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sfdownhill

New 5th/6th/8th gen performance header now in production in USA

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4 hours ago, Mohawk said:

Recessing them from the header, so that the sensor tip is flush with the ID of the pipe, actually creates an eddy zone that should in theory make their reading more average, but they are best placed with just the triangular tip section protruding inside the ID of the pipe, being offset to one side they will not cause a full reflective pulse & should not hinder gas flow.  

 

I've been working on do-it-yourself motorcycle fuel injection projects for about 10 years now and the above post pretty much describes how I mount my Wideband O2 sensors.  I always use an "extended length" O2 sensor bung.  You can see in these build-up pictures how far the O2 sensor protrudes beyond the end of the bung (when you visualize how far it will protrude into the exhaust remember to include the wall-thickness of the exhaust header itself) .  This amount of protrusion (or even a little less) allows the sensor to work properly.

 

DSCF0278_zps8fy8xe1o.jpg

 

DSCF0290_zpsc4l1oedo.jpg

 

DSCF0325_zpspeepgw9p.jpg

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I'm very grateful for all the sage advice and constructive suggestions offered here, especially in the last day or so.

 

Mohawk, when you capitalized 'YES' in answer to me asking if I should cease and desist, it had me rolling around laughing - well said! Your reminder that today's O2 sensors do not require external heat from the exhaust, therefore are less sensitive to placement than past sensors was also highly valued.

 

HighsideNZ, good input on air filter choice, preparation, and not modifying or changing anything on the motorcycle between the baseline and tuning except the headers..

 

GreginDenver, you chimed in with exactly the info I was seeking at just the right time - how cool that you work in and around injection systems and motorcycles. Wait until you see our donor/fitment bike...it's in serious need of the full GiD [Greg in Denver] treatment. After the dyno dust settles, the fitment bike will get the best version of your rebuild I can muster.

 

Duc2V4 and I are in agreement with the fundamental objective everyone is voicing: exercise discipline in changing only the headers between the baseline run and the dyno tuning session because we are all seeking only accurate information on the changes the new header produces. Nothing else. Peripheral tweaking and tuning will only diminish the validity of our findings.

 

Because the dyno tune needs to be performed, it makes sense to optimize the configuration of the test bike prior to arriving at Attack Performance, then change absolutely nada, zero, nothing in this configuration except the headers between the baseline and the tune. Thorough preparation will allow the best tune and be best for the bike in the long run. If the bike is prepared for the baseline run with new spark plugs, recently calibrated fuel injectors, a fresh valve adjustment, starter valves synched, new coolant and thermostat, a new air filter, new oil/filter, , fresh fuel, and PCV, then, after the tuning session, it will be a complete package dialed in for the second half of its life.

 

 

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Jozef measured the Bosch wide band sensors he uses with the Attack dyno for tuning and came up with 27mm from the base/seat of the sensor’s threads to the sensing tip. This would be the same measurement as from the top of the bung to the sensor’s tip when installed. If anyone has a different measurement for the Bosch 4.9, please let me know.

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1 hour ago, sfdownhill said:

Jozef measured the Bosch wide band sensors he uses with the Attack dyno for tuning and came up with 27mm from the base/seat of the sensor’s threads to the sensing tip. This would be the same measurement as from the top of the bung to the sensor’s tip when installed. If anyone has a different measurement for the Bosch 4.9, please let me know.

 

27mm sounds like an accurate measurement of the sensor's tip-to-seat distance (1.063 inches),

 

The pictures I posted (above, in this thread) are of a Bosch 4.9 (5-wire, heated) O2 sensor being installed into an Innovate Motorsports Extended O2 Sensor Bung which has a 1 inch total length, and in one of those pictures you can see how far the tip of the O2 sensor protrudes beyond the bung. 

 

In the top picture the extended bung has already been heavily contoured to fit tightly against the exhaust's mid-pipe section, but the upper-right hand end of the bung is still very close to the original total length. 

 

Sorry that the best picture I have (the top pic of the 3 that I posted) is a slightly angled viewpoint of the assembly and that this picture was taken when I was already well into the process of contouring the end of the bung so that it would closely mate to the outside of the exhaust's mid-pipe, but at least you can see well enough to get a good comparison of the lengths of the bung and the sensor tip.  

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6 pages already.

 

Honestly this needs 2 threads. An official update/build thread, and the discussion thread. Otherwise I don't know if I want to bother sifting through multiple pages to try to find the updates. 

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10 minutes ago, thtanner said:

6 pages already.

 

Honestly this needs 2 threads. An official update/build thread, and the discussion thread. Otherwise I don't know if I want to bother sifting through multiple pages to try to find the updates. 

 

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2 hours ago, thtanner said:

6 pages already.

 

Honestly this needs 2 threads. An official update/build thread, and the discussion thread. Otherwise I don't know if I want to bother sifting through multiple pages to try to find the updates. 

Yeah probably,

For updates on the build though refer to the dates on the op, or skim thru looking for pics of exhausts....exhaust on m/c...

(not yet)...exhaust on m/c on dyno... (not yet)...😀... (not yet)

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12 hours ago, GreginDenver said:

 

27mm sounds like an accurate measurement of the sensor's tip-to-seat distance (1.063 inches),

 

The pictures I posted (above, in this thread) are of a Bosch 4.9 (5-wire, heated) O2 sensor being installed into an Innovate Motorsports Extended O2 Sensor Bung which has a 1 inch total length, and in one of those pictures you can see how far the tip of the O2 sensor protrudes beyond the bung. 

 

In the top picture the extended bung has already been heavily contoured to fit tightly against the exhaust's mid-pipe section, but the upper-right hand end of the bung is still very close to the original total length. 

 

Sorry that the best picture I have (the top pic of the 3 that I posted) is a slightly angled viewpoint of the assembly and that this picture was taken when I was already well into the process of contouring the end of the bung so that it would closely mate to the outside of the exhaust's mid-pipe, but at least you can see well enough to get a good comparison of the lengths of the bung and the sensor tip.  

 

Thanks Greg. I've ordered stainless and mild steel bungs with 25mm height [What can't you find on Amazon?], like the contoured bung you are using. I don't know welding, whether bungs have to be stainless to weld to stainless, and I forgot to ask Wade this question when I spoke to him, so I ordered bungs in both  materials to have both bases covered for the fitment test this Tuesday Jan 22. Wade didn't have any tall bungs on hand at his shop, and I try to keep things easy for him.

 

12 hours ago, thtanner said:

6 pages already.

 

Honestly this needs 2 threads. An official update/build thread, and the discussion thread. Otherwise I don't know if I want to bother sifting through multiple pages to try to find the updates. 

 

I hear you thtanner - sifting through posts for updates is tedious. People who are planning upgrades/updates around their new exhaust might find value in the thread having a linear progression. There probably won't be much until Tuesday night, after the fitment session.

 

Tuesday we'll be at Wade's shop [1] testing 3 different crush gaskets to see which works best with the new headers [2] swinging the new headers into place on a fitment 5th gen [praying the TBR they were modeled from were in good shape]

[3] checking the new header's collector exit location and angle on the fitment bike with a selection of OEM and aftermarket slipons [4] checking center stand installation/fitment and exploring possible 6th gen CSS location [5] making a midpipe to fit between the new headers and a TBR slipon. The TBR slipon canister is probably going to be used on dyno day [Sat Jan 26] because Wade isn't sure if he'll have a full system ready in time for testing.

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You can weld either bung to the stainless header, ss to ss would be preferred with ss filler rod. Could also weld the mild steel bung to the header using ss rod or silicon bronze brazing wire. 

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Re the crush washers I was just having a tidy up in the garage & one of the things I found was the sample crush washer I had pulled out of the exhaust port when I fitted the TBR. So it was a standard sized crush washer of the round section copper type I prefer. I measured it in it’s crushed state, the OD was 39.5-40mm, the ID was 30mm +/- 0.5mm.

 

 

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Thanks for input Seb and Mohawk

 

I have 10 of the 42mm crush gaskets from UK pictured below. Uncrushed it measures 41.67od 33.61id. Its leading edge can be wedged into the exhaust sleeve on the head, but will probably be deformed by the header before bottoming out in the sleeve:

1879061350_UK42mm.thumb.JPG.fc8ba40fb54876e9e4b2a5c0c62328a9.JPG

 

 

This is what the same gasket looks like after being chucked up in a lathe in an attempt to shave the od for a better fit.                     So score=1 sacrificial lamb gasket, 9 gaskets remaining for testing:

1296379432_UKlathed.thumb.JPG.d58c1a03b6249a8d1c9a87e7904656ed.JPG

 

 

I have not been able to locate the perfect round section copper 42mm crush gasket described elsewhere, but have acquired 10 each of two more gaskets to be tested. The one on the left is billed as 41mm, but before crushing is 40.3od 31.7id, so id is too small. The one on the right is listed as 42mm, and before crushing measures 41.7od 36.3id and can be wheedled into the outside edge of the exhaust sleeve, so has potential [kinda skinny, though].

260229019_42mm41mmgaskets.thumb.JPG.05d8e47d7c91be87bd147988a72bc0df.JPG

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Another thing to keep in mind is that after welding the bungs will need to have a tap run thru them to clean up the thread as they shrink and distort during welding.

Also, make sure you use an anti-seize on the threads as stainless to stainless will gawl and lock up, especially once there is heat involved.

Don't get the anti-seize on the sensor end.  Apply it to the threads on the sensor and not in to the bung where it would get pushed out when screwing in the sensor.

Phil

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