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5th gen bad mileage/rich running -- opinions on what to check


MooseMoose

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OK, throttlebody off, new vacuum lines on.

 

I took a bunch of pics before thinking I'd tear it apart, clean it up, then put it back together, but decided screw that noise. Too easy to make a mistake, so I just removed hoses one at a time, cut the correct length new hose, then replaced them. Didn't take long at all.

 

total length of vacuum line is about 8.5 feet. I had two 5' rolls and have about 18" left. I got two colors because I thought I'd ordered 5 meters, but ordered 5 feet because, you know, I'm not too smart. So I got the second roll in the color they would deliver in two days.

 

I ran out of light today, so I'll finish up tomorrow. But here are some reference photos of the throttlebody after the new vacuum plumbing. I took pics from a bunch of different angles so if something went wrong I could have a reference.  Also, since these aren't stock hoses, they don't have the numbers labeled, so I just added some heat shrink that I know takes sharpee pretty well and labeled them myself. I'm afraid the silicone itself isn't the best material for long lasting ink, but this should help int he future when doing starter valve sync or pulling/reattaching the airbox for any reason.

 

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OK, I got it all back together over the long weekend. Only had to reset the throttle body two or three times, which is a bummer because after the third time it gets easier to pop into place. I think the boots get suppler with exercise.  Don't ask me how I know this.

 

The result?

20181126_152813_1_1.gif

 

 

This is after clearing the codes then riding 20 miles or so, running errands, so it has been up to temp and back to zero a few times. Maybe 4 starts and stops. So not used to seeing no flashes I had to double and triple check that the jumper was in place and the bike was working.

 

Riding it shows a palpable change. I've carefully sync'd and that greatly reduced the rough throttle off/on transition, but now it is gone. Not lessened, gone. Completely. The rapidbike decel management was probably arguing with the default mode before as it worked, but no matter how I adjusted it it was always fussy. Now it is absolutely perfect.  It is smoother than my carbuerated bikes were, and my 91 was so smooth I literally never thought about such things. Low speed throttle control seems better at all RPMs, too. It is almost too easy to ride. We'll see long term about the mileage, but man there is a difference between default mode and what I've got now!

 

I also had a minor coolant leak. I could smell coolant, but it wasn't going down in level and I couldn't find a drip anywhere to save my life. Since I was under there I replaced o rings (again) and one of them got pinched the first time. My fault for sloppy workmanship. I'm guessing it was letting the tiniest leak out  at high temps, and it was aerosolized in the middle of that hot V, so I could smell the odor, but never find the leak. Anyway, I was running over 200 degrees in traffic after I'd burped and no coolant smell. So counting my blessings, there was a small extra good about flipping the throttle body over again.

 

Pain in the ass overall, but a hell of a lot cheaper than a $350 sensor and a major problem solved. Now I just need to wash the poor filthy girl and go ride a tank's worth to see!

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Dear Lord, I'm glad I have a 6th gen now that I've seen the amount of vacuum lines on the 5th. Congratulations on fixing the problem!

 

Did you change the vacuum/air lines for the starter valves as well? Or do you trust them to be in better shape than the smaller lines? I know it runs great now, but just to be sure and future proof?

 

Well, I need to do the exact same thing as you've done. I have already changed all the vacuum lines once, but I think I need to go over them again and this time change them into the same inner diameter as the original and not smaller... 🙂  I have the exact same symptoms as you did, without the blinking light. I've took the cheap route with the MAP sensor and measured it on its own with a vacuum pump and a separate 5V feed. It checks out great, so I know it's not the sensor but probably the lines.

 

Thank you for the tenacity and also the excellent guide with pictures!

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I did not change the lines to the starter valves. Those are in fine shape and still supple. Much easier to inspect, too, because they are larger.  I originally tried to order them from Partzilla, but partzilla didn't have ANY of the molded lines -- they list two of these as available, two as not available, but when I ordered NONE of them, small vacuum or the starter valve air were available.  So they sent me two screws and charged me $15 in shipping. Fucking partzilla, man, that's not the first time they screwed me and didn't care. Anyway, I didn't bother to re-source them for the moment. I'll eventually have to do something, of course. 

 

The vacuum lines were all pretty crispy. I had to cut them off the nipples, which all looked good. This silicone stuff bends the angles just fine without kinking or anything, so I'm good with not honda standard there. No idea what I'll do with the starter valve air lines when I'm forced to do them, but I'm sure there's appropriate hose that'll make those bends somewhere.

 

For the vacuum,  it's not really as bad as it all looks at first. The top level in the pics all go to the map sensor. The ones below -- 3 and 4 join and go to the fuel regulator, #2 goes to the one way valve that eventually controls the flapper, and goes to the vacuum chamber.   The first time you see it, and try to wrassle it back in, it's like shoving an angry octopus in a jar and making sure each tentacle comes out pointed the right way, but in the end it isn't quite as convoluted as it first seemed.

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Tip: https://www.do88.se/en/artiklar/silicone-hose-_-hoses/silicone-hose-black/elbows-2/index.html

 

They supply Koenigsegg so should be up to Honda standards (maybe...). 🙂   They also have red and blue silicone hoses, if you want to go all out with your theme...

 

Angry octopus!! Need to remember that next time I fiddle with my lines.

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1 hour ago, SweViffer said:

Tip: https://www.do88.se/en/artiklar/silicone-hose-_-hoses/silicone-hose-black/elbows-2/index.html

 

They supply Koenigsegg so should be up to Honda standards (maybe...). 🙂   They also have red and blue silicone hoses, if you want to go all out with your theme...

 

Angry octopus!! Need to remember that next time I fiddle with my lines.

 

Great find mate.

This is what is great about forums, someone always finds something.

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@MooseMoose I enjoyed reading through that. Angry octopus LOL 😂

 

I'm up for a fairly major refurb on my '99 later this year (although I'm also swaping in a lower km engine at the same time, hence "major" refurb.)

 

In short, I'll be bolting in a Y2K engine, with '99 throttle bodies, and doing the following:

 

1) All coolant hoses/o-rings/thermostat replaced. I already have this kit (AS3 silicon hoses/clamps, and new OEM thermostat/o-rings).

 

2) All throttle body hoses replaced in silicon - possibly with the exception of the two "elbowed" hoses. Between the '99 and Y2K throttle bodies I have, I suspect I'll be able to source two still-pliable hoses...

3) I've previously thrown MAP sensor codes, travelling from Canberra (640M elevation), to the coast (0M elevation), so may need to replace that at the same time.

 

4) While I'm there, I may as well do the FPR as well, which leads me to the question I have...Will a Blackbird FPR bolt into the VFR throttle body assembly? I ask not because the BB FPR supposedly operates at higher pressure, but because they are cheaper...

 

Happy to grab the VFR one, but if I can save a few bucks along the refurb path, I'm always happy to...

 

Edit: And can someone tell me why the VFR MAP sensor is listed at ~3 times the price of the Blackbird one? (Or if the Blackbird one will fit the VFR wiring harness 😉 )

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2 hours ago, EX-XX said:

4) While I'm there, I may as well do the FPR as well, which leads me to the question I have...Will a Blackbird FPR bolt into the VFR throttle body assembly? I ask not because the BB FPR supposedly operates at higher pressure, but because they are cheaper...

 

Happy to grab the VFR one, but if I can save a few bucks along the refurb path, I'm always happy to...

 

Edit: And can someone tell me why the VFR MAP sensor is listed at ~3 times the price of the Blackbird one? (Or if the Blackbird one will fit the VFR wiring harness 😉 )

 

No they do not.

Different connection set up.

CBRXX also have slightly higher fuel pressure.

No idea why it costs so much more, maybe VFR owners will fork out, BB owners won't.

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On 11/27/2018 at 12:40 PM, MooseMoose said:

So they sent me two screws and charged me $15 in shipping. Fucking partzilla, man, that's not the first time they screwed me and didn't care.

 

I hate partzilla as well.  When they do it, I just call Amex and do a chargeback.  This fits most companies' and states' definition of a bad faith transaction.

 

....Back to our scheduled programming

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1 hour ago, VFROZ said:

 

No they do not.

Different connection set up.

CBRXX also have slightly higher fuel pressure.

No idea why it costs so much more, maybe VFR owners will fork out, BB owners won't.

TBH, didn't think they would. Am kicking myself, as I threw out an old BB FPR, which I could have quickly and easily compared to the one from the Y2K VFR throttle body.

 

Even looking at the two different Partzilla diagrams (for BB and VFR), I figured it was a non-starter.

 

Shame...

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