exwifeschewtoy Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Ok I worked all day on my bike and have a couple of issues now. #1 when I got the sprockets on and the new chain riveted I went to put the clutch slave cylinder back on the bike and the threads on the top bolt to the immediate right of the slave cylinder seem to have stripped enough that the bolt won't tighten and is free. all the other bolts were fine and I was barely past finger tightening and I was using a 1/4" drive and snugging them when it happened. Do you think I can get by without this bolt or will issues arrise? #2 I checked my clutch and my discs were in spec and so I lightly sanded my metal plates with 300 grit and then reassembled my clutch taking note of the mark at the top of the clutches and lined up the marks when reinstalling....all the metal plates had the sharp side out. Put in new cluch springs. Made sure to tighten them a full turn each in criss-cross pattern until they were ready to torque to 9ftlb. Chose the stiffer of the two sets of springs that I had. Figured I could change them later if it was too hard to pull. Decided that the pull was nice fine on the barrett green 82Lb springs. I have the EBC springs as well, but wanted something stiffer as the stock springs seem to slip when getting starting fast. Problem is when I pull in the clutch and put it in first the bike is moving forward some. It also won't come out of 1st gear with it running. I flushed the clutch line real good and it didn't help. any help would be appreciated. thanks Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Terry Posted May 31, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted May 31, 2018 Are you sure you have the clutch slave cylinder fully fitted? Sounds to me like the clutch pushrod is not moving far enough to fully disengage the clutch, so that would be either air in the system or the clutch slave is sitting out off the cases. Given your comment about the bolt, that's where I'd start looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Terry said: Are you sure you have the clutch slave cylinder fully fitted? Sounds to me like the clutch pushrod is not moving far enough to fully disengage the clutch, so that would be either air in the system or the clutch slave is sitting out off the cases. Given your comment about the bolt, that's where I'd start looking. yes, I could smack myself for combining the two projects before I verified that the clutch was working good. It was raining too hard to even check it on the driveway. I just spent the last 45 minutes taking the clutch apart. soaking the plates. 1. The first plate has a solid black tip...... 2. Then between every clutch plate I put a steel plate with the smooth side in and the sharp side out. 3. I lined up the black line on the tip of the plates in the same groove as the first plates solid tip. 4. The end one has no color anywhere from what I can see but one looked a little greener than the rest so I put it in the channel for kicks. 5. I pushed on the pressure plate and held it in place while I put the first spring on. 6. started all the other springs with one turn each. 7. Criss cross patterned the tightening of the springs one full turn each until the end. 8. Torqued them all criss cross to 10lb/ft. The gear stayed in the clutch instead of coming off with the cover so no issues there. It did come off the first time but the manual showed the grooved side out so that is the way I put it on. lines up correctly with the other gears. Rolled the bike out on the driveway started it pulled in the clutch put it in 1st gear and it immediately shut off and lurched forward. Then I said a barage of swear words and rolled the bike back in the garage. When I took off the slave cylinder I left the speedosensor attached because it wasn't going to get in my way. Did the sprockets and chain.....no issues. Put in the bolts on the clutch slave cylinder and all went well except for the one that went in most of the way and then seemed to snap. I pulled the bolt out and it looks fine. I am going to wait until morning and then pull out another long bolt and compare the length. If they are the same then something is not right. I will read in the manual and try and figure out what I did wrong. I am sure I didn't line up something right. I may have to take pictures tomorrow and post them for you guys to tell me what to do and please feel free to call me an idiot. thanks Joel I did not drain the clutch line and remove the slave cylinder. I removed the entire thing as one unit, even left the speed sensor in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 31, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted May 31, 2018 Hi Joel. From memory there are different length bolts for the clutch slave cylinder housing, did you take note of the position of each bolt at removal? Try removing the bolts and find the longest one to go into the position you're having trouble with. The "snap" you say you heard concerns me that this might be the Speed Sensor coupling perhaps being forced onto a misaligned hex bolt head of your drive sprocket. You should have removed the speed sensor off the clutch slave housing so it could be properly aligned and fitted last. It is sad news you're now having clutch issues especially with a bike with only 7000miles, and as said, the chain and sprockets may be the big answer to your clunking issues. I understand your interest in fiddling with things, but mate, if it ain't broke Don't fix it, and if ya not totally confident in what you're fiddling with, the VFR will bite you! Having never the need to pull the clutch apart, I hope some of the more experienced VFR owners can help you here. Good Luck - More riding less fiddling! Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 31, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 hour ago, exwifeschewtoy said: Rolled the bike out on the driveway started it pulled in the clutch put it in 1st gear and it immediately shut off and lurched forward. Then I said a barage of swear words and rolled the bike back in the garage. Side Stand Down? Not trying to be smart, you wouldn't be the first to have done this! Speaking from personal experience!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 I 9 minutes ago, Grum said: Hi Joel. From memory there are different length bolts for the clutch slave cylinder housing, did you take note of the position of each bolt at removal? Try removing the bolts and find the longest one to go into the position you're having trouble with. The "snap" you say you heard concerns me that this might be the Speed Sensor coupling perhaps being forced onto a misaligned hex bolt head of your drive sprocket. You should have removed the speed sensor off the clutch housing so it could be properly aligned and fitted last. It is sad news you're now having clutch issues especially with a bike with only 7000miles, and as said, the chain and sprockets may be the big answer to your clunking issues. I understand your interest in fiddling with things, but mate, if it ain't broke Don't fix it, and if ya not totally confident in what you're fiddling with, the VFR will bite you! Having never the need to pull the clutch apart, I hope some of the more experienced VFR owners can help you here. Good Luck - More riding less fiddling! Cheers. I did pay attention to where each bolt went but will double check that in the morning. There was only 5 bolts. Three long, one medium and one short. It is not a nightmare at this point so I am not too worried. the bolt looks fine that I thought was snapped off. I didn't see a reason to disconnect the speed sensor as it was all able to be set aside as one unit. I will take it back apart in the morning and carefully do each step with the manual as a guide. I am pretty sure it is the clutch slave and not anything I did wrong in the clutch basket. thanks for the help Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 Just now, Grum said: Side Stand Down? Not trying to be smart, you wouldn't be the first to have done this! Speaking from personal experience!!!! Not sure what you mean but I think it is a joke, and yes I did put the side stand down. If anything I am getting good at doing a basic clutch. Twice in one day. EBC springs are in this time. thanks Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 I "assumed" that all the long bolts were exactly the same length. If one were a bit shorter than the others then that would explain the snap that I heard if it only went in a thread or two and didn't hold cause it was not long enough. I will know tomorrow. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 31, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted May 31, 2018 48 minutes ago, exwifeschewtoy said: I didn't see a reason to disconnect the speed sensor as it was all able to be set aside as one unit. Sure you're able to remove it as one unit BUT it's fair better with two. Having the Speed Sensor separated from the housing means you can carefully align (without force) the coupling to the drive bolt head then attach it's two short mounting bolts! Not doing it this way could potentially damage the sensor as well as stuffing your coupling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Grum said: Sure you're able to remove it as one unit BUT it's fair better with two. Having the Speed Sensor separated from the housing means you can carefully align without force the coupling to the drive bolt head then attach it's two short mounting bolts! Not doing it this way could potentially damage the sensor as well as stuffing your coupling! Ok, makes sense. I will disconnect it tomorrow when I take it all apart and slowly put it back together. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted May 31, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted May 31, 2018 2 hours ago, exwifeschewtoy said: Not sure what you mean but I think it is a joke, and yes I did put the side stand down. If anything I am getting good at doing a basic clutch. Twice in one day. EBC springs are in this time. thanks Joel Woooooooooow. YOU MEAN YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!!!!! Side Stand DOWN engine running, place In Gear = DEAD ENGINE INSTANTLY! Not a joke Joel I've fallen for the same trap many time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Grum said: WooooooooooW. YOU MEAN YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!!!!! Side Stand DOWN engine running, place In Gear = DEAD ENGINE INSTANTLY! ok, yes I know that is what happens. It is possible that I had the side stand down but I doubt it. It will be the first thing I check. I still have to dig into the slave cylinder and remove the speedo sensor to have a look see because of the bolt. thanks Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted May 31, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted May 31, 2018 Hey Joel. Sorry for your clutch troubles. The three shorter bolts on the clutch slave are a PITA. I got mine mixed up last year and paid the price (literally). I do this job every year - pull the sprocket cover off and clean out all the crud and goop that builds up over a season's worth of riding. I was simply not paying close enough attention upon re-assembly and got the bolts mixed up. What happens is that the shorter bolt in the wrong location will grab some threads in the cover, leading you to think all is well, that is until it's tightened. The short bolt can't grab enough threads to hold any force - either torque on the bolt or force from the clutch rod. In my case it pulled out the threads from the sprocket cover as I tightened it. I've done this job numerous times - I don't crank on them - just gently snug them down. The bolt was fine - but the sprocket cover was ruined. The correct longer bolt could be placed in the now damaged hole, but I don't want to trust my clutch activation to suspect threads. The other possibility is that you didn't tighten the bolt enough to pull out the threads as I did, but the "snap" was the threads pulling out under load as you pulled the clutch lever. In either case the bolts will tell you nothing. You'll need to remove the clutch slave from the cover and inspect the female threads - my guess is you'll notice that the 1st two to three threads in one of the holes are simply gone. Some people have run their clutch slave with just two bolts - but that puts the clutch slave and cover in a bind and eventually it's likely to fail - probably in some really inconvenient location. There are tons of used covers for sale on ebay for cheap - but most have rusted dowel pins, and who knows if someone has done the same with the threads on a used one - so I went for a new one. Honda does not supply the green gasket for the clutch slave, so save it from the old one if you do end up with a new one. If your dowel pins are also rusted, you'll need to order a couple of those, too. You can prevent the dowel pins from rusting to the cover with a bit of anti-seize on them. I'm not sure how detailed the service manual is about bolt placement, but on line parts fiches make it very obvious where they go. Even with just 2 bolts holding the slave, they should hold it tight enough to disengage the clutch if everything else is working properly. If the slave is flush to the cover, my guess is that there is still air in the system. For whatever reason, the clutch slave can be a pistol to bleed - just keep at it until you get complete disengagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted May 31, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted May 31, 2018 Unbolting, I use a bit of cardboard, draw the outline and stick the bolts in the card After changing fluids, pull lever put a rubber band on tight and leave overnight. Rear brake lever pushed down and ie the handle from a screwdriver "jammed" between lever and frame (carefully). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 9 hours ago, Cogswell said: Hey Joel. Sorry for your clutch troubles. The three shorter bolts on the clutch slave are a PITA. I got mine mixed up last year and paid the price (literally). I do this job every year - pull the sprocket cover off and clean out all the crud and goop that builds up over a season's worth of riding. I was simply not paying close enough attention upon re-assembly and got the bolts mixed up. What happens is that the shorter bolt in the wrong location will grab some threads in the cover, leading you to think all is well, that is until it's tightened. The short bolt can't grab enough threads to hold any force - either torque on the bolt or force from the clutch rod. In my case it pulled out the threads from the sprocket cover as I tightened it. I've done this job numerous times - I don't crank on them - just gently snug them down. The bolt was fine - but the sprocket cover was ruined. The correct longer bolt could be placed in the now damaged hole, but I don't want to trust my clutch activation to suspect threads. The other possibility is that you didn't tighten the bolt enough to pull out the threads as I did, but the "snap" was the threads pulling out under load as you pulled the clutch lever. In either case the bolts will tell you nothing. You'll need to remove the clutch slave from the cover and inspect the female threads - my guess is you'll notice that the 1st two to three threads in one of the holes are simply gone. Some people have run their clutch slave with just two bolts - but that puts the clutch slave and cover in a bind and eventually it's likely to fail - probably in some really inconvenient location. There are tons of used covers for sale on ebay for cheap - but most have rusted dowel pins, and who knows if someone has done the same with the threads on a used one - so I went for a new one. Honda does not supply the green gasket for the clutch slave, so save it from the old one if you do end up with a new one. If your dowel pins are also rusted, you'll need to order a couple of those, too. You can prevent the dowel pins from rusting to the cover with a bit of anti-seize on them. I'm not sure how detailed the service manual is about bolt placement, but on line parts fiches make it very obvious where they go. Even with just 2 bolts holding the slave, they should hold it tight enough to disengage the clutch if everything else is working properly. If the slave is flush to the cover, my guess is that there is still air in the system. For whatever reason, the clutch slave can be a pistol to bleed - just keep at it until you get complete disengagement. I lucked out I took it apart with plenty of light and cleaned everything in the sprocket area to near new. I took apart the speedo sensor as told. I then carefully inspected all. Yes, I too put the shorter screw in the longer nut hole. Didn't see that two were longer than the other long one. Won't make that mistake anytime soon. I did do a template for the clutch housing bolts but was lazy with this one. won't do that again either. I did get it all back together very nice and no issues. Was stupid simple. Had to rebleed the clutch as the slave cylinder opened up on me and leaked out the fluid. Took a long while to rebleed and even took the slave off again to see what was up. Put it back on a had much better resistance to the handle now. After 5 minutes clutch pull is real good. Went to test drive....with plastics off on both sides......I am learning, not gonna button stuff up too soon anymore. I am still in the same boat. Side stand up. Pulled in clutch, put into first, release clutch - bike died instantly. I don't know what to do at this point so I will wait until someone is willing to walk me through troubleshooting. Please read above and critique my clutch plate install and see if a red flag comes up. thanks Joel Really not worried as the bolt was the main thing to bother me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 8 hours ago, Dutchy said: Unbolting, I use a bit of cardboard, draw the outline and stick the bolts in the card After changing fluids, pull lever put a rubber band on tight and leave overnight. Rear brake lever pushed down and ie the handle from a screwdriver "jammed" between lever and frame (carefully). yes, I am going to make that my standard from now on when I remove screws....did it for the clutch housing removal and luckily still have the cardboard because I will be using it again to find out why my clutch won't disengage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 I did notice that when the slave cylinder was out that I couldn't push the clutch rod with my hand in to activate the clutch no matter how hard I tried. Shouldn't you be able to do that or is the spring tension too high for that? Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted May 31, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted May 31, 2018 Clutch spring tension will not allow you to push the clutch pushrod with your hand. Unless you're the orange one of The Fantastic Four. It's possible your clutch is still FUBAR, put the bike on the centerstand, put it in gear and see if you can spin the rear wheel with the clutch pulled. Or do it on the floor and see if you can roll the bike forward with it in gear and the clutch pulled in. It's possible that the clutch isn't working as it should and is stalling the engine when you put it in gear. If it were the clutch interlock switch, it would shut off as soon as you shifted into gear, it wouldn't wait until you released the clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 53 minutes ago, FJ12Ryder said: Clutch spring tension will not allow you to push the clutch pushrod with your hand. Unless you're the orange one of The Fantastic Four. It's possible your clutch is still FUBAR, put the bike on the centerstand, put it in gear and see if you can spin the rear wheel with the clutch pulled. Or do it on the floor and see if you can roll the bike forward with it in gear and the clutch pulled in. It's possible that the clutch isn't working as it should and is stalling the engine when you put it in gear. If it were the clutch interlock switch, it would shut off as soon as you shifted into gear, it wouldn't wait until you released the clutch. I found one issue...... I somehow put the inner most disc on the outside. To my knowledge there are three different plates. The one that is smaller so it can clear the friction spring and seat. The six identical ones - that I believe can be in any order and even backwards as there is no difference to the front or back that I can tell. I had been lining up this yellow stripe but doubt if it is necessary. Then the last one that is has slightly wider cork areas.....It is very subtle but it is a bit different than the six. This one goes on last. The steel plates all go in the same direction and I have put them sharp side out. I should have known something was up as the last plate was barely able to rest on the ledge because the first one wasn't clearing the friction spring and seat. Now I am not going to reinstall this until someone chimes in and says that my clutch would definitely have not worked with them reversed. They will soak until someone says "go for it". thanks Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 ok, that was it. I put them in the right order and put the 82lb green barrett springs in again and it works just fine. It slipped for just a half second when I first put it in gear but I am guessing it was just the plates stuck together. Rode it around and it shifts fine. Clunk is still there but then i didn't find anything wrong with the clutch to begin with so I didn't think that would change from just adding new springs. Time will tell if the Green springs are a pain in traffic. I have the ebc's here to change to if I don't like them. Joel update. I took it for a long test drive. All around town. Worked great. 15 miles later went on the highway and after about 4 miles noticed a burning rubber like smell. Didn't last more than a second or two. 4 miles later it started making a slight grinding sound after I exited the highway. Something is still not right. Not sure what to make of it except for the springs change it is still the same clutch. I guess it could be the new chain. I found lots of grease scattered around the swing arm, shock, etc. It could easily have landed on the exhaust. I found gobs of it in several spots. Not just a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted June 1, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted June 1, 2018 Joel, Glad the bolt positioning worked itself out. Regarding the smell of smoke, that's anyone's guess what it could be. Wiring, various compounds gassing off new parts, etc. The grinding sound may be the chain rubbing on the case-guard inside the sprocket cover. After I installed new chain and sprockets I noted a noise as you describe - on deceleration and mostly coming to a stop. I probably had the chain a bit loose, and being new it was probably a bit stiffer than a run-in chain. As it came around the front sprocket not under load (decelerating), it rode up a bit and contacted the case guard. When I removed the front sprocket cover I found some wear on the guard plate. A few miles on the new chain (maybe 50 +/-) and adjusting the chain resolved it. It's been fine for the past 7,000 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFRUNNER Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 Did you purchase the right size chain ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exwifeschewtoy Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 16 hours ago, Cogswell said: Joel, Glad the bolt positioning worked itself out. Regarding the smell of smoke, that's anyone's guess what it could be. Wiring, various compounds gassing off new parts, etc. The grinding sound may be the chain rubbing on the case-guard inside the sprocket cover. After I installed new chain and sprockets I noted a noise as you describe - on deceleration and mostly coming to a stop. I probably had the chain a bit loose, and being new it was probably a bit stiffer than a run-in chain. As it came around the front sprocket not under load (decelerating), it rode up a bit and contacted the case guard. When I removed the front sprocket cover I found some wear on the guard plate. A few miles on the new chain (maybe 50 +/-) and adjusting the chain resolved it. It's been fine for the past 7,000 miles. Nah, I'm thinking it was just in my head. I was driving in a higher gear and too slow and it was just the thing bucking on me. I rode about 40 miles today over a 2 hour period.....almost all of it town driving. The only noise that seems to be new is when I pull in the clutch the bike is dead silent....except for the engine sound. When I release the clutch I hear a faint noise, but that is the clutch engaging and normal, right? I am talking. Only noticeable if you are really listening for it. I had three issues before that are all resolved. 1. Clutch inner disc was swapped for outer disc......got mixed up when stacking them. Should have know that the thinner one has to go first cause it rides above the spring seat and friction disc. Once I put in the correct order.....bingo fixed. I love the 82lb springs too. I can launch hard from a light now. 2. The shorter of the long bolts was in the wrong spot and couldn't thread more than one set of threads and popped off when being tightened. I took it all apart with better lighting and cleaned everything to a nice shine, and then slowly put it all back together again. Totally resolved. I did opt for a 17t front sprocket and man that thing has made this bike so much better. I know it is the opposite of what most guys do but the gears are so short that it has cut down my shifting in almost half and it decreased the "buck" from letting off the throttle and decreased a bit of engine braking. I did not notice any decrease in acceleration. Fit with the 110 chain fine too....plenty of slack left over. 3. I did not use the Pro-motion chain tool correctly when I flared the tips of the master link....which is why I had so much trouble. I was not using the flaring tip. I went in a flared them correctly and now they are the exact same measurement as the stock tips per my caliper readings. I will redo the chain next week when the new master link comes that I ordered just for piece of mind. I also measured the width of the chain where my master link is and compared it to the other links and I am .1mm off....I can live with that just fine too. I appreciate your help and the others that responded. I still have never needed to take this bike in to have it worked on. I credit this to this site and you guys offering your experience. I value you guys more than the manual which I find weak a lot of time. thanks Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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