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Tapered Head Bearing Help


weven

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Hi need help for Tapered Steering Head Bearings.

 

I have replaced the bearings and set the preload correctly.  Light to turn and no play, perfect!

Now I tighten down the center bolt for the top clamp and now the steering is way to tight.  WTF.....

I have always understood to tighten the center bolt first then the top triple clamp bolts. The center bolt tightens the top triple clamp down to the top of the lock nut, (which is locked with tabs) but for some reason is loading the bearing.

Does anyone know what I am doing wrong?

Maybe the usual method for ball bearings will not work.

I have tried a different method which worked but I am sure it is not correct.

This is what I did.  Tighten center bolt slightly to make sure top bridge is making contact with lock nut. (that's where it sits) Tighten top triple clamp bolts then tighten center bolt.

Any theories ?????????????

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There should be a retainer over the castellated nut which is supposed to keep this from happening.  

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The top nut should NOT apply pressure to the stem nuts. The stem is stepped to avoid that, if the lower stem adjustment & lock nut do NOT expose some thread to make the step then the top triple-T will sit on them if they are correctly adjusted this should NOT happen. The top Triple-T should rest on the step in the stem at the start of the lower stem thread.

 

Are you sure your inner bearing cups are fully seated ?  Or are your taper bearings to deep ?  You do have the fork clamps on the upper T loose right !?

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Yes yes I dont think the bottom the cup has fully seated, so dam hard to get too will check, if not...

I also have another theory, will get back. 🙃

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I thought I would let you know what I discovered, may help those who put in tapered head bearings in the future.

I have had the forks out twice and both times I had to carefully, gently tap a screw driver/wedge in to the gaps in the triple clamps, as there is know way in the world those things are coming out with out ever so slightly opening the clamps. It took two of us grabbing the fork tubes and twisting like hell to even get them to turn. Tight!

Now if people have not had experience with taper bearings they need very little preload, just a flies dick to much and the steering is really off, this is really important. 

So left top triple clamps loose, put a wedge in gap, remembering that the amount needed to allow the fork to overcome the stiction/grip is hardly noticeable. So do not beat the wedge in hard you will be really sorry.

So torque down center nut and the steering did not tighten up, so obviously the bearings where being loaded just enough trying to overcome the slight binding in the clamps.😀




 

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bearings too loose will usually CLICK when using front brake hard and will cause the steering to wander side-to-side if too tight.

 

new bearings may need readustment after the first 600 miles.

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Yes had that wander side-to-side thing happening until I got my head around the correct adjustment procedure.

 

With the taper rollers it appears to give more feel to the rider, then again could be imagination..........

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Here’s a tip. There’s a wrench for the steering stem nut in your OE tool kit. It will basically pop itself off with too much torque if you don’t have a torque wrench handy.

Spec per manual FWIW is 25 Nm. And you set it, turn the triples back and fourth 5 times and set it again. I reckon the Honda tool is designed to not exceed this torque.

“Finger tight” to the bearing adjustment nut (lower of two lock nuts) is NOT a spec of any kind, this is only for the UPPER lock nut but the manual also says to turn past finger tight up to 90 degrees rotation to align the tab.

FWIW I have tapered as well, followed manual procedure but used OE tool. Rides flawlessly.

 

AllBalls says to used factory torque specifications (see Step 9c in the link below), absolutely zero mention of not needing the same torque because of their design.

 

https://www.allballsracing.com/media/productshowcase/AllBallssteeringbearinginstallation.pdf

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PS if your triple clamp pinch bolts need to be jammed open, your triples are probably “twisted” or unevenly set in the clamps. That is not normal. Try loosening lower clamps and bouncing the bike, then tighten a bit and loosen top clamp and bounce. Apply a few hits of force laterally at each stage can help if the twist is visually observable. It was obvious my bike had a tip over at stand still and tweaked the triples. Not bent anything but since these clamps are a pressure fit any hit can cause something to slip and start to bind up. Some loosely goosey bouncing around and some careful persuasion with a rubber mallet got her nice and straight again.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ScottieDucati said:

 Try loosening lower clamps and bouncing the bike, then tighten a bit and loosen top clamp and bounce. Apply a few hits of force laterally at each stage can help if the twist is visually observable. It was obvious my bike had a tip over at stand still and tweaked the triples.

 

 

Just make sure you tighten top pinch bolts before you losen bottom bolts.

Agree with twisted or bent triples if you need to wedge.

Every bike I've done can easily drop forks once bolt is lose.

 

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Thanks SD good link.

1 hour ago, ScottieDucati said:

AllBalls says to used factory torque specifications (see Step 9c in the link below), absolutely zero mention of not needing the same torque because of their design.

I have to say the above surprises me.🤨

Well I have just ridden 100 ks (60m) over some crap roads and its too tight so not a problem I can adjust that easy.

That was 2nd ride.

First only lasted 3k activated ABS over rough section, that did the seating the races job 😋....so back to adjust the slack.

With the fork thing, I only have to wedge ever so small, hardly see it move, but if I do not do that those mothers just ain't coming out. 

 

And yes they are straight.😊

 

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When I used to set taper races in the Army, we used the following procedure.

Note nut position on old setup, i.e. how much shaft or thread is exposed before you loosen anything.

Remove old bearings & inner cups.

Compare assembled old bearing thickness with the new set, should be similar, but may be thicker or thinner. Note any difference.

Fit new bearing inner cups.

Use a long bolt & suitable wedge to seat the inner bearing cups, torque down hard. Then you know they are all the way home !

Assemble axle & taper race/outer cup, the nut should show similar amount of exposed shaft/thread, when combined with original & any difference. If close all OK, if larger difference, then something is NOT right.

Tighten nut until shaft binds on bearings, now loosen 1/16-1/8th turn & check free play/easy of turning, adjust as required. Head bearings do NOT generate heat so should be as tight as possible & still be free moving. Wheel bearings need a little slack.

 

YMMV

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Wheel bearings are sealed and don’t have a torque specification for lateral loading at all.

 

Gotta love forums, when you can post exact manual references from Honda and the bearing supplier and get flak...

 

You find a way that works for you and best of luck to you. Whatever you did in the Army, should’ve had a manual and procedure. If that goes against factory instructions I’m not sure what to tell you.

 

If you’re here asking questions, you’ve done it wrong.

 

If your first ride helps set the races, you installed them incorrectly.

 

Follow the book. It works. Zero issues every time.

 

 

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SD one has to be careful as my manual states to tighten to 33lb-ft then turn from side to side to seat bearing then re tighten. 

 

Tighten my new Tapered Bearing to that and you will never ever move them, maybe with a hammer...........

 

Now because I have not replaced like with like, but replaced with a superior Tapered Bearing the manual is telling me how to preload a cheap old ball race bearing which is a totally different beast.

 

Tapered bearing are better able to simultaneously cope with higher radial and axial loads.  Also the big advantage to tapered rollers is that they last much longer, thanks simply to the fact that the load is spread over much greater surface area.  Why would motorcycle manufactures use the cheap old balls, simple cost $$$$$$

 

 

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Did you miss the link I posted previously, from AllBalls themselves... regarding their tapered bearings, stating to torque to OE spec?

 

Here ya go again... https://www.allballsracing.com/media/productshowcase/AllBallssteeringbearinginstallation.pdf

 

 

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No never missed it, but my VFR came with ball bearings and I have replaced them with Taper bearings.

 

Unfortunately my manual only gives setup for ball bearings so OE directions are no use to me.

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And AllBalls says to use the same torque as a traditional bearing. The bearing being replaced in their instructions, is a traditional ball bearing. Same torque. Same procedure.

 

I don’t know how to be any more clear. You are incorrect in your understanding of bearings and their installation procedure. This is not my opinion. It is according to every referenced source the manufacturer of said tapered bearings provides.

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SD read this very carefully from Timken who make bearings .........These directions are for TAPER BEARINGS ONLY....

 

While continuing to rotate this rotor, re-torque the nut, this time to 10 foot pounds. Once again, loosen the adjusting nut, this time by only 1/6 to 1/4 turn. When step one is complete, place the bottle cap type stamping over the adjusting nut and properly install and secure the cotter pin to prevent the nut from backing off.

 

Now observe their directions, 10 foot pounds then loosen, very very important 10 ft lbs then loosen, so with the hundreds of tapered wheel bearings I have done my educated guess tells me we probably end with 3/4 lb ft of preload, and for a Taper bearing that sounds about right.

 

SD my manual is telling me 33 lb ft clearly is never ever going to work is it!! 

Now at risk of repeating myself. 

 

The directions in my manual have absolutely nothing what so ever to do with Taper bearings, and also the link you supplied does not mention, (that I can see) that their directions are to how replace ball with taper???

 

The heading is "Steering Bearings"

 

So to use those OEM  directions for a totally different bearing type when I sitting on something with only two wheels would be well beyond stupid.

 

In actually fact at 33 lb ft torque that is 29 lb ft more than the Manufacture's say, you wont get far because your handle bars would be locked.

 

SD dont take my word for it, if your car has tapered bearings tighten them to the VFR1200 33 lb ft OEM figure and you will see for yourself.

 

Please do not take this the wrong way, my only intention is for you to understand Taper bearings...

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What in the bloody hell?

 

We are discussing tapered steering head bearings. Not wheel bearings.

 

Bottle caps? Cotter pins?

 

I’m not talking about my car, either.

 

I honestly cannot make sense of your English....

 

 

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SD

8 minutes ago, ScottieDucati said:

We are discussing tapered steering head bearings. Not wheel bearings.

 

Man they are one and the same. Steering, Wheels, Gear boxs, Diffs. etc etc etc

 

Tapered bearings they just happen to be used in cars by the millions, and require less critical adjustment in a wheel than our steering head which need to be spot on..........

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I put tapered bearings in the steering head of my '99. I can tell you unequivocally that if you try to torque them to 

OE specs you will have a non-functioning steering head. ScottieDucati you have obviously never installed or maintained

tapered steering head bearings, or you would know that the torque to set them is much less than 33 lb.ft.

 

OTOH I've never tightened them and then loosened them to get the proper preload. That works with wheel bearings and

such, but not steering head bearings because you do want just a hint of preload, unlike wheel bearings.

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Weird how both Honda and AllBalls say different.

 

Must be total coincidence doing head bearings in two 5th gens in the past few months and following procedure and both are flawless. Did a Triumph over the winter as well, tapered bearings, same result.

 

With the front wheel in the air the bars turn without resistance, and the ride is fantastic.

 

I’ve been racing and maintaining my own chassis for 15+ years. Gotta be full of it I guess. Last time I had my chassis serviced by the local suspension shop, the bike was unrideable on corner entry. The culprit? Head bearing adjust nut was too loose and the front end clicked.

 

FWIW, spec for 5th gen is 25 ft lbs. and torquing takes place with the front end unloaded. And done in two stages.

 

 

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Here’s yet another source: https://www.cyclepedia.com/manuals/online/cpp-all-balls/installation-guides/motorcycle-intallation-guides/steering-bearing-upgrade/

 

Note: 902ba59b695e95a010cbcbd1e215fed6.png&key=89c47d5c747669822ce6573dfdedb4093e82f798ee994b9135efb89169ad4015

 

Again for the third time, with sources... the thing here is to follow procedure in the manual. Tighten, rotate, re-tighten. Use OE torque specs.

 

Then, make sure you aren’t a numpty...

 

Critical point: FEEL FOR RESISTANCE. Adjust accordingly.

 

The problem with the folks here yammering on about their experience, against factory procedure and against manufacturer installation instructions is you may have the feel for the job, or may have been lucky. Someone coming here for advice does not have this experience and suggesting to not follow every available piece of documentation is disingenuous and potentially dangerous.

 

If you don’t have a source to back up your claims, they are worthless.

 

Yes you can over torque. That’s why the procedures say to check the sweep of the triples afterwards for any resistance and loosen if needed.

 

The fucking pedantic level of ridiculousness on this thread is staggering. I post manuals and bearing manufacturer supplied materials and some keyboard jockeys says they’re incorrect? Find a reputable source and link it.

 

Bottom line, someone trying to wing it off feel and not torque properly is going to have more issues than following the manual and documentation provided by the bearing manufacturer.

 

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For what its worth, I just put

AllBalls tapered bearings in my gen5 yesterday (36000km on the originals). I haven't put the 103Nm on the top nut yet. I did tighten the lower lock nut up until I got some resistance in the steering then did a fair few lock to lock sweeps of the steering (it didn't lighten up much). After that I loosened the bottom nut a fraction until the steering was light and smooth then did up the lock nut as per the manual and tabbed it (I got a good 1/4 turn of torque on the lock nut before tabbing it).

 

I should be finishing up the steering mod tomorrow will let you know how it goes when I torque that top nut. I won't be surprised if the headset takes a few goes to get it to the point were its sweetest.

 

No way I have 25Nm on the bottom nut, likely less than 10. The manual says the resistance to turn with the front wheel raised should be 2.2 to 3.3 ftlb. 

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