smurfbud Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Hi Guys, Hoping someone on this vast knowledge database can help me out with an annoying problem on my standard 2009 non-abs. The bike no longer wants to rev up freely. Its like a plug is breaking down but not as severe and it is throughout the rev range. It doesn't deteriorate, its just there. I recently replaced all hoses and clips on the cooling system. Obviously this involved removing the throttle bodies. I also took the opportunity to T in a vacuum take-off for a scottoiler off the throttle body vacuum lines. Could it be that I haven't installed the throttle bodies correctly or have left a clip slightly loose and its drawing in air? Could it be something to do with the scottoiler vacuum pipe ? I know it could always still be a plug, but given these iridium plugs normally last for thousands of miles and mine has only done 2500 miles, I doubt it. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted August 2, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 2, 2018 Hi smurfbud. The question here is. Did this problem arise after your work with the TB's removed? If so, then make sure when re-installing the TB's that the insulator bands for each TB are correctly fitted and tight. Make sure you have no vacuum leaks, re-check every hose you disturbed. Won't be a Spark Plug issue. Make sure you've re-connected the electrical plug to IAT and MAP sensors. Assume your FI light not on? If you still have the variable air intake system (Flapper) make sure you've installed the vac hose to the diaphragm. Is your air filter clean? The easiest point to fit the T would have been the Variable Air Intake vac line on the RH side lower of the airbox. Hope you didn't use any of the MAP Sensor vac hoses for your T? If you have any doubt about the Oiler, disconnect it's vac line and block it, see if that has an effect. Good Luck. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 2, 2018 Author Share Posted August 2, 2018 58 minutes ago, Grum said: Hi Grum, Thanks for your detailed reply. Please see below answers which I think points towards throttle bodies not seated/tightened correctly. The question here is. Did this problem arise after your work with the TB's removed? Yes - it was fine beforehand as far as I remember. Make sure you've re-connected the electrical plug to IAT and MAP sensors. What are these please? I believe I reconnected all electrical leads and plugs correctly. Assume your FI light not on? No FI light or warning lights of any description. If you still have the variable air intake system (Flapper) make sure you've installed the vac hose to the diaphragm. Yes I still have teh flapper - all hoses were reconnected properly to anciliary bits. Is your air filter clean? Brand new K&N filter fitted. The easiest point to fit the T would have been the Variable Air Intake vac line on the RH side lower of the airbox. I am pretty sure I connected in at this point. Hope you didn't use any of the MAP Sensor vac hoses for your T? Where are these located? Are they the ones off the injectors? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted August 2, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 2, 2018 Just a wild shot here but I've heard bad thing about K&N air filters on VFRs. One of the fifth gens I bought came with a K&N. I replaced it with OEM right away. Good luck. And welcome to the asylum. We like to see a picture of your machine to assure us you are not a figment of our imaginations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 2, 2018 Author Share Posted August 2, 2018 1 hour ago, MaxSwell said: Welcome to the asylum. We like to see a picture of your machine to assure us you are not a figment of our imaginations. Here you go MaxSwell .... had her about a year and a half now but not really used her much ... only had 1550 miles on when I got her last Feb ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted August 2, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 2, 2018 12 minutes ago, smurfbud said: Here you go MaxSwell .... had her about a year and a half now but not really used her much ... only had 1550 miles on when I got her last Feb ... It's a beauty. Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted August 2, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 2, 2018 59 minutes ago, smurfbud said: Here you go MaxSwell .... had her about a year and a half now but not really used her much ... only had 1550 miles on when I got her last Feb ... Yummo Candy Red, can I have some PLEASE. Love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 3 hours ago, MaxSwell said: Just a wild shot here but I've heard bad thing about K&N air filters on VFRs. One of the fifth gens I bought came with a K&N. I replaced it with OEM right away. Good luck. And welcome to the asylum. We like to see a picture of your machine to assure us you are not a figment of our imaginations. KN OIL filters are the major problem, the K&N air filters are just a sham though. Stock air filters aren’t limiting anyone’s performance since the early 1990s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 3, 2018 Author Share Posted August 3, 2018 Thanks for all the replies guys .... over the weekend I will rip the throttle bodies back off and on and take a good look at all the vacuum hoses etc to make sure they are all nice n snug. I think I kept the original air filter (which was in good nick as it had only done 1500 miles) and will stick that back in too if I have. I will check the plugs whilst I am in there just for piece of mind, and will take the opportunity to check all the Samco hose circlips too ..... Hopefully these actions will cure the issue and I can get my bike back to normal operation. I will keep you posted ..... pix will be taken along the way .... Now where did I put those allen drivers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VARIABLE9 Posted August 3, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 3, 2018 Have a Newkie whilst wrenching. Should help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted August 3, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 3, 2018 5 hours ago, VARIABLE9 said: Have a Newkie whilst wrenching. Should help. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Hmm... After replacing the rubber inlets (throttle body to engine valves) the bike seems to like being in the 2-3000 RPM range now. Will test it out fully Monday or Tuesday when the replacement coolant hose arrives. Rubber replacements likely fixed unmetered air sneaking in. That would mean the cause of my distaste in the VFR could be cured. I hope 😿! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 OK so tank off, air-box and anciliary hoses etc also off (all appeared to be connected as they should be after the last strip-down) and a quick check on the plugs ensued. All 4 plug threads were coated in oil (quite a lot of oil actually) but the plug ends were dry as I would expect to see with no oil or significant carbon fouling (as per pix) ... now unless someone has oiled the threads before putting the plugs in (which I doubt as the oil is dirty) then I am at a loss as to how the oil has got there !!! This cannot be normal surely? There is no oil to be seen on the outside of rocker covers etc. I do not have any smoke on start-up or during running/riding of the bike - so no worn/passing valve seals ... nor is there a rich or oily smell during start-up or running. Oil must be getting into the combustion chamber and being forced up to the top of the plug threads under combustion compression ... this is my assumption, but no exhaust smoke?? Help please ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 On 8/2/2018 at 10:20 AM, Grum said: Hi smurfbud. The easiest point to fit the T would have been the Variable Air Intake vac line on the RH side lower of the airbox. Hope you didn't use any of the MAP Sensor vac hoses for your T? If you have any doubt about the Oiler, disconnect it's vac line and block it, see if that has an effect. Good Luck. Cheers. Tee in connection for scott oiler as per pic ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted August 7, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 7, 2018 4 hours ago, smurfbud said: Tee in connection for scott oiler as per pic ... Hi Bud. Looks like the ideal spot, just prior the the one way valve for the Vairable Intake system. As for you plugs it could be oil residue left when the plugs were replaced, bit of excessive oil used on the threads, possibly discoloured due to the heat being transferred up the plug body, or it might also be damaged o ring on the joint collars under the camshaft holder allowing small amount of oil into the plug well, otherwise the plugs look good. Did you confinm the gap was in spec? Have you confirmed there are no Vaccum leaks on the Scott Oiler hose and fittings? Have you also confirmed the Throttle Bodies are properly fitted with no leaks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 5 hours ago, smurfbud said: OK so tank off, air-box and anciliary hoses etc also off (all appeared to be connected as they should be after the last strip-down) and a quick check on the plugs ensued. All 4 plug threads were coated in oil (quite a lot of oil actually) but the plug ends were dry as I would expect to see with no oil or significant carbon fouling (as per pix) ... now unless someone has oiled the threads before putting the plugs in (which I doubt as the oil is dirty) then I am at a loss as to how the oil has got there !!! This cannot be normal surely? There is no oil to be seen on the outside of rocker covers etc. I do not have any smoke on start-up or during running/riding of the bike - so no worn/passing valve seals ... nor is there a rich or oily smell during start-up or running. Oil must be getting into the combustion chamber and being forced up to the top of the plug threads under combustion compression ... this is my assumption, but no exhaust smoke?? Help please ?? Oil can only come in from one place near there, the rubber gaskets between the valve cover and the top of the engine head. They are shaped like <> this. There are two on each head. They aren’t doing their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 So that would simply be rocker covers off, new gaskets in and rocker covers back on ? We are not talking cylinder head gasket?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 7 hours ago, Grum said: Hi Bud. Looks like the ideal spot, just prior the the one way valve for the Vairable Intake system. As for you plugs it could be oil residue left when the plugs were replaced, bit of excessive oil used on the threads, possibly discoloured due to the heat being transferred up the plug body, or it might also be damaged o ring on the joint collars under the camshaft holder allowing small amount of oil into the plug well, otherwise the plugs look good. Did you confinm the gap was in spec? Have you confirmed there are no Vaccum leaks on the Scott Oiler hose and fittings? Have you also confirmed the Throttle Bodies are properly fitted with no leaks? Havent got around to checking the scott oiler or throttle bodies as yet - the scott oiler is a single line from the Tee connection to the oiler unit so it shouldnt be causing a problem, but I will plug the tee to check before reconnecting it. The throttle bodies seemed to be seated in the rubbers ok, but I am not convinced that I had tightened the clamps fully as they seemed pretty easy to unscrew .... I have got some replacement rubbers to fit and try out when I get round to putting it all back together. Will keep you posted. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 5 hours ago, smurfbud said: So that would simply be rocker covers off, new gaskets in and rocker covers back on ? We are not talking cylinder head gasket?? I’ll see if I can find a photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 15 hours ago, smurfbud said: So that would simply be rocker covers off, new gaskets in and rocker covers back on ? We are not talking cylinder head gasket?? I’ll see if I can find a photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 11, 2018 Author Share Posted August 11, 2018 Thanks for that Urban. There is no oil down the spark plug bores so I therefore presume this circular gasket cannot be the cause. It has to be coming from within the combustion chamber. I have now come to the conclusion that the previous spark plug installer coated the plug threads in oil. I cannot come up with any other feasible explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gig Posted August 11, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 11, 2018 That oil is cooper grease, someone used as an anti seize when installing the plugs, I've used and looks the exact same when plugs are removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gig Posted August 11, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 11, 2018 i was concerned as well, I sent Mohawk a pic of the oil on my plugs, he said it looks like you used copper grease on the threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 That’s a relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 12, 2018 Author Share Posted August 12, 2018 That makes perfect sense ... never seen molten copper grease before ...... thanks for that Gig .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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