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V4moto

Much to be Gained from Power Commander?

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Hey Folks,
Just acquired a Y2K VFR, my second since my previous '96. Wondering if there is much to be gained from fueling adjustments. The bike has a Staintune exhaust with the baffle installed and an OE air cleaner. No complaints about the amount of power or the delivery, just wondering if it could be better. I don't really care about top-end gains, only interested in low to mid range power. Seems to me like the bike doesn't pull very well below 4k and from off-idle through 2-3k RPM there's a hint of roughness.

From what I have read the PCIII USB seems to be the go to option although I am curious about the Rapid Bike Evo. Interested to know if anyone has the Evo installed. At almost twice the price it ain't cheap, but if it works well it may be worth it. Also, is there still a good collection of maps for the PCIII floating about? The Power Commander website comes up blank but I noticed there were a few maps here in the downloads section, although there didn't seem to be much associated information about the specifics of the tune.

Oh and of course, the bike:
P1010726-L.jpg

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On mine at least, the difference with the PCIIIUSB is very noticeable.

It still won't pull from under 3000rpm, I mostly never use under 5000rpm to be fair.

It might sound a bit like a twin, but it still is a high revving four cylinder, so it won't do very well in very low revs.

I recently went on a 3 day trip with mates, and since I've lost around 50kms to the tank using the current map I disabled it to get better milage.

As soon as I took off I thought WTF did I do that for?

It loses a lot of mid range which is where I live most of the time.

To give you an idea, the map dumps anywhere up to 35% more fuel under 5500rpm, and then it goes the other way on the top end reducing fuel by about 25%.

I have no flat spots, rough patches or hesitation, but that is also helped at cruising speeds by removing the O2 sensors.

I wouldn't go back.

Just my 2 bobs worth.

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Gorgeous bike!

 

Can these fuel mapping changes get rid of the "on/off" feel between 0% throttle and 1% throttle? I don't know how else to describe it.. as soon as I crack the throttle open at any speed in any gear, there is no "softness" of fuel delivery like there is with a carb'd bike.

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You definitely won't need a Power Commander for that bike. Yellow is the fastest colour and there's nothing you can do to improve it.

  • Haha 1

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Gorgeous bike!
 
Can these fuel mapping changes get rid of the "on/off" feel between 0% throttle and 1% throttle? I don't know how else to describe it.. as soon as I crack the throttle open at any speed in any gear, there is no "softness" of fuel delivery like there is with a carb'd bike.

In a word...YES. Also make sure there is no slack in the throttle cable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Yellow may be the fastest color, and this bike is as close to the perfect motorcycle as I've found. I test drove an 8th gen and still ended up with this bike, I think that pretty much says it all. Can't improve on perfection.

VFROZ, it's good to hear that you have found substantial midrange gains. Seems surprising to me that your fueling is that far off from stock though. What map are you using and how is your bike setup? Also, why the O2 sensor removal?

What are people's thoughts on replacing the stock air cleaner with a better flowing one such as the Pipercross? Will it have a positive effect or will it just further necessitate adjusting the fueling? I know at least with certain bikes that creating a freer flowing system sometimes has the effect of trading low end power for top end gains, something I would like to avoid.

The on/off throttle response is pretty good, better than I expected actually. Properly adjusted chain and throttle cables help, and throttle body synchronization is important. I know at least on my Aprilia, the throttle position sensor has an adjustment which effects on on/off throttle response. I suppose any number of things could lead to an issue with this.

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My 2001 came with a Staintune and a PCii. With the baffle in or out, it was significantly quicker through the lower RPMs , sounded fabulous (w/0 baffle painfully so to those behind), and reduced mpg by at least 10% (with a Givi touring screen which adds about 5%). It was also ~ 10 pounds lighter than OEM. The on/off throttle "twitchiness" was nowhere in sight. And it was seamless, arm-stretching acceleration, from 3,000 rpm to infinity. :wub:

 

Way too "young" for an old phart like me, attracted too much attention, and could make my ears hum much louder (I already have serious issue with tinnitus).  A lucky dude in Hawaii, of all places, bought the package.

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To be honest, you will never get rid of the on/off throttle response, you can get it better but not rid of it. 

Its the legacy of the early FI bikes. 

The O2 sensors are used when motor goes into constant throttle, like on a highway. 

The system goes into closed loop and the fuel is leaned out considerably. 

When you open the throttle to overtake or just because we can, the system changes to open loop and fuelling back to normal. 

This causes a slight hesitation that used to annoy the crap out of me, hence the removal of the O2 sensors. 

There are many maps available, best option is to put it on a dyno and get a custom map. 

But I've seen some custom maps and they don't differ much from the ones available. 

A different air filter won't change much, a different exhaust will, most after market mufflers are much the same. 

The biggest difference will come from wether you use the baffle or not. I don't. 

BTW, yellow is fast, but not as fast as red I'm sorry to say. Easily worth a couple of HP. 

 

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Another advantage if you ride in hot weather is a richer mixture will make the bike run cooler. Our V4s need all the help they can get in that dept. and I'm willing to take the hit on fuel economy to prevent cracked heads. DAMHIK.

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From my post over at the other VFR Forum. I know you aren't looking for top end, but this is my experience with adding a map on my PCII:

 

Quote

FWIW, I downloaded a map for my PCII from VFRD, it says it's for 93 Octane, but Jeebus it's made a big difference in my bike. Since all I have available is 91 Octane, that's what I run. Since the map, it has been lifting the front tire in 2nd gear every time I hit it hard. I found out on the front straight at Streets of Willow (a race track near me) it also lifts the front a little when I hit third gear. I didn't know it would do that until I got on the track. I just don't nail it that hard on city streets. And, my bike has over 81,400 miles. I can't wait to get a good suspension on it and some Q3+'s under it!!!

I'm on my desktop right now. I'll dig into my laptop and see which one it is. My 99 has a Delkevic header, Two Brother's Racing slip on and a K&N air filter.

 

 

I have noticed a big increase in mid range too. Accelerating to pass someone on the freeway is a simple matter of twisting the throttle.

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On 3/17/2018 at 8:35 AM, MBrane said:

Another advantage if you ride in hot weather is a richer mixture will make the bike run cooler. Our V4s need all the help they can get in that dept. and I'm willing to take the hit on fuel economy to prevent cracked heads. DAMHIK.

Yes, this. My bike was running crazy hot last summer. It too was running lean.

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Dynojet has discontinued the PCIII and they list the PCV (model 16-005) as their current offering for the 98-01 VFR. I have read some conflicting reports on the forums here about whether this model works properly on our bikes though. I called them up and asked about it and their response was that it worked fine on their test bike.

 

Is anyone here successfully using the PCV? or does anyone have an experience with it not working on their bike?

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That's very interesting...

 

I was probably one of those people you mention, and I can confirm that I tried a 16-005 (for the '09 VTEC) on my Y2k and it most definitely did not work.  I actually had both PCV and PC-III USB mounted at the same time and was able to swap the connectors at the side of the road (no side fairings on at the time) and it was like night and day.  

 

So, the discontinuance of the PCIII USB is good news, if DynoJet says the PCV will work on the 5th gens.  Maybe it was an installation issue in my case?  Or maybe the unit I have is just bad?  Or maybe I just need a firmware update?  Thanks for sharing that info.

 

Ciao,

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$340 is no deal.  The place I ordered from fuelmotousa.com has them for $299 (16-005 for 09 VFR800).  I paid less than that even and worked out a deal to buy both the PCV and autotune.  Can't hurt to send them an email.  I haven't had any issues, but wish I had the dual wide band kit for separate banks.  However, if I was going to do it again, I would try the rapidbike system or a stand-alone system with greater processing power.

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Mad Scientist,

What about the PCV do you think is lacking or why would you consider going with Rapid Bike instead? It's quite a price jump to get the Rapid Bike with the My Tuning Bike modue for wide band O2 support. You spoke of greater processing power, but what does that translate to?

 

Also, the guys at Dynotune told me that in their experience the dual wide band kit is unnecessary because the front and rear cylinder banks on our bikes run very much the same.

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The only time I really see a drawback in the PCV system is when I'm using autotune to adjust for changes.  I've noticed some hysteresis or "ringing" in the adjustment in coming to final trim values - overshoot high then low until gradually the final value is achieved.  A faster system should reduce some of this.  If you don't tinker often with the bike, then this is probably of minimal concern.

 

As far as a stand alone system - well I like to tinker.  I'd do it just to find out if I could reduce the abrupt throttle further and maybe gain some efficiency during cruising.  No guarantees and a steep learning curve have kept me away.

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10 hours ago, MadScientist said:

The only time I really see a drawback in the PCV system is when I'm using autotune to adjust for changes. 

 

MS, do you have a PCV self-tuned map for the 1998? If yes would you please share the map and your bike setup?

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Sorry, not going to be very useful to most people since I'm running a bosch 3 bar (43psi) fuel pressure regulator in a Radium Engineering housing.  I had some bad luck with leaky and expensive OEM regulators and binned the whole thing.

 

Other mods are a

Large volume airbox:

Velocity stacks:

 

Stock 98 header + micron low mount

 

Engine internals all stock

 

Right now the bike is totally disassembled.  I'm looking at the feasibility of installing the later 12 hole injectors, but looks like I will need to custom make some hard parts.  Also thinking of making the switch to rapidbike since I'm not sure that the non-harley PCV will support the dual wide band sensors.

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On 3/23/2018 at 4:01 PM, V4moto said:

The PCV is on sale right now for $340, pretty tempting. I noticed that Dynojet has 5th gen maps listed for the PCV on their website as well:
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/product-details.aspx?mdlyrid=16-005&make=19&model=204&make-n=Honda&model-n=VFR 800&year=2000&mk=19&mdl=204&yr=795

 

Thanks, I see.  They've now got stock maps, Erion slip-on maps and Erion full system maps.  Which reminded me that I actually got my yellow bike's Erion full system from Dynojet via eBay in around 2009.  So the bike that doesn't work with the PCV is probably using the very same exhaust system Dynojet used to develop those maps (assuming they didn't do the R&D again and simply modified their existing maps)...  :tongue:

 

Ciao,

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V4moto, I see from your profile you are based in Seattle & notice from that nice picture that your VFR like many has the running light bulb access hatch missing under the headlight !  I believe it rains a lot in Seattle, so to avoid later complications with your instrument cluster, either make a replacement hatch cover or just duct tape it over, to stop water getting on the circuit board on the back of the instruments.

 

A well setup PC can really smooth out th3 throttle action & gain some midrange hip, plus a couple up top.

 

have fun.

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1 hour ago, Mohawk said:

V4moto, I see from your profile you are based in Seattle & notice from that nice picture that your VFR like many has the running light bulb access hatch missing under the headlight !  I believe it rains a lot in Seattle, so to avoid later complications with your instrument cluster, either make a replacement hatch cover or just duct tape it over, to stop water getting on the circuit board on the back of the instruments.

 

A well setup PC can really smooth out th3 throttle action & gain some midrange hip, plus a couple up top.

 

have fun.

running light bulb access hatch, never knew ther was such a thing, as mine does not have, what does it look like, what do you access from here?

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Probably the rubber boot / dust cover

 

No, I think he's referring to the small plastic panel under the lights which I think normally houses the air temp sensor (it does on the 6th gen)

 

See pic close up 0bc3d92261ab26749b619256ef96c9b4.jpg

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6 hours ago, Mohawk said:

V4moto, I see from your profile you are based in Seattle & notice from that nice picture that your VFR like many has the running light bulb access hatch missing under the headlight !  I believe it rains a lot in Seattle, so to avoid later complications with your instrument cluster, either make a replacement hatch cover or just duct tape it over, to stop water getting on the circuit board on the back of the instruments.

Very good observation! It turns out however that there is a black plastic cover over the access hatch. It popped out quite easily but to my surprise there was nothing to access underneath! There is no running light on the USA fifth gen but there is a small cavity between the reflectors where a running light would fit. On my bike there is no passage into this space, the plastic was never cut out for the access way.

Also, in the picture right behind the access hatch you can see the optical sensor for the signal dynamics headlight modulator. When it gets dark, the optical sensor shuts off the modulation and returns the headlight to standard operation.

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