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FI blinks rapidly, engine won't start


Vitalii

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Hi!
I own a '02 honda VFR 800 and there is a strange problem. FI blinks all the time, with no stops, approximately twice as fast as it should report an error code. There are clicks heard from the ECM, like something tries to start but can't. (See video) The engine won't start and I have no idea how to deal with this. Could you help me?

 

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Hi Vitalii.

Sounds to me like your Engine Stop Relay is what's clicking. You may have a faulty relay or you need to check out its wiring.

The Engine Stop Relay is what supplies power to the ECM. You can isolate the relay by swapping it with either the Fuel Cut, Hi Beam or Low Beam Relay.  Confirm you have a solid 12v on the R/W wire at the Relay, and with Ignition switched To On that you have solid 12v at the Relay Coil on the Black wire. Also make sure the Ground R/O wire through the BAS (Bank Angle Sensor) is good.

 

Do you have the Service Manual? You can download it from the forum.

 

Also make sure your Battery is healthy AND the battery connections are clean and tight.

 

image.png

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I have experienced exactly your condition, although it would come and go.   Intermittently, the bike would start fine, or the  FI would flash, or simply no priming of the fuel pump.

 

I went through all of the drills, and solved my issues by changing all four Honda relays, although I believe only the Engine Stop and Fuel Cut relays will affect start / run.

 

I agree with all the advice above.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

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Thank you for the responses!

I disassembled the bike further, it's FuelCut that's clicking. I'll try swapping it with one of headlight relays, see if it starts up

 

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12 hours ago, Vitalii said:

Thank you for the responses!

I disassembled the bike further, it's FuelCut that's clicking. I'll try swapping it with one of headlight relays, see if it starts up

 

Vitalii.

Make sure your Engine Stop Relay is not clicking as well, I think it may be, simply remove the Fuel Cut Relay then switch On your Ignition, can you still hear a clicking sound, and does the FI light still blink? This is very important to finding your fault.

 

If the Engine Stop Relay is clicking? Then the most common cause apart from the Relay itself, is a dirty, high resistance, or faulty Kill Switch (Engine Stop Switch).

 

If the Engine Stop Relay is NOT clicking, with Ignition to ON. Do you have solid 12v at the BI/W wires at the Fuel Cut Relay?

 

Also while you are fault finding it might be best to unplug the lead to your Fuel Pump at the tank, as the clicking on and off might be giving your Fuel Pump a hard time.

 

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The Engine Stop Relay is Not clicking. If I disconnect the FCR, there are no sounds heard. FI stops blinking, it will flash when I push starter button.

I swapped the FCR with a headlight relay - did not help.

Bl/W wires have 10v, battery voltage and headlight relays have 12v though.

 

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If you follow the wiring for ignition, then it goes from ignition switch, main power relay, to ignition relay & fuel isolation relay then via clutch & side stand switches to tip over sensor to ecu. A break in any of those based on other sensor inputs will kill ignition. Clicking is always a relay.

 

I had a weird fault with my 5th Gen which was traced to a bad earth wires in the earth block buried in the main wiring harness. Always worth a look if nothing else fixes it. 

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Hi Mohawk,

I was thinking of leaks through some sensors, but how would I detect the faulty one?

Is it safe to remove a sensor, place a jumper instead and see if the voltage goes back to normal?

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At Ignition switch On the ECM will provide the controlling Ground to energise the Fuel Cut Relay for about 2 seconds. 

With Ignition ON You should be seeing 12v (battery voltage) on the BI/W wires at the FCR. So you might need to see why it's only 10v.

Place your voltmeter Black Lead on the battery Negative Terminal, then the Red probe onto the FCR BI/W wires, with Ignition on you must see 12v not 10v You need to have 12v at the ECM  B12 connector. Also check the ECM Grounds at B1, B2 and B14, these grounds are vital for the ECM to control the FCR. 

 

Check the state of your two main 30a Fuses. Look closely for heat stress on their connections, high resistance can develope causing voltage drop.

 

The upper section of the drawing I posted for you is where you need to follow through. IMPORTANT - If your ENGINE STOP RELAY is energised then that means your Kill Switch, Bank Angle Sensor and Ignition Switch are O.K.

 

Is your bikes wiring standard? Any added accessories or wiring changes?

 

 

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On 23 June 2019 at 6:03 PM, Vitalii said:

Hi Mohawk,

I was thinking of leaks through some sensors, but how would I detect the faulty one?

Is it safe to remove a sensor, place a jumper instead and see if the voltage goes back to normal?

Do Not replace a sensor with a jumper you could damage the ECM. Unplugging a sensor would be O.K for fault finding, don't think you are at that stage yet.

 

I've also noticed on your video your Tacho does not do a self test (needle full sweep) at switch on. So again make sure at the ECM with Ignition to on you have 12v at B12. AND make sure the GROUNDS on B1,B2 and B14 have continuity back to the battery Negative terminal. ECM B Connector is the Light Gray connector.

Refer to Page 5-84 of the Service Manual you can download from this site. 

 

Let's know how you go with these voltage and ground checks.

 

Post Edit - Sorry it's normal for your bike, that the Tacho does not self test.

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7 hours ago, Vitalii said:

The Engine Stop Relay is Not clicking. If I disconnect the FCR, there are no sounds heard. FI stops blinking, it will flash when I push starter button.

I swapped the FCR with a headlight relay - did not help.

Bl/W wires have 10v, battery voltage and headlight relays have 12v though.

 

I did the same thing, and also had no joy.

 

I believe now that two relays were getting flaky: the Fuel Cut Off relay, which is clicking, and the Engine Stop relay, which is upstream of the FCR.

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Relays are very sensitive to Grounding, a weak path-to-ground on the bike can cause relays to "chatter".  Worth checking and verifying good grounding for the bike's wiring harness.

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B1, B2, B14 have solid connection with battery ground, relay ground matches battery.

B12 is 10v when ECM is connected, and goes to 12 if I unplug it.

As for the main fuse, I could't find one. I have a manual in my hands, it mentions fuse box to the right near dashboard, but there are no 30 amp fuses inside... Where I can find it?

 

4 hours ago, jimmer said:

I believe now that two relays were getting flaky: the Fuel Cut Off relay, which is clicking, and the Engine Stop relay, which is upstream of the FCR.

Hmm.. I didn't try swapping the ESR.. Will try next time I'm in garage

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2 hours ago, Vitalii said:

As for the main fuse, I could't find one.

The main fuse is colocated with the starter relay, mounted under the seat just rearward from the battery. This diagram on p.1-34 of the service manual should help you find it.

 

While you're inspecting the starter relay ensure that all the other electrical connections are in good order.

 

Good luck.

VFR800_starter_relay.png

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YES - Definetly replace the ESR, as previously mentioned, that relay is the main power feed for ALL your EFI. Have a good look at its connections. You need to have a solid 12v at the R/W and BI/W wire of the ESR with Ignition to ON.

 

As Lorne mentioned above. Have a very good look for heat stress and poor connections for both the 30amp fuses.

 

You need to find where the 12v drops to 10v that you have been measuring. So check the state of the above fuses. If it all looks good then with your meter start at the main Fuses measuring the voltage 12v then move to the R/W wire to the Engine Stop Relay, keep following that line until you find where it drops to 10v.

 

Hope your voltage drop is caused by either of the above or you might be looking at a faulty ECM!

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On 6/23/2019 at 5:52 AM, Grum said:

 

 

I've also noticed on your video your Tacho does not do a self test (needle full sweep) at switch on.

 

His is '02.  

 

Mine is '04, Canadian Edition, and the tach has never self tested (bought by me with 5000kms)

 

Do any sixth gens self test?

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8 hours ago, jimmer said:

His is '02.  

 

Mine is '04, Canadian Edition, and the tach has never self tested (bought by me with 5000kms)

 

Do any sixth gens self test?

Interesting, my three 6gens U versions all did it.

Post edit - Now I'm not too sure, perhaps I'm just thinking of my current 8gen which does it. Will check out my mates 2008 6gen! Perhaps my 62 year old memory is getting the better of me!.......CONFIRMED 6gen Tacho does NOT test at Ignition On, sorry old age brain fade:wacko:

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8 hours ago, jimmer said:

His is '02.  

 

Mine is '04, Canadian Edition, and the tach has never self tested (bought by me with 5000kms)

 

Do any sixth gens self test?

Hi Jimmer.

Sorry m8 mea culpa! :wacko:  Had it confirmed from a mates 2008 6gen and no the Tacho does NOT test on the 6gens. It must be that my 5 year old 8gen which does the Tacho test has scrambled my old memory.

Cheers.

Grum:beer:

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I got her running!

Fuses were good, but connection on the starter relay was oxidized and a bit melted. I cleaned up that connection, measured FCR voltage - it was 12! Engine starts up again!

Thank you Grum, you were right, and thanks everybody for your help!

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15 hours ago, Vitalii said:

I got her running!

Fuses were good, but connection on the starter relay was oxidized and a bit melted. I cleaned up that connection, measured FCR voltage - it was 12! Engine starts up again!

Thank you Grum, you were right, and thanks everybody for your help!

Good news Vitalli. Glad you're on the road again, enjoy your ride. Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers:beer:

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