Forks Loose?

[Lannyl81]

I feel a movement in the front at times when just barely rolling and I grab the front brake; feels like the forks move.  Over three years ago I had DMR redo the forks and I also replaced the stem bearings.  I have twice gone back and tightened the stem bearings a bit more but the movement feeling is still there, although not always able to duplicate it.

 

I had a friend ride it and he felt it as well.  With the VFR on center stand, he pushed down on the rear to raise the front wheel and I was able to move the forks a very tiny bit forward and backwards.  Have no idea what amount of movement is normal.

 

So oh great and powerful VFR'ers....help me understand....tell me what I might look for or do....riding season is here and the road is calling me.

 

Thanks

[sfdownhill]

Hey Lanny - did you replace your steering bearings with OEM balls or aftermarket roller bearings, such as All Balls? (Ironic that the ‘All Balls’ product uses rollers, not balls)

 

If you used OEM bearings, torquing them to the recommended resistance measured by a spring scale as detailed in the service manual should help stabilize the front end under braking.

 

That you’ve tightened the steering bearings twice, yet still have the problem is surprising. I’d recommend checking them again, this time with the front wheel removed, and the front end airborne via gentle support from below (do not jostle the bike about if you support it from the headers). Unloading the steering assembly like this, along with removing the bars and the possibly restricting cables attached to the bars, will give you a more accurate feel for tight or loose steering bearings.

 

In my limited experience, a little adjustment went a long way. I went the All Balls roller bearing route when replacing the steering bearings on my 5th gen. A fair just number of posts warned that the roller bearings need much less torque than OEM balls, so naturally I left them too loose. Bad behavior ensued in the form of the type of bar-shaking oscillation under hard braking that you describe. I removed the top triple clamp and tightened the bearing tension nut 1/4, but when reassembled, steering was too tight for comfortable operation. I went back in and loosened the nut 1/8 turn for a net change of 1/8 turn tightening - that fixed the problem for me. Since then, on both street and track, I’ve gone through a set of OEM pads and am now working on a set of Carbone Lorraine XBK5 pads (thanks Duc2V4 for recommending the Carbone Lorraine pads) with no further shudders.

[squirrelman]

First, Allballs is cheap, inferior Chinese junk.  would you use Harbor Freight wheel or head bearings ??

 

almost certainly your head bearings need replacement or adjustment.  if you finally over-tightened them, the bike will want to waNder left and right and you'll be constantly correcting.

[Lannyl81]

I did use Allballs, did not know they were Chinese junk, thought they were the ones to use.  Ok...now I know....need to order a set of OEMs.

 

I do not have any oscillations upon heavy breaking, just the feeling that something moves or shifts when I let off the front brakes.  Bike tracs straight, no wandering whatsoever.

Depending upon work schedule this week I will get the front wheel off and check-out the stem bearings.  Hopefully they are okay and allow me to ride until June, then I will just replace the Allballs with OEM.

 

Thanks

[marriedman]

I had AllBalls on my 5th gen and they were great. This is the first time I have heard disparaging comments about them. Granted, it has been quite a few years ago that I did the swap. I would still be surprised if their reputation has tanked that quickly.

[Duc2V4]

The issue most have with All Balls is the bearings they use, I originally bought a set of headset bearings for my 5 Gen but after receiving them I took measurements of them and then proceeded to search for known quality bearings and used them instead of the ones that came with the All Balls kit. The All Balls were donated to a different project.

 

I chose SKF and Nachi bearings along with OEM Honda seals. These are the part numbers for the bearings I installed. The Nachi is the upper bearing and the SKF the lower. Here's where I bought them  https://www.123bearing.com . Along with SKF and Nachi, they also carry Koyo, FAG, Timkin, NTN, just to name a few. Honda often uses NTN and Koyo but are usually cheaper here than from a Honda dealer. My recollection on having the two different brands was one of the bearings was not available when I got these, so I went with the two I have here.  I also did the same bearings for my 09.

 

The OEM seals were from Partzilla or local Honda shop, can't remember but can say that the pricing I got on a few other parts from the local Honda dealer (HB Honda), have been cheaper than Partzilla lately.

 

 

[KevCarver]

13 hours ago, squirrelman said:

First, Allballs is cheap, inferior Chinese junk.  would you use Harbor Freight wheel or head bearings ??

 

almost certainly your head bearings need replacement or adjustment.  if you finally over-tightened them, the bike will want to waNder left and right and you'll be constantly correcting.

Is there an alternative for tapered roller bearings? Mine have been in for many years with no issues like the OE ball bearings have over time. I have an extra VFR lower in my tool box and it says KML on it. No idea how long ago I bought them or if they have changed their supplier since.

 

I do prefer the OE for wheel bearings. I think Nachi were the last set I got from Honda.

[Mac Morgan]

A couple of years ago I saw a MotoGP bike apart in the pits and noticed it used ball bearings on the steering head. Last year I rebuilt my forks with new adjustable internals and springs from Dougherty motorsport. I was convinced my steering head bearings were shot (98 vfr) w/18k, but found the only problem to be hardened grease. I repacked everything, followed the service manual's procedure and was quite happy with the results. I think the only issue with the stock setup is lack of maintenance. 

[Terry]

2 hours ago, Mac Morgan said:

A couple of years ago I saw a MotoGP bike apart in the pits and noticed it used ball bearings on the steering head. Last year I rebuilt my forks with new adjustable internals and springs from Dougherty motorsport. I was convinced my steering head bearings were shot (98 vfr) w/18k, but found the only problem to be hardened grease. I repacked everything, followed the service manual's procedure and was quite happy with the results. I think the only issue with the stock setup is lack of maintenance. 

I don't disagree that steering heads never get any maintenance, I'm certainly guilty of ignoring mine until something felt amiss. At that point I've found that the lower head races are dented slightly and that leads to the notchy feel and lack of smooth transition from side to side. I can't say whether more frequent greasing would have prevented that but I suspect not. Longevity is one area where a tapered bearing is likely to be superior to a ball bearing, as the contact area of the rollers is much greater than that of the balls, so I expect it would be much harder to cause any denting.

 

I've consistently used AllBalls bearings in my last 4 bikes without any issues at all. They certainly need a fine touch when it comes to adjusting the tension, and I can speak from personal experience that too tight makes for an "interesting" ride experience...

[squirrelman]

7 hours ago, Mac Morgan said:

A couple of years ago I saw a MotoGP bike apart in the pits and noticed it used ball bearings on the steering head.

 

i talked with some Honda team mechanics at an AMA race when i saw that same thing.  They said the riders noticed better feel and tire feedback from the lighter touch and less friction with the balls.  of course they're replaced frequently.

 

tapered do last longer but slightly reduce contact patch feedback.

 

service manual sez steering head bearings need cleaning and re-greasing every 16,000 miles.  from my experience they usually need replacement by about 32,000 miles.....unless they've been greased and adjusted periodically.

 

Cheap bearings can be made anywhere, but quality bearings come from Japan, USA, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland ONLY !

[JZH]

You can get very high quality machined parts from China.  And you can get utter rubbish.  It's just hard to know in advance which ones you're going to get...  You would think that All Balls would only use the highest quality Chinese bearings in their kits, but do they?

 

Ciao,

[squirrelman]

4 hours ago, JZH said:

You can get very high quality machined parts from China.  And you can get utter rubbish.  It's just hard to know in advance which ones you're going to get...  You would think that All Balls would only use the highest quality Chinese junk in their kits, but do they?

 

Ciao,

 

you'd think the low price might suggest lower quality, because usually quality bits do cost a fair bit more.  maybe some saving on low labor costs in china, but what about quality control ?  how common are failures on Harbor Freight items ??

 

Would you install cheap HF wheel bearings based upon your experiences with Chinese quality ?

[mello dude]

If you have read squirrel for a few years in the forums, you already know that he makes the wide generalization - Made in China = bad, no matter if its true or not. 

Yes cheap stuff can come out of China, but that doesnt mean ALL stuff from China is bad. 

Squirrel has the same bias about Shindengen R/Rs -- yes the old ones have issues, though now we know the newer tech are way better.

 

Plenty of us on this forum have used the All Balls kits with success and no issues. - You cant equate HF to All balls. Different products, different manufacturers. 

[KevCarver]

46 minutes ago, mello dude said:

If you have read squirrel for a few years in the forums, you already know that he makes the wide generalization - Made in China = bad, no matter if its true or not. 

Yes cheap stuff can come out of China, but that doesnt mean ALL stuff from China is bad. 

Squirrel has the same bias about Shindengen R/Rs -- yes the old ones have issues, the we know the newer tech are way better.

 

Plenty of us on this forum have used the All Balls kits with success and no issues. - You cant equate HF to All balls. Different products, different manufacturers. 

 

Like I said, my last set from All Balls said KML on them. Google says they are 'Murican. But, I can't say that they are still using KML since mine were purchased several years ago.

Plenty of OE Honda parts come from China too.

[squirrelman]

37 minutes ago, KevCarver said:

 

Plenty of OE Honda parts come from China too.

 

i can't, i won't believe this is true without clear examples !

 

BTW: after about 5-6 uses my buddy's HF ultrasonic cleaner just failed !

[squirrelman]

1 hour ago, mello dude said:

 

 

Plenty of us on this forum have used the All Balls kits with success and no issues. - You cant equate HF to All balls. Different products, different manufacturers. 

 

Just wait 'till those parts fail at half the life of OEM pieces !

[KevCarver]

11 minutes ago, squirrelman said:

 

i can't, i won't believe this is true without clear examples !

 

BTW: after about 5-6 uses my buddy's HF ultrasonic cleaner just failed !

Are you joking?

[mello dude]

38 minutes ago, squirrelman said:

 

Just wait 'till those parts fail at half the life of OEM pieces !

You have no data to assert this, just BS bias...

[Dustin]

1 hour ago, squirrelman said:

 

Just wait 'till those parts fail at half the life of OEM pieces !

 

FWIW, my All Balls steering head bearings are still tight and smooth after 70,000 km. I'm not sure if the OEM bearings would last 140,000 km.

[VFROZ]

FWIW, The last time I bought All Balls, it came with Japanese Nachi bearings.

I don't think that they only use Chinese, just whatever bulk items are available at the time.

And not all Chinese stuff is rubish, some gear is very well built.

My rear sets for one, as well as my levers.

[Mohawk]

If you look up the bearing numbers & do a local search online, you will likely find a local bearing supplier, a quick call will get you prices. Most local places only use good brand bearings. They are usually significantly cheaper than online suppliers who mark them up for a good profit !  It's always been the way.

[Duc2V4]

2 hours ago, Mohawk said:

If you look up the bearing numbers & do a local search online, you will likely find a local bearing supplier, a quick call will get you prices. Most local places only use good brand bearings. They are usually significantly cheaper than online suppliers who mark them up for a good profit !  It's always been the way.

Yep, I posted that info earlier in the thread.

[sfdownhill]

What a lively and multi-faceted discussion.

 

Duc2V4, thanks for posting the part numbers of the SKF and Nachi bearings you used for the steering columns on both your VFRs.

Question - are the SKF/Nachis roller bearings or balls-in-cage bearings? In either case, do they come with races, if not, which races did you use? I am opting to replace the 8th gen lower triple I have on my 5th gen with a 6th gen lower triple, and might as well replace the All Balls steering bearings that I ran loose and rattling for 2000ish miles - who knows what damage I might have done?

 

FWIW - I used the 8th gen lower triple when I switched to CBR600F4i forks [from Daugherty Motorsports, of course] because it's all I had on hand when the 6th gen lower triple I got from ebay turned out to be bent. The fork tubes would barely slide through the loops in the bent 6th gen bottom triple clamp, and when they got to the top triple clamp, the fork tubes' position was off by more than half an inch. The geometry between 5th, 6th, and 8th gen triple clamps is all the same - 40mm offset. The steering stops on the 6th gen lower triple align the steering lock pin with the steering lock holes in the headstock of the 5th gen frame. The 8th gen lower triple's steering stops are a tiny bit different and do not allow the steering lock pin to fit into the locking holes.

[Duc2V4]

Bearings came with races.

[sfdownhill]

Thanks Duc2V4