Jump to content

Gen 5 PCV/AT surging


Recommended Posts

Hi there hive mind.  I’ve read enough on the issue to know that I’m not alone but has anyone figured out the why and the solution to the PCV surging?  I’ve got Auto tune fitted and started with BFR Benny’s map though at this point it doesn’t resemble that anymore.  I just can’t shake the surging. To me it seemed to start when I updated the firmware. In contact with Dynojet but no help so far. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

What does it do without the AutoTune?  I hope Dynojet can figure it out for you (and the rest of us!)

 

Ciao,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the firmware is a problem Dynojet will most likely provide a prior version if it is not available on their web site. So just ask about reverting firmware to prior versions, and there would be no harm in trying several versions, assuming Dynojet agrees that it can be reverted. It is always best to check firmware procedures given the wrong steps can disable a device.

 

Have you tried to see if the bike is storing a fault code while the PC is connected? My suggestion is on the other thread here:

 

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/87325-much-to-be-gained-from-power-commander/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-1081759

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No stored codes.  Memorial day in the US so not going to get any help from them today.  If someone has a Gen 5 with a PCV running properly I would love to know what firmware version and map they are running.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Knight said:

If the firmware is a problem Dynojet will most likely provide a prior version if it is not available on their web site. So just ask about reverting firmware to prior versions, and there would be no harm in trying several versions, assuming Dynojet agrees that it can be reverted. It is always best to check firmware procedures given the wrong steps can disable a device.

 

Have you tried to see if the bike is storing a fault code while the PC is connected? My suggestion is on the other thread here:

 

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/87325-much-to-be-gained-from-power-commander/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-1081759

 

Have you got a valid link to your other thread a couple years ago?  Bad link or archived now.   http://vfrworld.com/forums/entry.php/422-Power-Commander-V-on-a-5th-generation-VFR800

 

Cheers 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry they must have purged it or changed the urls and I am not privy to the change. From memory I do not think that information would be helpful. I may have written there about converting maps from PCiii to PCV. The PCiii maps at Dynojet had a timing table attached, and even after converting a PCiii map to PCV map, the timing table remained in the PCV map version. That map would not load to the unit. That does not matter too much now as Dynojet has added a couple of PCV fifth gen maps to the site, avoiding the need to convert a PCiii map just to get a fifth gen map.

 

Squamish regarding your request for help, you need an example of a 2000-2001 setup as those of us with 98-99 vehicles do not have this surge problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Knight said:

Sorry they must have purged it or changed the urls and I am not privy to the change. From memory I do not think that information would be helpful. I may have written there about converting maps from PCiii to PCV. The PCiii maps at Dynojet had a timing table attached, and even after converting a PCiii map to PCV map, the timing table remained in the PCV map version. That map would not load to the unit. That does not matter too much now as Dynojet has added a couple of PCV fifth gen maps to the site, avoiding the need to convert a PCiii map just to get a fifth gen map.

 

Squamish regarding your request for help, you need an example of a 2000-2001 setup as those of us with 98-99 vehicles do not have this surge problem.

Yes I think you are correct, the connectors are different I think.  later versions are the same as a Gen 6.  I think the issue remains in the firmware.  as a whole the system appears to be working as intended.  The AT is trimming small numbers now.  I will call Dyno Jet tomorrow.  In the meantime if anyone has a PCV working well on a 2000 or 2001 do post up and let me know what program and more importantly the firmware version you are running.   Many thanks 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tried slightly earlier firmware version with no luck, but I think the first version was even older so that can't be entirely eliminated.  Regardless the earlier version would only be a band-aid until they updated the current version 

 

Tried a zero map + the latest firmware again and some kind of toggle switch eliminator patch they requested, pulled the AT CAN cable out as well as turned AT off in the software.  Still surges, particularly at smaller throttle openings.  

 

Very Frustrating but I have to say DJ tech support is being very good about it.  So far very helpful and I don't feel like I've been abandoned...yet. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/28/2018 at 6:44 AM, Knight said:

If the firmware is a problem Dynojet will most likely provide a prior version if it is not available on their web site. So just ask about reverting firmware to prior versions, and there would be no harm in trying several versions, assuming Dynojet agrees that it can be reverted. It is always best to check firmware procedures given the wrong steps can disable a device.

 

Have you tried to see if the bike is storing a fault code while the PC is connected? My suggestion is on the other thread here:

 

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/87325-much-to-be-gained-from-power-commander/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-1081759

 

Knight have you actually got a PCV working properly on your current bike?  Can you tell me what firmware version you have it running on? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Just to make sure, you have O2 sensor eliminators right?  I assume you are using one of the existing holes for your autotune sensor as well so, is it the front or rear and have you tried using the other location?  I've been running it for years, so I assume my F/W is not updated.  Also when do you notice the surging (steady state, accel, after decel)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/29/2018 at 6:40 PM, MadScientist said:

Just to make sure, you have O2 sensor eliminators right?  I assume you are using one of the existing holes for your autotune sensor as well so, is it the front or rear and have you tried using the other location?  I've been running it for years, so I assume my F/W is not updated.  Also when do you notice the surging (steady state, accel, after decel)?

I have O2 eliminators and no Fi light or codes. The O2 sensor bung is welded into the tailpipe just before the slip on. It was the only place I could put it. (‘98 Cat less exhaust) farther away from the action than I’d like but its working well as my AT tables are coming back in the low single digits as they should 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Squamishvfr said:

Knight have you actually got a PCV working properly on your current bike?  Can you tell me what firmware version you have it running on? 

 

 

As I type this it is night and I cannot access the bike right now. However I have the latest firmware version whatever it is. I have also had several versions of firmware. I bought the unit in 2014 so relative to our bike's age I have had all much never firmware versions but never had a problem with operation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Knight said:

 

As I type this it is night and I cannot access the bike right now. However I have the latest firmware version whatever it is. I have also had several versions of firmware. I bought the unit in 2014 so relative to our bike's age I have had all much never firmware versions but never had a problem with operation.

I thought I replied to this last night.  Don't worry about it.  If you are running the latest firmware it indicates this may be a hardware problem  I will send it back to DJ for assessment.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

So I sent the PCV back to Dyno-Jet.  The unit passed all bench tests.  They even did a dynamic test on their VFR training bike and said it worked fine.  They told me they updated the firmware in a way I could not and with updates I don't have access to, and they sent it back to me with a standard caution about ground connections.  I installed it with the ground wired directly to the battery and it still stuttered on acceleration.   They told me it could be a + power problem in the harness.  Having reached the limit of what I could do while actually riding the bike I booked it in with a dyno operator 1.5 hrs away.  Within 5 min of the first roll on he told me "I can't fix that".  We verified good voltage to the PCV and noted that when it stutters the bike thinks it is doing 23,000 or so rpm...We confirmed the issue still exists with a zero map.  Confirmed the bike runs fine without the PCV.  Spoke to Dyno-Jet again after a 45 min on hold and we sorted out two things; the first was that Dyno-Jet will sell me a new unit (mine way out of warranty) at a discount if I send them mine, "just to end the hate" as my Dyno guy said, and the other was that there is a back door phone code for their dyno operators to save them from long wait times.  Twenty years of work and the dyno guy was never told that, so we both got something good out of the day. 

 

So I sent them back my unit and awaiting the new one to arrive.  A couple of thoughts:  Dyno-Jet insists that the PCV for the V-tec and non V-tec bikes are the same save the map, and I know they are the factory but I am not so convinced.  I remember posts of other Gen 5 owners who could not get the system to work for them in the early days of the PCV.  Not sure what DJ changed but I think maybe a case of corporate lost knowledge and the new ones have different hardware that serves both models?  The test bike they tried it on was a 2009 and I believe them when they say it ran fine.  I suggested to my dyno guy that I pitch the whole works and buy some other product but he claims that the PCV is the best of the bunch.  I guess time will tell. 

 

I do have to mention that I have been twisting wrenches my whole life and kinda like a challenge so this one is interesting for sure but in all my years I don't recall ever getting this kind of customer service from a company for their product.  Kudos to them for sure.  Certainly if it all works out I will have gone from likely never buying their products for future motos to never buying anything but DJ's.  Wish me luck. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

Hmmm.  Doesn't sound like a great result to me.  I am one of the guys who couldn't get a PCV to work on my Y2k (it behaved exactly like you've described), so I'm wondering if anyone has ever got a Y2k or '01 to work with a PCV?  I don't want to depress you unnecessarily, but I do recall that DynoJet was also completely unable to get the PCIII-USB working on the ST1300.  Around 2003-04, they did sell one for that bike, tried to get it working for a while (using volunteers' bikes), but they eventually just gave up...

 

There is an alternative, however.  I've never tried it, but I believe CandyRedRC46 would be happy to tell you about it!  (Or he would if he'd been around since June 25, I see...)

 

Ciao,

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
1 hour ago, JZH said:

I am one of the guys who couldn't get a PCV to work on my Y2k

 

My '98 & '99 ran flawlessly - Canadian models so who knows what changes to the f.i. over the US market.

 

However, my '09 has a diabolically abrupt transition from zero-to-a-little throttle. I tried most of the common mods, but the feedback from PCV users have never been convincing.

 

Given that Honda's ECM cannot be reprogrammed I'd love it if one of Haltech's units could be fitted: https://www.haltech.com

The boys at Mighty Card Mods have used their kit on a few projects.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, JZH said:

Hmmm.  Doesn't sound like a great result to me.  I am one of the guys who couldn't get a PCV to work on my Y2k (it behaved exactly like you've described), so I'm wondering if anyone has ever got a Y2k or '01 to work with a PCV?  I don't want to depress you unnecessarily, but I do recall that DynoJet was also completely unable to get the PCIII-USB working on the ST1300.  Around 2003-04, they did sell one for that bike, tried to get it working for a while (using volunteers' bikes), but they eventually just gave up...

 

There is an alternative, however.  I've never tried it, but I believe CandyRedRC46 would be happy to tell you about it!  (Or he would if he'd been around since June 25, I see...)

 

Ciao,

 

 

Well yeah I see your point.  At this stage I need to press forward with a few assumptions: 

 

1- that there is nothing wrong with my bike and that the problem is with a several years old PCV that I was given as a gift.   There is still a very small chance that there is an issue that has no effect on the Honda ECU/system but will affect the PCV because of the way it taps in for power and signals.  This would be engineering level diagnostics on a dyno to sort out.  Even with my years of experience this would be beyond my reach or patients   Very small chance of a bike problem but I have to recognize that it's not zero.  There also could be an undetected difference between Honda's ECU's as well so if one had a bike that was running well they could be swapped to find out? 

 

2- My hope is that when they eliminated the PC3 for late Gen 5's they changed the hardware in the PCV to accommodate the Gen 5.  The guys on the phone tell me there is zero difference now between a Gen 5 and Gen 6 but they wouldn't know if that were always the case.  They deal with so many bikes every day how could they?  It may not even be in their internal communications because it is a irrelevant bit on minutia to them.  You'd have to find that one engineer who worked on the problem off in the corner.

 

If when they send me a latest version of the PC5 and it too stutters then I guess It's a done deal, I strip off the PCV and the AT and sell it to someone with a Gen 6 and try some other product.  If it works then we can assume that #2 above is true, I will report back to them on my case number and maybe they make a note of it for future cases.   

 

Additionally a friend is going to loan me his PCV off of his bike to try which would further reinforce #2 if it fails to work.  One way or another the trials will soon come to a close as I'm not going to chase after this much further.   

 

Stand by about two weeks as the PCV is on back order.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

I haven't given up, either.  Last year I pulled the PCV from my Y2k and brought it back with me to London, where I have an '01.  Unfortunately, I have had no time to experiment with it on the other bike, but that time will come. 

 

Maybe it's down to a difference in the PGM-FI units?  (My Y2k is a California-spec bike...but I take it yours is not!)  I might be able to try an earlier bike's ECU, but then I'd lose HISS (I'm already eliminating the O2 sensors).  Time to set an eBay search...

 

Ciao,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Installed a brand new PCV and a fail. Same problem. Different map same problem.  Tell tale indicator is while monitoring the map and running up the throttle the RPM readout flashes up in the 35-55,000 rpm range. Just a flash. 

 

So I’m done. I pulled the gear and will put it up for sale shortly. In BC Canada

 

Who else makes a good tuner for a Gen 5?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer

No problems with the PCIIIUSB.

You can chase up a second hand one, someone was selling one at VFRW last week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
3 hours ago, Squamishvfr said:

Installed a brand new PCV and a fail. Same problem. Different map same problem.  Tell tale indicator is while monitoring the map and running up the throttle the RPM readout flashes up in the 35-55,000 rpm range. Just a flash. 

 

So I’m done. I pulled the gear and will put it up for sale shortly. In BC Canada

 

Who else makes a good tuner for a Gen 5?  

DCD9C6C8-A2B6-4E7D-8A1A-98BFBA214E5C.MOV

 

Sorry to hear that.  Rapid Bike?

 

Ciao,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...

So haven't quite given up yet.  I pulled the throttle body and the injectors for cleaning and servicing at a fuel injection shop.  They told me two of them are fine but the other two are dumping fuel.  So if nothing else and despite the fact that the bike runs well, this is a verified issue that will be fixed.  They don't sell fuel injectors and new ones are not available from the Dealer ($300+) for several months.  Aftermarket Automotive are also a no go here in Canada.  I called the Auto dealers to confirm that the Honda CRV 97-2001 use the same injector with the same part number but they too have none for several weeks.  I then went to a car wreaker and bought a rail of four injectors for $75 and dropped those off at the fuel injection place asking for two of the best ones.  Waiting to hear back.  I will install the serviced injectors, Replace the T-stat anyway as well as a good time for silicone hoses and a flush.  Someone also mentioned going with a VTR reverse fan to blow out rather than in,  Hadn't heard of that one.  Will try the PCV again and then if it doesn't work I will sell them off.  Stand by a couple weeks for the results. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Member Contributer
38 minutes ago, Squamishvfr said:

Someone also mentioned going with a VTR reverse fan to blow out rather than in,  Hadn't heard of that one.  

I've been running the VTR fan for a number of years, I like it. --- But the switch comes with a bit of a caveat. Optimum for the VTR fan is really if you are moving (mbe 10mph +) and only stationary for a short time, like waiting for a light. There is that window if you are in long stop and go traffic, the stock fan is the better choice. --- Lots of guys will add a fan switch to run the fan earlier that the stock set point of 217 F degrees. If I lived farther south, I would be trying ideas, but here in Ohio, we dont clip 90 F in summer that often, so I dont really need to mess with it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, mello dude said:

I've been running the VTR fan for a number of years, I like it. --- But the switch comes with a bit of a caveat. Optimum for the VTR fan is really if you are moving (mbe 10mph +) and only stationary for a short time, like waiting for a light. There is that window if you are in long stop and go traffic, the stock fan is the better choice. --- Lots of guys will add a fan switch to run the fan earlier that the stock set point of 217 F degrees. If I lived farther south, I would be trying ideas, but here in Ohio, we dont clip 90 F in summer that often, so I dont really need to mess with it.  

Yes, looking closer at this I think I will skip the VTR fan blade as if I need the bike to cool anywhere, I need it to cool in traffic.  Even adding an override switch won't help that. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

So I installed the cleaned CRV injectors and the PCV, hooked it up to the laptop and it still thinks it is blipping  up to 50K rpm.  I took it on the road and confirmed that it still stutters on acceleration.  So I have some PCV and Autotune for sale in SW Canada.... 

Another change I have noticed recently is the dynojet website no longer lists a power commander at all for a '00/'01VFR so obvioulsly they have identified a problem.  Funny thing is there is nothing listed for an '02-'05 either.... 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy.