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Video "History of the VFR"


gig

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the one I noticed most was Ron Haslam pronounced Ron Halsam but he does have the nicest looking bike showing first on the video!!

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Lets see, mistakes.

 

Lets start with him placing the RS1000RW before the VF750 when the RS1000RW was a bored out VF750 (with gear driven cams).

 

Then we have an RC30 shown at the time he's talking about the '85 RVF750, then written  "also known as the RC30", no, no no. The RVF750 was an utterly different beast to the VFR750R. They look very similar but are not the same. The VFR750R is the road version of the RVF750 but the RC30 was the mass produced version of the one-off prototype specials.

 

There is missed from the linage the VF1000R (even shown in the bloody background when talking about the VFR750F!) which is Honda's first road bike with gear driven cams (and missing out on mentioning the (two) VF1000F's, the FWS1000, the RS850R/RS920/RS750R etc)

 

Next we have an NC30 VFR400 shown while talking about the NC21/NC24.

 

Next we have the VFR750F being classified as a sports tourer...not at the time it wasn't! It was a sports bike, not a "race rep" like the GSX-R of the day and arguably less sporty than the FZ750 as well but not a sports tourer either. Of course we look back now and its firmly in the sports tourer category but that is because things have moved on and the RC36 went that way. 

 

Where for that matter was the AMA championship wins for the RC24, not to mention racing the TT and the other racing pedigree?  

 

Then we have the dash comparison which shows an RC24 vs a RC36!

 

I'm sure there are equal errors with the later bikes but I don't know them quite so well. 

 

 

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The one big issue I saw were the U.S. sales numbers, just over 300 were sold in the US, a little less than 4,800 world wide, so not mass produced, all hand made by HRC.

 

but I did enjoy the video, good to see the VFRs!

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7 hours ago, SamW said:

The one big issue I saw were the U.S. sales numbers, just over 300 were sold in the US, a little less than 4,800 world wide, so not mass produced, all hand made by HRC.

 

4800 is mass produced! Sure they were hand *built* by HRC but they were made from production moulds etc not sandcast specials...like the RS750's or RVF750's 

 

In comparison Honda built EIGHT RS750's for '84.

 

File:Honda RS750R 1984.jpg

 

Not sure exactly how many but probably similar numbers for the the RVF750. Again, it is a prototype racer, just as special and as unique as a MotoGP bike is now. It looks (quite) a bit like the VFR750R (RC30) because that was a homage to it as well as a homolgation special for the "Superbike" championships to replace the VFR750RK (the racing version of the RC24). 

 

1280px-Honda_1985_rvf750_honda_collection_hall.JPG

 

And finally this is a VFR750RK, entirely missed from that "history" which was the race kitted RC24 intended for competing in TT F1 and AMA superbikes. The RC24 won the AMA superbike championship twice as well as runner up in the F1 and senior TT....although those were the very super special 6X versions which made another 10ps and had even more trick HRC goodies.

 

Image result for VFR750RK -site:pinterest.com

 

 

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Overall, the video was a pretty good effort.  He got most of it right!

 

But if you're doing a history of Honda V4s, or even VFRs, you really have to differentiate better between Honda production bikes and HRC race bikes.  The production bikes are easy: From the VFR750RH RC30 in 1987 to the VFR750FL RC36 in 1990, there were only five other 650-899cc Honda production models: NT650J-M (Hawk GT/Bros) RC31, VT800CJ (Shadow) RC32, NTV650J-L (Revere) RC33, PC800K-L/R-W (Pacific Coast 800) RC34 and VFR750PK-R/P2K-R (Police) RC35.  

 

HRC has manufactured all of Honda's works racing motorcycles since about 1982, but has also modified Honda's homologation models (e.g., VFR750R RC30) for various production-based racing series.  

 

The "VFR750K" is a case in point.  This was not a production model, so calling this RC24-based HRC special the "VFR750RK" is a bit of a nonsense.  There was already a VFR750RK RC30 in 1989.  Maybe the HRC racer should have been called the VFR750FKR or something?  

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

 

 

 

 

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On 1/16/2019 at 6:12 PM, JZH said:

The "VFR750K" is a case in point.  This was not a production model, so calling this RC24-based HRC special the "VFR750RK" is a bit of a nonsense.  There was already a VFR750RK RC30 in 1989.  Maybe the HRC racer should have been called the VFR750FKR or something?  

 

 

Er, VFR750K is something else again! 

 

The VFR750K (RC37) was the training bike version of the RC24. 

 

You're getting your production dates out though, it's the other way round. The RC24 based VFR750RK was first in '86 then the RC30 VFR750R(K) was in 1989. 

 

I do agree 100% though that it was an utterly stupid thing to call it seeing as 'K' would obviously be used as a year code in 3 years time! It seems to make sense (although I'm only making this up and don't know) that it stands for VFR750 Race Kit. But if that is the case then why did Honda not call it VFR750F-RK? Still, we all know that logic goes out of the window when the marketing team get involved...Just look to the SC45 for evidence there!

 

You say it's not a production model...and it was and wasn't. It was a HRC model. You could buy one...but you could also make one. 

 

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"Er" is right; I meant to write "VFR750RK".  The point is that whatever that bike was it wasn't a Honda production bike with its own particular model name or model number.  HRC made race kits for many bikes, but that doesn't make those bikes anything other than Honda production bikes with race kits fitted to them.

 

Are you sure it was an "HRC model"?  Does it have an "RC" model number?  Japanese magazines can call bikes whatever they want, but I don't see any evidence that Honda called that RC24 a "VFR750RK", so I would have to say that it wasn't omitted from the VFR's history at all.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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I've nothing to add to the discussion re: the video, but MCNews Australia just posted is a nice photo essay on the 1992 NR750. I won't try to argue that the NR really ought to be considered a VFR, but those who disagree have a genealogy which includes hamsters & elderberries.

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7 hours ago, JZH said:

"Are you sure it was an "HRC model"?  Does it have an "RC" model number?  Japanese magazines can call bikes whatever they want, but I don't see any evidence that Honda called that RC24 a "VFR750RK", so I would have to say that it wasn't omitted from the VFR's history at all.

 

I already posted evidence. That wasn't from a magazine. 

 

Seeing as you don't believe me, have some more. 

 

image.thumb.png.4900c51f7081e1a7c5f2104cd3ec0428.png

 

image.png.ddd90bf27fe02cdcdf0f12b14edf00cc.png

 

You have to peer closely at this one, it mentions it above the power/torque graph. 

image.png.597d0b56f7af078013b9e9071e6c355f.png

 

image.png.0b5b370bef837992eae702dc34bb5d7b.png

 

Parts book. 

 

image.png.ace99ce7415ecb1f78293de1e9a2212e.png

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On the first page of the '87 brochure, it says "This kit was designed for the VFR750F..." and "You are required to prepare some parts by yourself." That seems to indicate that these are kits for production models and not models themselves.

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Interesting.  It's not that I don't believe you, but the first image you posted looked like it came from a magazine, not Honda or HRC.  But, they (HRC) have not used that terminology since the early '90s (by the time of the '92 NC30 at least, HRC were not appending "RK" to the race kit parts lists and set-up manuals), and none of that literature tells us anything useful, other than that there may have been turn-key HRC race bikes based on the Honda production model RC24.  

 

332065749_HRCVFR400RNC30SS-SPSet-upManualandPartsListcover.jpg.1dd4805816255c44e0bbb89f8cd2f8a3.jpg

 

From this evidence you could also argue that the "VFR400RSS" and "VFR400RSP" should be included in the history of the VFR?  I've also heard of the "TT-F1" NC30s, so maybe those need a mention as well?  It's going to be a rather crowded video!

 

As I have said, in any "history" of the VFR you really need to differentiate between Honda production models and HRC race bikes (and kit bikes), otherwise it just gets confusing.  HRC made a lot of race bikes and kit parts over the years, and I suppose it is arguable that the "history" of the VFR could/should include all of them.  But not mixed in (jammed in, in some cases) with the production bikes.  That's my opinion.

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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I agree there... But you can't have it both ways! Either include the HRC/Race bikes or don't. 

 

The video as stands mentions some but not others. It mentions the race wins of the VFR/RVF750R... But not the VF750F or VFR750F. It mentions the RS1000RW but not its VF750F based engine or any of the other HRC prototype bikes... apart from the RVF750... which it confuses with the RC30. On a side note, the RC45 was another bike where the marketing department named it against the wishes of HRC (to avoid confusing it with the Prototype/HRC RVF750). It really should have been another VFR750R. 

 

If you concentrate just on road/production bikes the lack of mentioning the VF1000R becomes even more puzzling because that was their first production bike with gear driven cams.

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  • 2 weeks later...
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Those all look like ‘race kit’ brochures to me, sure HRC may have assembled a whole machine and sold it hence the different name.  This could have been to meet homologation needs or to support a factory racing effort.  The kit parts then made in bulk to support the sponsored teams, and as available could be ordered by average racers via the parts lists. These parts commonly (IME) weren’t on the model fiche, you needed the Parts List or Set Up Manual to ascertain the RK (RaceKit?) part number. Or you had to know someone in Honda USA’s racing programs. I worked for a Yamaha dealer in the 90’s and this was all the same for the FZR400’s, if I didn’t have it on a printed race kit list I had to call Tom Halverson at Yamaha USA’s Racing Department. 

 

Thats is my take on the whole RK designation, may or may not be accurate. I wasn’t a Honda guy until last year. 😀

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My intention wasn't to get into an argument over the name or how "production" the VFR750RK was...just that IMO the video either needed to include *all* the race bikes/HRC "prototypes" or not include any. The half and half (and some being wrong) is poor. 

 

The omission particularly of the VF1000R is IMO the worst. It was unsuccessful (both in sales and racing) but was the first road bike with gear driven cams. It is IMO more relevant to the VFR750F than the RS1000RW as the VF1000R was the attempt to put the "race technology" from the FSW1000 back into a road bike engine (and based off a bored/stroked VF750). The VFR750F was then a direct evolution of those engines. 

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