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landlover

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Hi, ran across this video on counter steering and wanted to post, it is an eye opener to say the least. Watch the whole video. PUSH right go right PUSH left go left. Took some time off need to go through some basics.

 

 

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I remember seeing that video many years ago?  I think it was probably more of a noob-type mistake than a failure to appreciate countersteering, though.  I mean, if you have to think about "pushing right" to turn right, you're probably already too late.  You have to do it without thinking.  And that only comes from practice.  I suppose you have to learn it once, but the rest is down to practice, I think.

 

Riding motorcycles is dangerous, and if you aren't very good at it, you increase your chances of getting killed or seriously injured quite a lot...

 

Ciao,

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Doesn't seem to be anything to do with counter steering.

 

More like grabbing a fist full of brake in a moment of panic and setting up a tank slapper. He was already counter steering through the previous bends, to ride the road.

 

Counter steering is a subconscious action for most motorcyclists, letting go of the brake when a f--k--g big truck is coming at you might require a more conscious action.

 

I hope he got out of it and got back on the horse.

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I noticed when I first started riding that I'd usually turn in the wrong direction to avoid an unexpected obstacle. Luckily, this was never the cause for any of my offs, but getting to the point that my reactions were correct just took more miles and practice.

Panic braking can go both ways. I've been down a few times from grabbing a handful while leaned over. I've also come unnecessarily close to hitting someone because I wasn't sure if there was any grip left in the front tire. As with everything on motorcycles, practice, practice, practice.

You can also ride so much that when you finally do hop into your truck again with a two-spoke steering wheel and hold a spoke in each hand, you might initiate a turn in the wrong direction when you get complacent.


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Every time that is watched my stomach hits the floor! Till the MSF BRC was taken had no idea about counter steering. When I first started out had to mentally think about it and recently took two years off and am glad video was watched I need to practice. The statistics speak for themselves there is a point in a motorcyclist life where they become complacent and statistics for an accident go up. First day on the bike said to my self find some time to practice emergency braking. Can see it, going down a unfamiliar road curve comes up going speed limit initiate turn but to much speed is there, sure I counter steered but it's not working so instead of pushing harder I steer into it and back to square one just like the video. It all happens in split seconds go right push right go left push left! Handlebars go left right left right gas no gas motorcyclist did not know what to do! There is no time to think, practice practice practice!

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But just remember, counter steer is only used to initiate the turn. The wheels then switch to th same side track following an oval path.

You will also find that most sports b8kes will out steer you, try easing your grip on the bars mid turn & you will often find the steers increases into the turn, when you thought you were on the edge. So a light touch is what you need.

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4 hours ago, Mohawk said:

But just remember, counter steer is only used to initiate the turn. The wheels then switch to th same side track following an oval path.

You will also find that most sports b8kes will out steer you, try easing your grip on the bars mid turn & you will often find the steers increases into the turn, when you thought you were on the edge. So a light touch is what you need.

Thanks Mohawk!

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there are 3 contact points between you and the bike, Bars/pegs/knees. If you use all 3 it will all flow better..... Press right bar/right peg/left knee = go right with less effort.....imho

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This video reminds me the importance of practicex3 as someone said before me. After long winter, guys, it does not matter how good you are, let's spend all make sure we practice basic bike operations in an empty parking lots. Feeling out the bike, doing basic drills that all basics that rider courses teach. 

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After watching this video several times, I would agree with others, this is not a good example of improper counter-steering.  What I see.....

 

- Capable bike

- Rider has protective gear (jacket, gloves, helmet)

- Rider has helmet mounted GoPro

- Rider is following his/her line in the lead up footage

- Speed is somewhat slow for the corners

 

Of course none of this tells us how much experience, how much training, or how much skill this rider has, but it may be an indicator he didn't start riding yesterday.  And regardless of how much experience, training, or skill we have, we can all make a mistake.

 

It appears to me the rider made the initial entry into the turn with a line that would have cleared him from impacting the truck, with one exception.  Perhaps the rider wasn't familiar with this road or had lost track of what section of the road he was on.  As he enters the turn he is leaned and turning right, then whether it was the truck obstacle or the road condition he reaches for front brake.  It doesn't appear he applied a bunch of front brake and we have no idea how much, if any, rear brake he applied (I doubt he applied any).  It is apparent the road had some uneven surface at that exact point which threw the suspension into havoc and would have added to the rider panic.  His speed going into the turn was below 50, maybe about 48 mph, but the rumble of the road screwed up his line.  The camera direction indicates he did have fixation as it never turns to the right as it would if he looked right (look right, go right), although his eyes could have been right, the camera/helmet direction would imply he fixated during the last few seconds.

 

I think the exception was the road surface in combination with the speed (although slow, maybe not slow enough for these bumps!), front braking not being as effective as normal because of the bumps elevating the front tire and reducing the braking effect, the suspension being thrown off and altering the line, all of which lead to the fixation.  As often happens when we crash it is a combination of factors.

 

One thing that really surprises about this video, as it attempts to educate riders on counter-steering, at the end all it does is add confusion to the skill.  We all know (should know) counter-steering needs to be instinctive.  At the end they offer part of what we do, steer right to go left left, as the explanation, but that is not what leads us to the skill.  Turning opposite the direction we want to go, for new riders, will only add to the confusion and especially when we approach a panic situation.  Regardless of the mechanics, the science, the explanation, students should be left with a drill they can effectively use without a thought process, rather a reaction, 'push left go left, push right go right'.  'right turn push right, left turn push left'.  Advanced skilled riders can add 'go right, push right/pull left' if they find it more effective for tighter, higher speed turns on the track or street where they are over working muscle groups, but that is relatively instinctive with experience.  If all one knows is 'push right, go right', 'push left, go left', when in a panic they don't need time to figure it out, so the high or slow speed swerve will work (usually) for avoiding obstacles.

 

As for counter-steering speed, I think counter-steering works at any speed that the bike is balanced in motion, here is a video demonstration :  Slow Speed Counter-Steering

 

Can we turn a bike without counter-steering?  It's not easy, but can be done at very slow speeds depending on the weight ratio between the rider and the bike.  But then, who would care, counter-steering works at all practical speeds including parking lot speeds.

 

Just my 2 cents!  I could be wrong!!

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Oops!  I violated my own rule.  I understand most members here reading this understand the principles of steering.  However, for the really new riders, I never like to discuss counter-steering to new riders with only the short statement 'push right, go right', 'push left, go left', without following that up with 'release push pressure when the turn is established'.  When in the turn we need little to no counter-steering (dependent on the road camber/surface, bike setup, conditions, and rider posture, etc.).  Most likely when entering a turn if we hold the counter-steering required to establish the turn (lean) we would simply continue to increase the lean angle until we crashed! 

 

And, if we discuss how to get into a turn and hold a turn, we should follow that with how to get out of the turn.  We recover from making a left turn by initiating a right turn (push right, go right), to the point the bike is upright and then relax the push pressure to neutral to retain going straight.  Even when we are going straight we are making small counter-steer adjustments to keep in our line, depending on the bike setup, the road camber/surface, the conditions, and rider posture.

 

I think self-preservation normally kicks in as we learn, but just wanted to take a shot at clarification.

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There is a factor I suffered over that lead to a lot of "anguish" for me that I've not seen covered in discussing mistakes. I throughly understood counter-steering. However my problem was the tendency for my outside hand wanting to be involved. Counter-steering right, my left hand was working against my right hand, resulting in a right - left stand-off that ended up sending me straight ahead. Then target fixation would take over. 

Once I realized this was happening, I developed a mantra: right turn - right hand - left hand release. Once that became subconscious, my results improved greatly. Subsequent Advanced Rider Courses at the local track has driven the proper behavior deep into what's left of my brain.

 

My bottom line: Never Stop Training. 

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8 minutes ago, MaxSwell said:

My bottom line: Never Stop Training. 

 

I like to think that the solution to a problem isn't the problem, rather the problem is the problem!  Once we have identified the problem, there usually is a rather simple solution we can apply to fix our problem.  Once you identified that your left was fighting your right (and, right fighting your left), I would have looked at your posture.  In your case this may not have been a contributor, but I see it a lot.

 

Not all, but many sport bike riders I ride with or see riding, even those with many years experience, support their upper body by leaning on the bars.  I don't see this so much with sport-touring or touring riders, although some do, because of the different posture those bikes provide.  It comes with a miss understanding how we sit and distribute our weight.  I don't see it with most of the riders who are experienced with track riding, because getting proficient at the track comes with relaxing the body and moving around on the bike a lot..

 

Without an understanding, most new riders will sit upright on the bike and reach out to grip the bars.  To reach the bars they have to lean forward.  Without using their back, hips, and lower body they support their upper torso unto their stretched out arms with the weight on their hands as they grip the bars.  In doing so, anything we do with the right as far as turning the handle bars like in steering, is going to create a conflict between our right and left side because of the weight they are supporting.

 

If our arms are stretched out while riding straight and we make a right turn, we will most likely lean forward to apply pressure on the right bar (counter-steer), but when we lean forward keeping our arms straight we are also applying more pressure on the left as well because it is providing partial torso support.  If we initiate more forward lean so our elbows have some bend and support our upper body with our feet, calves, legs, hips and lower back, we can eliminate the pressure on the bars.  Because our arms are now bent, we can easily straighten one to apply pressure for the turn and because the opposite side isn't supporting our upper body weight it is relaxed and allowed to fold up with more bend as we counter-steer.  When we have relaxed the pressure off the bars, it takes little pressure to steer and stabilize the bike and makes adjustments much easier and smoother as we take the corners.

 

We know we can counter-steer using just one finger to push the bar, it is that easy.  Placing our hand on the grips and wrapping the fingers places those fingers and hands in the position we may want to manipulate the clutch and front brake.  During normal operations, we should be able to lift our hands from both bars and our upper body should retain it's position.

 

When I see riders that are making multiple quick little panic turns while going through a corner, or over steering and making multiple corrections in lean angle, it probably has something to do with experience level, or a misunderstanding how the bike turns, but very often it is also a driver that is way to stiff and needs to relax on the controls and the ability to ride comfortably and relaxed comes by developing our riding muscles and posture.

 

BTW, I absolutely agree, Never Stop Training, Never Stop Improving

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5 minutes ago, EagleSix said:

 

I like to think that the solution to a problem isn't the problem, rather the problem is the problem!  Once we have identified the problem, there usually is a rather simple solution we can apply to fix our problem.  Once you identified that your left was fighting your right (and, right fighting your left), I would have looked at your posture.  In your case this may not have been a contributor, but I see it a lot.

 

Not all, but many sport bike riders I ride with or see riding, even those with many years experience, support their upper body by leaning on the bars.  I don't see this so much with sport-touring or touring riders, although some do, because of the different posture those bikes provide.  It comes with a miss understanding how we sit and distribute our weight.  I don't see it with most of the riders who are experienced with track riding, because getting proficient at the track comes with relaxing the body and moving around on the bike a lot..

 

Without an understanding, most new riders will sit upright on the bike and reach out to grip the bars.  To reach the bars they have to lean forward.  Without using their back, hips, and lower body they support their upper torso unto their stretched out arms with the weight on their hands as they grip the bars.  In doing so, anything we do with the right as far as turning the handle bars like in steering, is going to create a conflict between our right and left side because of the weight they are supporting.

 

If our arms are stretched out while riding straight and we make a right turn, we will most likely lean forward to apply pressure on the right bar (counter-steer), but when we lean forward keeping our arms straight we are also applying more pressure on the left as well because it is providing partial torso support.  If we initiate more forward lean so our elbows have some bend and support our upper body with our feet, calves, legs, hips and lower back, we can eliminate the pressure on the bars.  Because our arms are now bent, we can easily straighten one to apply pressure for the turn and because the opposite side isn't supporting our upper body weight it is relaxed and allowed to fold up with more bend as we counter-steer.  When we have relaxed the pressure off the bars, it takes little pressure to steer and stabilize the bike and makes adjustments much easier and smoother as we take the corners.

 

We know we can counter-steer using just one finger to push the bar, it is that easy.  Placing our hand on the grips and wrapping the fingers places those fingers and hands in the position we may want to manipulate the clutch and front brake.  During normal operations, we should be able to lift our hands from both bars and our upper body should retain it's position.

 

When I see riders that are making multiple quick little panic turns while going through a corner, or over steering and making multiple corrections in lean angle, it probably has something to do with experience level, or a misunderstanding how the bike turns, but very often it is also a driver that is way to stiff and needs to relax on the controls and the ability to ride comfortably and relaxed comes by developing our riding muscles and posture.

 

BTW, I absolutely agree, Never Stop Training, Never Stop Improving

I agree with your evaluation in every respect EagleSix. I most likely was supporting my upper body with hands on grips. (Doing that can make one's hands go numb also.) That was explained very early on the body position technique. Proper is forearms parallel with the ground, elbows and wrists loose. Using the Proper Riding Position one supports the upper body using feet on pegs, knees grasping tank, back in a s-curve posture.

 

My back pain issues are actuallyt improved by riding. Someone once explained one should use his abs (esp. the bottom two of ones "six-pack") instead of the weaker back lower back muscles to hold one erect. Thus is built solid core strength. 

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When I first saw the video it was not accompanied by an inept, preachy, inappropriate "lesson" on counter-steering.  It was just the video.  It looks like the "perpetrator" of this effort was someone called 1972H2, who probably made it and apparently uploaded it to YouTube in July 2015.  I wonder if he even had the permission of the copyright holder to do this?  

 

Found the original video: 

 

 

The rider definitely survived, at least until June 2015 (when he posted the video)!  

 

If it gets people thinking, though, I suppose it's a good thing, but not everyone who makes videos knows what they're doing...

 

Ciao,

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10 hours ago, EagleSix said:

 It is apparent the road had some uneven surface at that exact point which threw the suspension into havoc and would have added to the rider panic.  His speed going into the turn was below 50, maybe about 48 mph, but the rumble of the road screwed up his line.  The camera direction indicates he did have fixation as it never turns to the right as it would if he looked right (look right, go right), although his eyes could have been right, the camera/helmet direction would imply he fixated during the last few seconds.

 

I think the exception was the road surface in combination with the speed (although slow, maybe not slow enough for these bumps!), front braking not being as effective as normal because of the bumps elevating the front tire and reducing the braking effect, the suspension being thrown off and altering the line, all of which lead to the fixation.  As often happens when we crash it is a combination of factors.

 

 

Can we turn a bike without counter-steering?  It's not easy, but can be done at very slow speeds depending on the weight ratio between the rider and the bike.  But then, who would care, counter-steering works at all practical speeds including parking lot speeds.

 

 

 

Watch the right hand, it appears the rider was applying the front brake and rolling on and off the throttle with the clutch still out, thus causing the bike to buck....  whatever the case the rider had poor skills at best....

 

at very low speeds we counter weight and steer, not counter-steer...... and maybe add some knee,  some rear brake, some clutch, and peg weighting..... sorry, too many "Motor Cop" drills, with and without motor cops ;)  YRMV

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I would never argue against counter weight and steer, as there are times I use it, when the surface is not solid like grass, wet, dirt, gravel, or diesel fuel (the worse!).  Usually however I counter-steer.  And, I'm also not embarrassed to tippy toe to make a tight turn.  I seldom make a street U-turn and when I have, usually there has been moving obstacles that could present an encounter or close encounter, like dogs, cats, kids running around, on skate boards or bicycles, and adults paying no attention and not expecting me to quickly zip around and go the opposite direction.  Or the very worse, while parking with 50 other riders during a ride stop of cruisers at the 2nd and 3rd bar hop stop, it's like a bunch of ants and worms!

 

Counter weight and steer is the current most popular technique and it works, and if the rider is proficient, controlled and thereby safe doing so, why not.  Nonetheless, counter-steer works at very low speeds and if the rider is proficient, controlled and thereby safe doing so, why not!  I would also not argue against some knee, feathering the rear brake, feathering the clutch and peg weight.  And I too have had some "motor cop" drills, with and without motor cops and they were always fun in a closed parking lot course.  Different Folks, Different Strokes, It's All Good.

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I used to help out at a monthly free skills clinic,  now defunct.   At the beginning of each monthly session we would ask for a show of hands from those who were familiar with countersteer.   Among new attendees about 2/3 of the hands would go up.   It never ceased to amaze me how many riders are out and about who don't know the concept.   

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