prime.  So it appears that my old fuel pump was bad.  Goal for this weekend is to replace the fuel pump, get the bike started, and get everything put back together so I can go for a ride.

 

Thanks for your help and troubleshooting steps/tips.

 

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2 hours ago, darkshad said:

Hey Grum.

 

New to me fuel pump has arrived, as a test, hooked it up to the fuel connector and heard the fuel pump prime.  So it appears that my old fuel pump was bad.  Goal for this weekend is to replace the fuel pump, get the bike started, and get everything put back together so I can go for a ride.

 

Thanks for your help and troubleshooting steps/tips.

 

That's good news hope you'll be back on the road again shortly. So your motorcycle place where you had all the work done had left the faulty ECM in and did not diagnose a faulty fuel pump! - interesting!

AND - make sure you properly repair that horrible splice to the Black/Pink wire which is the main power feed to ALL the  EFI.

Keep us posted. 

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Installed my voltmeter. Decided to mount it between ignition key and head stock. Looks like a good spot. I initially thought to wire it to the 12volt wire feeding the handlebar brake switch. Then after soldering that to the hot side (switched with ignition), I couldn't find a decent ground point. Sooo, I poked around and found the green plug accessible under the cowl on the left. Popped out the ground, soldered my negative to that, reinserted and Bob's your Uncle, and possibly Cousin as well. Sometime later I will move the Hot side to the Black/White switched 12v on the same green plug. Photos below. 20190714_180803.thumb.jpg.55c6e4ec989c5d38d1e9d3558f374549.jpg

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6 hours ago, Ladajo said:

Sooo, I poked around and found the green plug accessible under the cowl on the left. Popped out the ground, soldered my negative to that, reinserted and Bob's your Uncle, and possibly Cousin as well. Sometime later I will move the Hot side to the Black/White switched 12v on

Hi Ladajo. Looks good. You've wired your meter into the Bank Angle Sensor plug!. Have you tried comparing the voltage directly on the battery using your multimeter and the voltage displayed on your added voltmeter? Is there any difference? I'd be interested to know if your seeing exactly the same voltage. You might not be seeing a true reading of what the R/R is sending to the battery.

 

 

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I will check. I was thinking it might be the temp sensor. Hadn't looked it up yet. Either way, just using the ground for now. Later as I said I will switch to put both wires there. My sense is it might be reading low. I have it on the charger tonight as I had done multiple ons with no run, as well as starts 

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Riding to work this morning, I had 13.1 to 13.2Vdc on the meter. I did notice my idle is a little low, currently at about 800-850. I will tweak it up a bit. When it goes to full idle, the generated volts drop low and the system is floating on the battery, and drawing it down. When I played with the throttle a little to bring it up to 1100 to 1200 rpm, to simulate where idle should be, I was then getting volts around 12.5 to 13. This showed me that the idle setting ABSOLUTELY matters for these bikes due to generated power. Later today, when I get home I will compare with my Fluke between direct from the battery to where I hooked in the meter. I will probably wait until the weekend to move the (+) wire for the meter from the handlebar brake switch hot to the Bank Sensor green plug under the front cowl. I used a 13/64" micro screwdriver to pop the terminal out of the plug body, literally pushed right out, easy day. Quick solder job, and then press it back in and make up the connector and done. For anyone with a soldering iron, a tool to get the pin out of the plug, and the $10 meter, this hook up is clean and fast. Literally 15 minutes if you have your tools at hand. I highly recommend this as the go to place to hook up a DC Voltmeter for the 6th Gen. 

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Ok, so I thought it may be reading a little low. And with your prompt Grum, I  did check when I got home today. It appears I am dropping a volt in their across the connectors and fuses. I will do some half splitting this weekend o ce I move the 12v wire for the meter to the 12v pin on the Bank Sensor. I did adjust the idle to 1200, and it makes a difference in generated volts at idle. Photos below. Short of the long of it, make sure your idle is set right to help limit electrical heating due to higher amps at lower volts. I also let it run with the fan on and off to see how she was handling the load. All good as you can see in the pics. I did try it at idle with fan on, and high beams, and she didn't like that. Got a higher voltage drop, and definitely was pulling on the system she did run, and with some throttle was ok, however based on the experiment,  don't run at idle with high beams on for extended period. Oh, for the record, I do have the 115mm rotor / stator kit. Look at rpm and temps in the pics as well so you can see fan status and where I had revs.20190715_184502.thumb.jpg.1d4f391b1c7b17dbf3dced93ce0a2470.jpg

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So the point I was getting at is, to see what your charging system is really doing you should monitor it at the battery and you've just proven that. 

Looks like you are seeing some voltage drop through lead length, connectors etc for BOTH ground and positive, they all add up!

Looking at the Fluke Meter readings at the Battery, it appears your charging system is good. Idle RPM needs to be 1200rpm, when engine up to temp.

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Alright. An update.  I put the new to me fuel pump in, but it was leaking around the gasket.  Tried a few times and still no go.  Ordered a new gasket today and also ordered some gasket sealant which was recommended by VFR folks when I did some googling on the forums.

 

gasket sealant

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007VIGCJW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

 

When I was planning on hooking up the gas tank, one thing I was searching for was the air vent hose.  I can't seem to find it.  I have a short hose that I found, but it's not long enough, to reach. Does the hose disconnect in pieces?  I'm wondering if maybe I only have the one piece and no the other.  I tried looking in the Honda manual, but it wasn't terribly helpful.

 

I found this picture online (see third to last picture) - so looks like I'm looking for a skinny gray hose. 

http://members.home.nl/jfknippels/tank_removal.html

 

 

Is the hose all gray, or does it have a stripe on it?  I have a grey hose with a stripe which is long enough, but I believe it a vacuum hose which goes to the air intake valve, and since I have the pair/snorkel/flapper mods done, for the mod the vacuum hose is left disconnected.  ie. see this youtube video.

https://youtu.be/6uH6rzhbNrc?t=193

 

 

Thanks.

 

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9 hours ago, darkshad said:

Is the hose all gray, or does it have a stripe on it?  I have a grey hose with a stripe which is long enough, but I believe it a vacuum hose which goes to the air intake valve, and since I have the pair/snorkel/flapper mods done, for the mod the vacuum hose is left disconnected.  ie. see this youtube video.

 https://youtu.be/6uH6rzhbNrc?t=193

Sorry! You said you've done the Flapper mod and you're not sure wether it's the vacumm line or the fuel tank vent! Ummm wouldn't your flapper Vaccum hose be blocked OFF at the end if you've removed it?

 

Wasn't the Tank Vent Hose and the Filler Overflow attached to the tank before you removed it to fit your Fuel Pump?

 

You should have three drain hoses at the bottom of your bike these are the Tank Vent, Coolant Resevoir Overflow and the Fuel Filler Overflow. You should be able to easily work out what's what just from following these hoses back!

Good luck hope you're up and running soon!

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12 hours ago, Grum said:

So the point I was getting at is, to see what your charging system is really doing you should monitor it at the battery and you've just proven that. 

Looks like you are seeing some voltage drop through lead length, connectors etc for BOTH ground and positive, they all add up!

Looking at the Fluke Meter readings at the Battery, it appears your charging system is good. Idle RPM needs to be 1200rpm, when engine up to temp.

Yes, I agree, there is definitely some resistance in the loop. I was pondering last night on whether it is better to monitor at the battery or out on the bike on the 12V main switched bus. I am kind of leaning towards the latter as it seems to me that this is the best indicator of a failing ground, fuse holder, or multi-pin plug. I see your logic about monitoring directly at the battery, however if I do this, I will not see a distribution system failure, only when it is too late. Thoughts?

On the other note, I will do some checks this weekend and look for high resistance points from power to return, as indicated by half-splitting in the wiring and finding the largest voltage drop(s). From there I can assess if I need to redo/repair/clean any connection points or faulty wires (or undersized for load). Every connector I have opened has looked good, no heat marks, no corrosion. However, as noted I am losing a volt or more somewhere(s). And, it seems to be higher when under heavy load, up to the order of ~1.5 VDC. 

I do appreciate your clear and well grounded (pun intended) knowledge on this bike. It is clear you have done some mileage (pun intended again). All your comments and thoughts are welcomed by me. Historically, I was a 250 dirt biker, and then spent some time on a GS700E, and then back to dirtbikes (and snowmobiles), and then this bike. While I have owned it since new, I do not ride it as much as I wish, thus she is very low miles for her age (16780). I put on 8 miles per day in commute, and then a little outside of that sometimes on the weekend. I am hoping to do some more touring in the fall. The last good run I had was a number of years back in VA and WV, with a couple of buddies. We made a multi-day run from Chesapeake, Virginia up into the Blue Ridge Mountains in West Virginia. Beautiful riding, except the flats in VA (smoking hot, long and boring).

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  • 3 weeks later...

An update - tracked down where the hoses go.  Got some different gasket sealant for the fuel pump.  Going to look at it tomorrow and hopefully there will be no more leaks for the fuel pump so I can attach the gas tank to the motorcycle and hopefully at least get it started.

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Success!  I got the motorcycle started and running last night.  Still need to put everything back together, but now it at least runs.  

 

Resolution to my issue:

My ECU was bad so I needed a new ECU.  Even after replacing the ECU, the fuel pump wouldn't prime.  I got a "new to me" fuel pump, tested it out and it primed, so now needed to get the fuel pump back in the gas tank.  The metal around the lip of where the fuel pump goes into the gas tank is very thin and bends easily.  I had two small bends that I used a small pair of pliers on in order to get the bend out.  I used a new fuel pump gasket and put a bunch of sealant called "Seal-All" which acts as both a glue/sealant and is gas/oil resistant and applied it to both the gasket side of the fuel pump as well as the metal around the lip of where the fuel pump goes into the gas tank and around the bolts.  I wanted to make sure the gas didn't leak out.

 

Got the gas tank hooked up to the motorcycle, turned the ignition on, turned the switch on, heard the pump prime, pressed the start button and the engine fired right up.

 

All I need to do now is get the bike put back together.

 

Here's the sealant I used.

https://www.amazon.com/Seal-All-380112-Contact-Adhesive-Sealant/dp/B008VK0JS4/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=seal-all&qid=1565196380&s=gateway&sr=8-3

 

 

Grum - thanks for your help in diagnosing/troubleshooting the issue(s)

 

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