Jump to content

Tapered Head Bearing Help


weven

Recommended Posts

  • Member Contributer

I guess we, who have done this, must bow to your superior wisdom and manual finding ability.

 

Due to it's design a ball bearing steering head will support a much higher torque setting that a

tapered roller bearing. Do some research and you will find this is true. That is why the settings

for a tapered roller bearing steering stem will have a lower torque setting that for a comparable

roller bearing steering stem. The tolerances for incorrect settings is wider for ball roller bearings

than for tapered roller bearings. Just the nature of the beast.

 

This is my experience from 40 years in the can making industry.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Member Contributer

Here is a cut-and-paste for how to set axial roller ball bearings from GMN Bearing USA Ltd. " Lightly oil the precision nut or bolt thread. Thread locker is considered the same as ‘oil’ when applied to thread. Light is key; the thread should not be 100% covered with thread locker. Install by hand and tighten the nut 2-3 times past the goal torque with an accurate torque wrench. Then back the nut off and retighten to the goal torque."

 

Here is a link to a page from Machine Design that tells you how to set the preload for tapered roller bearings: https://www.machinedesign.com/mechanical-drives/setting-techniques-tapered-roller-bearings .

 

If you notice the techniques are very dissimilar. Roller bearings generally take a preload of a certain torque setting, tapered roller bearings are done more by feel. These are facts, not opinions. This is the way it's done industry wide.

 

Anyway I'm done with this so believe, disbelieve, or do what you want. But the bottom line is that if you set the preload on tapered roller bearings to what is recommended for roller bearings you'll have way too much preload on those tapered roller bearings. Like Edith Ann says "And that's the truth", you'll have to add the raspberry. 🙂

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
On 7/22/2018 at 5:14 PM, squirrelman said:

bearings too loose will usually CLICK when using front break hard and will cause the steering to wander side-to-side if too tight.

 

 

True...

I don't use torque wrench method to archive perfect torque rather I
raise the front wheel off the ground and tighten the steering head
bearings until the bars lock then I back off the nut until the bars
free wheel with a slight drag... with this method you find that sweat
spot and avoid over tightening and under tightening ball bearings or

even if you upgrade to taper roller bearings...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, FJ12Ryder said:

 

Anyway I'm done with this so believe, disbelieve, or do what you want. But the bottom line is that if you set the preload on tapered roller bearings to what is recommended for roller bearings you'll have way too much preload on those tapered roller bearings. Like Edith Ann says "And that's the truth", you'll have to add the raspberry. 🙂

 

FJR  I'll pay that well said..........😀

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

So I finished the tapered roller bearing installation.

 

First thing I did this morning was to add about another 1/8th of a turn to the bottom lock nut (I thought the steering was a little too loose the way I had it , it had no feel and 'carried on' when turned it).

 

Next I re torqued and tabbed the top lock nut. This made the feel of the steering a little firmer. When I turned the forks with my torque meter afterwards it required about 2Nm (thats about 1.5ftlb) to make the forks move. A tad light by the book but I thought OK for a start.

 

Then I had a real good look at the top plate, top lock nut and steering shaft... What I saw... The bottom of the top plate presses against the top surface of the upper lock nut. The top steering nut with 103Nm of torque on it clamps the top plate to the top lock nut.

 

So I slipped the fork tubes in and clamped the bottom plate on with about 15Nm, then slipped on the top plate and made sure that it was snug against the top lock nut and clamped it to the top fork tubes with about 10Nm. Then on with the top steering nut and eased it up 103Nm in a couple of bites. (There was just a sheen of grease on the thread before I put the nut on).

 

After this... the steering was tighter to turn... Of bloody course! But not unacceptably so 😁 It now takes about 4Nm (3ftlb) to turn the forks with the front end raised off the ground. This is near the max spec listed in the service manual and I expect it to loosen a bit while it settles in. We will see.

 

The fork tubes and handle bars are all back in their right places again and tightened up. I can't try it yet because I'm waiting on brake pads (I'm sure they were not worn out before I started this job ).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

My own experience is that you are better off with tapered bearings a little loose rather than just a little tight. The sweet, natural feeling steering relies very heavily on the steering bearing moving in a fluid way. If you over-tighten the steering you get a jerky, stiff and really unhappy feeling bike that will refuse to smoothly bank over and hold an easy arc. DAMHIK.

 

Personally to make small adjustments to the steering bearing nuts, I back off the top nut and the loosen the upper triple clamp, and then gently use a hammer and punch to drift the castellated locknuts around a little. Takes very little rotational movement to go from too stiff to just right to too loose. Then tighten the top nut and clamps again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Terry said:

Takes very little rotational movement to go from too stiff to just right to too loose. Then tighten the top nut and clamps again

T isn't that a fact.

 

I must say I am surprised how the smallest amount of adjustment makes such a big difference to steering feel with Taper Bearings.

 

I have had 3 goes at it to get that real sweet spot. 😍

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Oh boy. A simple question has turned into a real thread. 

Just to add my 2c, and speaking from experience of a person who only uses torque wrenches on engine internals and some car’s wheel nuts...  

i had great results installing tapered bearings by feel. Front off the ground, tighten the lower nut with wrench to apply enough pressure to almost jam the forks. Then back off and  re-tighten the lower nut BY HAND while turning the bars left and right and feeling the amount of resistance. 

Hand tight is usually all that’s required to get the right feel in the forks. Fit it on two bikes once each. Never had to adjust again. Still perfect 7 years on. 

 

PS. Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but it is possible to crack the aluminum neck it tightened too much using rollers. There’s much less give in them than in balls. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/25/2018 at 9:38 AM, ScottieDucati said:

Here’s yet another source: https://www.cyclepedia.com/manuals/online/cpp-all-balls/installation-guides/motorcycle-intallation-guides/steering-bearing-upgrade/

 

Note: 902ba59b695e95a010cbcbd1e215fed6.png&key=89c47d5c747669822ce6573dfdedb4093e82f798ee994b9135efb89169ad4015

 

Again for the third time, with sources... the thing here is to follow procedure in the manual. Tighten, rotate, re-tighten. Use OE torque specs.

 

Then, make sure you aren’t a numpty...

 

Critical point: FEEL FOR RESISTANCE. Adjust accordingly.

 

The problem with the folks here yammering on about their experience, against factory procedure and against manufacturer installation instructions is you may have the feel for the job, or may have been lucky. Someone coming here for advice does not have this experience and suggesting to not follow every available piece of documentation is disingenuous and potentially dangerous.

 

If you don’t have a source to back up your claims, they are worthless.

 

Yes you can over torque. That’s why the procedures say to check the sweep of the triples afterwards for any resistance and loosen if needed.

 

The fucking pedantic level of ridiculousness on this thread is staggering. I post manuals and bearing manufacturer supplied materials and some keyboard jockeys says they’re incorrect? Find a reputable source and link it.

 

Bottom line, someone trying to wing it off feel and not torque properly is going to have more issues than following the manual and documentation provided by the bearing manufacturer.

 

 

 

I wasn't sure if I wanted to reply to this, but the heck with it. You are wrong sir.

 

The reason a lot of people have differing opinions here, is because all are using non-oem spec replacement parts rendering the manual irrelevant for this procedure. The manual is catered to oem type replacement. If you torque tapered bearings to ball bearing spec in one of these aluminum frames, you CAN break the bearing lands. It has been documented here, and I have seen it in person after being asked to help fix the broken frame. 

 

Both your examples show steel frames, and all my manuals for bikes with steel frames and factory installed tapered rollers (VF500/750/1000 for example) call for a torque of 17-20lb-ft with tension check.  Basic math shows your suggestion of 33lbft being ok is incorrect. 

 

Lastly, going by feel IS ok if you know what you're doing. If you haven't done it before, or want to check your work, the CORRECT method for checking tapered roller steering bearing installation is to use a spring scale to verify a measurement of 2-3 pull-lbs. A simpler method is to adjust tension to the low end of the tapered bearing spec, then do a mechanical check by increasing the tension until the triple clamp barely falls to one side or the other when nudged off center, with nothing else attached and hindering clamp motion (cables/hoses, etc). How that setting translates to "road feel" when riding is where experience and the "do it by feel" comments originate. A variation of 3ft-lbs torque can vastly change the road feel of the bike and as such the bearing tension must be adjusted to suit individual bikes based on their chassis geometry. I'm sure you can imagine this would be difficult for any manufacturer to put in print without opening themselves to liabilities - hence the given range.

 

I hope that helps to clear the drama and prevents folks from potentially damaging their bikes. Bottom line is, follow procedure for setting tapered bearings in an aluminum frame (if you can find them). If not, err on the side of caution and start checking tension at 10ft-lbs, then work your way up to a measured, observed, or "felt" tension.

 

PS, please review your comments I highlighted in green above, and have a chuckle with me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

PPS - if you have a grinder/power tool with a cut off wheel, use that tool to slit the old race. Then use that old race to tap the new one in. Perfect fit and the slit allows the old race to be easily removed after seating the new one. This applies to the lower outer, upper outer, and stem inner races. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ll surely be calling AllBalls to feel them out. Their instructions are clear to use OE specs. Which admittedly, seems like it could be off a bit.

What I think it boils down to is a mix of service manual procedure (set, loosen, relighted) and checking your work at the end. If using OE torque could crack the head, I’d imagine the liability is just as much of an issue.

For the record I never suggested 33, my 5th gen manual uses 25. I reckon the happy place for tapered is below either of these... but you can start there and back it off using feel (moving triples through their sweep).

The only reason you need torque (at least initially) is to seat everything and take up the slack... the secondary torque is a starting point and completely fine (even as per the manual) to back off for final spec.

I think far more issues are encountered when folks don’t seat the races properly than over torquing them. You’re going to notice too much torque pretty easily.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 33lbft comes from the 1200 manual, with the Taper Bearing I would say =1/10th maybe 3.3lbft would be close to the mark. 🤨

 

Just saying, because my torque wrench don't go that low..😎

VFR1200.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great discussion people ...........😊

 

No doubt some have learned a lot about Taper Bearings as a replacement, and cleared up some misconceptions. 

 

Thanks all for participating.  Now get back to work!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/23/2018 at 12:08 AM, weven said:

 

 

With the taper rollers it appears to give more feel to the rider, then again could be imagination..........

 

Negative !  race bikes use ball bearings (probably ceramic) cuz there's less friction and riders have a better feeling from the contact patch ....... as stated by Miguel's #17 mechanic  to me at an AMA race in 1996.

 

And when i replaced my oem balls with tapered, years ago, i noticed duller feeling from the front tire immediately.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/23/2018 at 12:08 AM, weven said:

 

 

With the taper rollers it appears to give more feel to the rider, then again could be imagination..........

 

Negative !  race bikes use ball bearings (probably ceramic) cuz there's less friction and riders have a better feeling from the contact patch.  info from Miguel's #17's main mechanic at an AMA race in 1996. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, squirrelman said:

And when i replaced my oem balls with tapered, years ago, i noticed duller feeling from the front tire immediately.

 

 

You say duller feeling, I say added corner stability. There is no correct answer to cover everyone.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
2 hours ago, squirrelman said:

 

Negative !  race bikes use ball bearings (probably ceramic) cuz there's less friction and riders have a better feeling from the contact patch.  info from Miguel's #17's main mechanic at an AMA race in 1996. 

Until you add a steering damper to offset the lack of friction in the head bearings. Then, you’re right back to numbing the feeling. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Plus with a race bike who cares.... you’re gonna be servicing that area regularly and bearings are cheap. Tapered takes the hits from heavy bikes and bad roads and withstand infrequent adjustment (or being left at 3.3 lbs.-ft. ) better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
On 7/24/2018 at 3:09 PM, ScottieDucati said:

Wheel bearings are sealed and don’t have a torque specification for lateral loading at all.

 

Gotta love forums, when you can post exact manual references from Honda and the bearing supplier and get flak...

 

You find a way that works for you and best of luck to you. Whatever you did in the Army, should’ve had a manual and procedure. If that goes against factory instructions I’m not sure what to tell you.

 

If you’re here asking questions, you’ve done it wrong.

 

If your first ride helps set the races, you installed them incorrectly.

 

Follow the book. It works. Zero issues every time.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yeah yeah, so you have never worked on a 4x4 with taper wheel bearings !  Normal wheel bearing are Ball bearings they are ONLY suitable for light side loading as experienced in cars on roads. 4x4/6x6/8x8 military equipment used taper bearings that look just like tapered head race bearings for the same reason, designed to take side loading as experienced by off road vehicles hitting ruts & bumps & bikes absorbing bumps & hard braking !  YMMV 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

If you search online you will see people recommending both higher and lower torque for tapered stem bearings...  That's the Internet for ya!

 

FWIW (and the steel vs alloy frame issue is something to keep in mind), the Honda Common Service Manual has different torque settings for ball and roller stem bearings.

 

image.thumb.png.b9285a8060cc3cfa4387873f82a83d9a.png

 

image.thumb.png.8a1301eac46e8fca2f5d4068944824e0.png

 

image.thumb.png.156eac224cb5bb0ecc9d51be819470f2.png

 

image.thumb.png.b5c54e6b028e92934cfd2cfa96151cc2.png

 

Ciao,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Tapered definitely require less tension.

 

By being tapered, the lower bearing is being wedged into the race by the weight of the bike. This is what gives tapered bearings their known tendency to calm frontend shimmy. The heavier the bike, the more they’re wedged, as well. The top bearing just needs light tension to eliminate play.

 

The needles being cylindrical shaped spreads the load along their length. A ball concentrates all the load on a tiny contact point. This is what gives the needle superiority over a ball, for load capacity and durability. 

 

Ball bearings are less expensive than taper bearings, which is why motorcycle manufacturers use them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes DC and thanks to JZH for the manual reference.

 

When you think about it the 8lbft is not a lot when the  front wheel is off the ground.

 

Now all the weight is hanging on the top bearing and as you tighten adjusting nut one is effectively lifting wheel,tire, forks, brakes, fork tubes and lower triple clamp and after doing all that just putting an ever so slight preload on the bearing, trust me when your old and arguable slightly eccentric getting that right is not easy. Just need that nice feel...😋

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy.