non start, no spark

[Kev800]

hi all im in need of some help, i bought my first vfr last saturday, today i went to go out on it with a mate and it wouldn't start. there is no spark all of the fuses are ok the fi light comes on and the fuel pump primes, the injectors are working also.

 

im not very good with bikes i can't seem to find how to test the pulse generator

any help would be appreciated

 

kev

[SportTouringCZ]

Hi, I don't know about the mechanical side of things but do you have your kill switch in correct position? ☺️

*EDIT* Ok, this is NOT an option if the fuel pump primes, sorry, missed that.

Edited May 11, 2018 by SportTouringCZ
*Cannot read

[Grum]

9 hours ago, Kev800 said:

hi all im in need of some help, i bought my first vfr last saturday, today i went to go out on it with a mate and it wouldn't start. there is no spark all of the fuses are ok the fi light comes on and the fuel pump primes, the injectors are working also.

 

im not very good with bikes i can't seem to find how to test the pulse generator

any help would be appreciated

 

kev

 

Hi Kev.

What year is your bike?

 

Assuming your Fuel Pump Primes and the Engine cranks over fine, that eliminates the Kill Switch and possibly the battery. Does the starter crank the bike over nicely?

 

Have you actually confirmed there is No spark, by removing a plug and checking?

If No Spark - confirm with Ignition On you have 12 volts at the Black/white wire and a good Ground connection on the Green wire of the Ignition Coils.

 

If you are suspecting a fault with the Ignition Pulse Generator, you should see a Code 19 flashing with your Fi Light.

Are you getting any flashing codes from your Fi light?

 

Do you have the Service Manual or Circuit Diagram of your bike? You can download the Service Manual from this Forum.

 

Good Luck

[Kev800]

hi Grum

 

thanks for the response, my bike is 2003 non abs. i have checked there is no spark, also my first post said i had working injectors i was wrong they do not work at all (i have checked them with a noid light) i have checked the IPG and the CPG and they both appear to be within spec.

 

im lost and about to give up

 

 

[Kev800]

On 5/11/2018 at 7:41 AM, SportTouringCZ said:

Hi, I don't know about the mechanical side of things but do you have your kill switch in correct position? ☺️

*EDIT* Ok, this is NOT an option if the fuel pump primes, sorry, missed that.

thanks for the thought but yes the kill switch is good!

[Grum]

6 hours ago, Kev800 said:

hi Grum

 

thanks for the response, my bike is 2003 non abs. i have checked there is no spark, also my first post said i had working injectors i was wrong they do not work at all (i have checked them with a noid light) i have checked the IPG and the CPG and they both appear to be within spec.

 

im lost and about to give up

 

 

Kev. Don't give up!

If you've been able to isolate the IPG and CPG and verify your injectors aren't working, then your clever enough to check a few more things.

Have you checked the voltage I mentioned above as this feeds BOTH injectors and ignition coils, and is your FI indicator flashing?

The fact you have both injectors and ignition coils not working may point to a common voltage missing or bad earth/ground. The first thing, ALWAYS, when fault finding is to Verify All relavent Power Supplies are O.K. That includes Battery, Fuses and earthing issues. Keep us informed with what you find.

Good Luck

[Cogswell]

I had a no start once on my 6th gen - was driving me nuts.  I didn't specifically check spark or fuel delivery - it would just crank but not start.  Upon closer inspection, the ground wire on the Power Commander was not secured.  If you have a PC that's an easy thing to check. 

[Kev800]

On 5/16/2018 at 12:23 AM, Grum said:

Kev. Don't give up!

If you've been able to isolate the IPG and CPG and verify your injectors aren't working, then your clever enough to check a few more things.

Have you checked the voltage I mentioned above as this feeds BOTH injectors and ignition coils, and is your FI indicator flashing?

The fact you have both injectors and ignition coils not working may point to a common voltage missing or bad earth/ground. The first thing, ALWAYS, when fault finding is to Verify All relavent Power Supplies are O.K. That includes Battery, Fuses and earthing issues. Keep us informed with what you find.

Good Luck

sorry for the slow response i did not get a notification... we have whittled it down to the ECU being faulty, all sensors are working as they should. 

 

[Grum]

4 hours ago, Kev800 said:

sorry for the slow response i did not get a notification... we have whittled it down to the ECU being faulty, all sensors are working as they should. 

 

Hi Kev. My only other suggestion is to back probe the ECM with your voltmeter making sure all the supply voltages and earths are all correct per the service manual. Do this before investing big bucks on a new ECM.

 

Keep us informed as to how you get on. But from what you've diagnosed and your FI light ON permanently you could well be looking down the barrel of a new ECM. 

Good luck.

[Auspanglish]

you can pull the EFI fault codes by shorting a connector and this will bring up a blinking pattern on the FI light. There's a how to here on VFRD and I think there's a video on YouTube and it's also explained in the service manual you can download off this forum. That might give you some valuable information.

Either way I bought a new second hand United States ECU for about a hundred and fifty bucks

[Grum]

Kev. You've mentioned nothing about your Battery. Are you sure its in a healthy state.??

There is a voltage threshold where the injectors will not operate.

[Kev800]

ive had the use of a pico scope over the last week or so. here are the results

 

first picture is the complete cam pulse with the ecu unplugged

 

second is the complete cam pulse with the ecu plugged in

 

and third is the crank pulse at 50 m/s 

 

 

[Kev800]

whilst searching the internet for info about this fault a friend found a very useful Honda document

VFR VTEC PGM-FI Diagram 2002.pdf

[Grum]

57 minutes ago, Kev800 said:

whilst searching the internet for info about this fault a friend found a very useful Honda document

VFR VTEC PGM-FI Diagram 2002.pdf

That's a handy diagram Kev. Think your scope traces confirm your crank and cam sensors are ok. 

Have you tried Auspanglish's suggestion of the diagnostic shorting link.? And are you still saying your Fi light is Always On and not flashing?

 

[Kev800]

There are no fault codes stored in the ecu at all. 

 

The first thing i checked were the flash codes. The fi light acts as it should do and the fuel pump primes 

[Grum]

30 minutes ago, Kev800 said:

There are no fault codes stored in the ecu at all. 

 

The first thing i checked were the flash codes. The fi light acts as it should do and the fuel pump primes 

Sorry Kev but in your opening post, you didn't state "The first thing I checked were the flash codes" and it's only now we're informed you have!

Only now your saying your Fi light acts as it should when your opening statement was the Fi light is ON.

You also stated "I'm not good with bikes and any help is appreciated" 

So I'm a bit confused! We are all here trying to help from remote distances, giving us feedback from questions we've asked is vital in trying to help you.

Good luck with the new ECM let's know how you go.

Cheers.

[Kev800]

i see your point i could have worded it a lot better. 

 

im not very good with bikes at all but im not afraid to get my hands dirty either. i have learnt a lot in the last few days from the research I've been doing on the internet, the last bike i owned i sold 8 years ago.

 

i do appreciate all of the responses I've had so far. the new ecu should be here on tuesday

 

what im struggling to get my head around most is the fact that everyone I've spoken with has never heard of an ecu failing, yet the chap that runs the company I've ordered the ecu from says they fall over for fun. i even created a poll on a uk facebook page dedicated to VFR's and im yet to see someone with a failed unit

[KevCarver]

Well, he's not going to say "there's a 99.9% chance this ecu I'm selling you won't solve anything"

[Kev800]

It would be nice if I could find someone that has had an ecu fail 

[Grum]

7 hours ago, Kev800 said:

It would be nice if I could find someone that has had an ecu fail 

 

Kev. Another thing that will cause your issue! Have a GOOD look at the Engine Management System Diagram you posted.

Have a Close look at Inputs A7 and A20, This is your Clutch/Ingear/Sidestand safety logic.

If you DONT have a Ground at A7 the ECM is saying you are not in Neutral = no start (depending where the Ground might be missing it may still satisfy the Starter Motor logic). No ground input at BOTH A7 and A20= Dead Engine.

Just try this - Raise your Side Stand, pull In the Clutch, try starting your bike.

 

And YES, given how complex an ECM is its amazing how reliable they are. So you need to be Very thorough in diagnosing Before you spend the bucks on a new one. ALSO - Does your bike have HISS? (Honda Ignition Security System) if so you will need to be supplied with two matched to the ECM transponder keys. Hopefully you don't have the HISS system!

 

Again - have you back probed the ECM to verify GROUNDS (back to the Negative terminal of you battery) and the 12 Supply??

Cheers.

[Kev800]

Morning

 

 

i will try all of this today. 

The bike does have hiss

[Grum]

23 minutes ago, Kev800 said:

Morning

 

 

i will try all of this today. 

The bike does have hiss

Ok so having HISS throws in some more issues. When you switch on your ignition, does the HISS light come On for approx 2 seconds then go out? Have you tried starting your bike with the spare key? Do you have any other devices on your key ring that could be confusing the HISS system, any other transponder keys on your key ring.?

[Kev800]

When I turn the ignition on the hiss light comes on and the pump primes the fi light also comes on then both lights go off. 

 

The key is on its own now and I have tried the spare key. 

[Kev800]

When I hit the starter button the fuel pump does not run

[Grum]

41 minutes ago, Kev800 said:

When I turn the ignition on the hiss light comes on and the pump primes the fi light also comes on then both lights go off. 

 

The key is on its own now and I have tried the spare key. 

Normal ops.

40 minutes ago, Kev800 said:

When I hit the starter button the fuel pump does not run

Not normal. Fuel Pump is supposed to operate during starter operation. Think that once the ECM sees Cam or Crank pulse inputs the Fuel Pump is activated.

 

Kev. Check the stuff I mentioned earlier regards gear/clutch/neutral logic for the ECM. Grounds etc. Failing all this you are probably looking at the ECM replacement - make sure you get your matched keys with it, you'll also need to have them cut to suit obviously.

Cheers.