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Stray

Cam reinstall - timing help needed

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It looks like it was a real battle!  Glad you won!

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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Last week I took the plunge and removed the throttle bodies. Was worried about rubber boots being too hard and brittle after 20 years and 70k miles. 

 

Anyways, had to buy an extra long extension thingie to reach the rubber boot clamps. Despite some pretty serious corrosion they came undone without stripping (got to push against the screw pretty hard).

 

Ordinarily there’s no place for crowbars in motorcycle wrenching but some gentle application against the rim (working slowly along with some protection for rear cylinder head) popped rear boots right off. A little wiggle and the front boots also gave way. 

 

8C8C7ED9-78EE-4B88-8BC1-57EA02B61860.thumb.jpeg.8a9badbd8faff8ad87dd382f493404c3.jpeg

 

Here they are in all their filth and rust. 

 

539EE2C9-2633-46A0-99A0-B4B892FCA07F.thumb.jpeg.c83b22cde9e697d43c366f1bfc2d29d6.jpeg

 

Note the cardboard box is from a Vtech Christmas toy - I thought that was funny! 

 

9F9B3F3C-A2E0-44B8-A6F6-87AE14419147.thumb.jpeg.9c388cdf7fea65f2245e0e06a1125b21.jpeg

 

Closeup of the butterflies shows some black buildup on the opening edge. 

 

9346EC62-B9E9-4F49-8CA6-DCF89D2DACE7.thumb.jpeg.848eef2f46ed1b511b55c11d14ed3d31.jpeg

 

Sprayed liberally with throttle body cleaner and broke out the toothbrush. Soaked butterflies on both sides a few minutes to break down the kak.

 

FA126A3E-5D4F-44EF-8301-DB64C1DAC6AA.thumb.jpeg.916fdd05f3726bc605f4f6e4167633b4.jpeg

 

My God, the sh!t that came out was biblical!

 

Some of the cr@p on the cardboard “workbench”...

 

24EFDD45-9E49-4757-8BFA-29DE8CB4FADE.thumb.jpeg.9b9a2a5a7e55a06cc0fdc1540b1ccc8e.jpeg

 

One hour later throttle bodies are looking better but certainly not perfect. Some stubborn stains and corrosion remain after two full cans of cleaner and a few toothbrushes being sacrificed to the cause. 

 

0DDA08DC-C1C5-46BB-AC55-A5FA90B91722.thumb.jpeg.72dc1661acfd03544c45a0d84f521636.jpeg

 

I cleaned throttle bodies BEFORE removing injectors as didn’t want crud falling into any of the small holes when they were exposed. 

 

Allen key/wrench used to undo fuel rails. Ring spanner used to apply leverage. 

 

73546C20-031B-4924-ABDE-924E4485D478.jpeg

 

Fuel rails and injectors coming off all at once. Nice and neat! 

B00814F4-C78B-4269-A363-25BCAC320683.jpeg

 

Here they are removed. 

 

5CE08572-0B1C-41CB-A17F-52CC01E1AC8A.jpeg

 

Looks like some dirt and water ingress getting past seals for the injectors. This is where the business end of the injector fits into the throttle body. 

 

E397DDFE-037A-4017-92DE-660360F65534.jpeg

D2DFB9AE-F52C-4755-97C7-4E274B4462D3.jpeg

 

Injectors looking dirty but not overly so. Was expecting far worse given age and mileage, to be honest. 

 

D2BA0E48-B993-4EC0-9405-60C95EA804F7.jpeg

 

Crusty buildup on front seal suggests rather a lot of cr@p had got past it. This stuff is HARD like ceramic! 

 

A0D410D5-FBAE-4120-8004-DB438DE591C9.jpeg

 

Removing some of the crud in the injector seats with “GENTLE” use of a flat screwdriver. You can see the dirt  coming off on the tool. Much cleaner bore means new rubber will seal better when re-installed. I didn’t touch the cone shaped bit for fear of scratching. 

 

1EC53C20-BC09-4914-823C-DD4D75300858.jpeg

37166A86-FFB6-445B-B216-57D4F8CDFD0D.jpeg

 

Injectors now removed from rail.

 

Wasn’t sure if I should buy new or rebuild these. On the one hand they are 20 years old and have reasonably hard mileage on them. On the other, we have better fuel in the UK than in the US so they couldn’t be too bad inside. 

 

8C9530C1-7B95-4E3F-9ACE-30E3AAB3101C.jpeg

 

On the horns of s dilemma:

1. get these professionally rebuilt? We don’t have many petrol injector rebuilding businesses in the UK (possibly because our fuel is pretty good)

 

2. Do I rebuild them myself with some carb/TB cleaner and a 9v battery? Lots of videos on YouTube. Problem is I don’t get a flow chart or ultrasound cleaning this way. Just soak, spray clean, back flush and replace seals. Very DIY and cheapest option

 

3. Buy new injectors and be confident they are 100%. Most expensive option (around $160 plus shipping/taxes from US - UL prices are insane!) 

 

4. Buy rebuilt injectors with flow chart. Cheaper than 3 above but how do I know if they have actually been cleaned properly? Also, LOTS of knock-off injectors being sold as remanufactured items on eBay so this is a minefield. 

 

Anyway, I was leaning towards the DIY option and bought some seals from the US in preparation. Then I stumbled across this listing on eBay: 

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F302743465882

 

At that price it was certainly worth a visit so I drove down and met Dave Bennet in the flesh. 

 

Lovely bloke! Saw his premises and ASNU injector machine. He talked me through his process: spray clean; then ultrasonic clean whilst activating the submerged injectors; then back flush; final spray clean and flow testing. 

 

He had them done the very next day and I dropped by to pick up the flow chart below. 

 

9AF5ED42-D54D-4AD9-939F-9DE9100EBF37.jpeg

 

They weren’t too bad as it happens, although two had a dodgy spray pattern that was fixed by the cleaning. 

 

Also got a nice cash discount over the already low eBay price! Seriously, everyone else quoted me 4-5 times that price which is hard to swallow when new units cost only slightly more. 

 

Here they are well packaged and numbered. Looking really good and I’m really happy with them. 

 

If anyone wants injectors cleaned I am happy to endorse BobBeck Injector Services in Warminster, CV34 6TH. His number is: zero1926888110 (mods, please feel free to remove if inappropriate. I have no connection to this business other than having injectors cleaned this week). 

 

He didn’t have seals/filter for me but was so cheap I can’t complain. Got a seal/filter kit arriving in a few days anyway so it all worked out pukka! 

 

FC72045F-EF88-4D85-8DDB-14F11BFF8DEE.jpeg

 

New silicone hoses to be installed next week. 

 

Tempted to throw throttle bodies in dishwasher before assembly but not sure sensors would survive it. 

 

Anyone done this? Grateful for any advice, especially from anyone who has done this. 

 

Stray

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You might want to replumb that thing, too. My vacuum lines were pretty crusty and leaking enough to throw a code on the MAP sensor, so I had to re-remove the throttle body and run new vacuum.

 

It's not hard. Just did it one line at a time so I never got lost. So, since you've made the mess already, you might as well.

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Its nice to see the injectors wern't to bad given their age and milage but looks like I should probably be seeing to my seals in the not to distant future.?

 

I was wondering if the throttle bodies had to be removed to access two of the four cooling system elboes in the valley of the engine block (I'm not sure from memory)? Could be worth changing/checking the 'o' ring seals in them while the engine is in bits? 

 

Consider this...Dish washer soap is caustic... will eat aluminium/magnesium castings very quickly. 

 

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5 hours ago, MooseMoose said:

You might want to replumb that thing, too. 

 

It's not hard. Just did it one line at a time so I never got lost. 

I saw your post on this earlier and will follow your lead. Got new silicone lines ready to go.

 

Still thinking of running TB through  dishwasher first to give a deeper clean (but no point if it is going to ruin the sensors). What do you think? 

 

2 hours ago, Zarquon said:

I should probably be seeing to my seals in the not to distant future.?

 

Spot on - got a seal/filter kit on order from the USA. Will fit with silicone grease (same stuff as brake calliper seals). 

 

2 hours ago, Zarquon said:

I was wondering if the throttle bodies had to be removed to access two of the four cooling system elboes in the valley of the engine block (I'm not sure from memory)? Could be worth changing/checking the 'o' ring seals in them while the engine is in bits? 

 

Spot on again!

 

Had a coolant leak somewhere in there and will be replacing o-rings/clamps and hoses. Might go silicone...

 

2 hours ago, Zarquon said:

Consider this...Dish washer soap is caustic... will eat aluminium/magnesium castings very quickly. 

 

 

I guess you’re right, BUT, dishwasher has a rinse cycle that removes all soap residues. Soap is only active for a short time during the cleaning cycle. 

 

I will also be coating TB with ACF50 anti corrosion oil after. 

 

We run lots of aluminium items through the dishwasher without damage. Most modern frying pans are aluminium with raw bases - mine seem OK wash-after-wash. Same for baking trays and lots of other stuff - comes out the washer OK. 

 

So I’m not worried about aluminium corroding; more worried about hot water entering the sensors and damaging them. 

 

Is this a real concern or not? I know motorcycles can ride in the rain but hot soapy water is a different thing entirely. 

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48 minutes ago, Stray said:
50 minutes ago, Stray said:

got a seal/filter kit on order from the USA. Will fit with silicone grease (same stuff as brake calliper seals). 

 

I don't suppose you could post the suppliers web link?

🙄

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16 hours ago, Stray said:

1C5DE1A2-F8D9-47C4-9F3C-2BF259FE6EC5.thumb.jpeg.449f83d0b4f9517ec1a4a2d69d3ee895.jpegRear wheel now on! 

 

 

 

 

Have you attached the brake hanger to the swingarm

 

 

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12 hours ago, Zarquon said:

I don't suppose you could post the suppliers web link?

🙄

Here you go: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F273649792185

 

He made this listing especially for me. If it’s no longer live just do a search for his other items using details in the title. 

3 hours ago, gig said:

 

 

Have you attached the brake hanger to the swingarm

 

 

Not yet, Gig.

 

Thinking a simple home-made ally bracket will do and maybe I should stick bearings/bushings in the bolt holes? Not sure how I’m going to tackle that yet. 

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17 hours ago, Stray said:

So I’m not worried about aluminium corroding; more worried about hot water entering the sensors and damaging them. 

 

Is this a real concern or not? I know motorcycles can ride in the rain but hot soapy water is a different thing entirely. 

 

 

It IS a concern, though I don't know how much.

 

And the corroding is a concern.

 

Somewhere in the Honda manual it says to NOT use carb cleaner on the throttlebody as the bores are coated in a molybdenum something or other to prevent corrosion.  I didn't mention it because you're well past that stage, but yeah. Make sure to do anti corrosion.

 

Also very smart to do the o rings. Mine were a crusty mess. It's a 5th gen, and 20 years takes its toll on rubber, regardless.  They're a cheap, easy change if you have the throttlebody off anyway.

 

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On 1/16/2019 at 10:07 AM, Stray said:

Here you go: https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F273649792185

 

He made this listing especially for me. If it’s no longer live just do a search for his other items using details in the title. 

Not yet, Gig.

 

Thinking a simple home-made ally bracket will do and maybe I should stick bearings/bushings in the bolt holes? Not sure how I’m going to tackle that yet. 

IMG_4914.thumb.jpg.e331b54f4cd8bae63bcb0aa0f01df4c1.jpgIMG_4772.thumb.jpg.ec7a688e232d1f67dccb9236cd51b4e0.jpgIMG_5006.thumb.jpg.8fbf92a83279b670c8405d61cea04a20.jpg

IMG_5032.thumb.jpg.515524276b2985c85a6d17a89d6200a8.jpg

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On 1/15/2019 at 8:24 PM, Stray said:

 

We run lots of aluminium items through the dishwasher without damage. Most modern frying pans are aluminium with raw bases - mine seem OK wash-after-wash. Same for baking trays and lots of other stuff - comes out the washer OK. 

 

So I’m not worried about aluminium corroding; more worried about hot water entering the sensors and damaging them. 

 

Is this a real concern or not? I know motorcycles can ride in the rain but hot soapy water is a different thing entirely. 

 

Most aluminum parts have anodized surfaces (clear) that won't be attacked too much in a dishwasher.  However, any part that has a nick or worn the anodizing (heck or clear-coat or powder coat) or coating away can easily corrode (surface) in a hot water and high pH dish-washer cleaning compound.  IF you run it without the cleaner--most likely the heat/steam/water will wash away quite a lot of grime.  IF you add the cleaning product--you do run the chance of corrosion.  Aluminum parts here in my washer --I see evidence of corrosion if the coating has worn away.

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On 1/17/2019 at 3:14 PM, zupatun said:

IF you run it without the cleaner--most likely the heat/steam/water will wash away quite a lot of grime.  IF you add the cleaning product--you do run the chance of corrosion.

Do you think the sensors would be safe if I run TB through dishwasher without soap?  

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On 1/17/2019 at 12:39 AM, gig said:

IMG_4914.thumb.jpg.e331b54f4cd8bae63bcb0aa0f01df4c1.jpg

 

Thanks Gig, I saw this setup on another thread and thought it quite clever. 

 

Except for two things:

 

1. how does that bracket stop the rear calliper from spinning towards to swingarm when the bike is wheeled backwards?  

 

2. The “slot” design is simple and elegant but allows for movement and vibration in use. That will take a toll on the fixing bolt and/or the slot over time, widening the clearances and accelerating wear. I can almost picture the torque arm “slapping” against the fixing bolt in use. In time one of the two parts will give way and the rear calliper will spin free, striking the back of the swingarm. 

 

The OEM dogbone bracket only has holes, no slot, so it doesn’t allow movement/play. I’m thinking to make a shorter version of that, possibly with bearings, or rose joints and clevis.

 

Or just an ally bracket with two holes in either end...

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The Honda torque arms I'm familiar with (RC30/36/45/46) all use spherical bearings and 10mm bolts, except the NC35, which has some kind of slot arrangement.  

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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This set up is on SS swing-arm Ducati's, and NC35. It does not move unless you spin the axel. I would imagine the pressure is concentrated on the caliper mounting points.   

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6 hours ago, Fastdruid said:

RVF400 only slides horizontally. 

 

I'm scratching my head over this:

1702569001786s7.jpg.01f2cad334443765a1a5c3f82ee9c5b0.jpg

 

I guess it pivots a little around the cast bit on the swing arm, otherwise the hub would be locked in place!

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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You know I hadn't considered it before...but you're right, it *has* to pivot slightly. 

 

Next time I take the wheel off I'll take a look (so expect a response about 2021 or so). 

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On 1/21/2019 at 7:55 PM, JZH said:

 

I'm scratching my head over this:

1702569001786s7.jpg.01f2cad334443765a1a5c3f82ee9c5b0.jpg

 

I guess it pivots a little around the cast bit on the swing arm, otherwise the hub would be locked in place!

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

 

Someone posted a picture to the FB group without the caliper bracket which reminded me of this before 2021... The cast bit on the swingarm *isn't* a cast bit on the swing arm. It rotates (part 12 below) 

Honda MOTO 400 RVF 1996  RVF400RT Frame REAR BRAKE CALIPER

 

Swingarm looks like this without it (and the hub etc).

 

Image result for RVF400 swingarm -site:pinterest.com

 

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Yes, that makes sense.  And saves me from having go out and look at the NC35 in my garage... :wink:

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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On 2/5/2019 at 4:29 PM, Fastdruid said:

The cast bit on the swingarm *isn't* a cast bit on the swing arm. It rotates (part 12 below)..

 

That makes more sense. I couldn’t wrap my mind around it being fixed. 

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So I took a leaf out of Seb’s book and tried his Vaseline tip. 

 

No, not what you’re thinking! 

 

I smeared the tired plastic on my handlebar switchgear and dashboard with Vaseline and let it sit for a few days. Then I wiped it off with a crappy old microfibre cloth this afternoon. 

 

Here’s what they looked like before: 

 

F863926B-6DA5-443F-955B-26F8E3500DF5.thumb.jpeg.d1eae8a869356479b11caa6535239ca2.jpegEAC2D302-DC2D-4D80-B013-CB60621F9A51.thumb.jpeg.23efce9644f5fe4d0420fce8a3e29a16.jpeg9EA19F3C-CB9B-4FD0-A666-628208A0E1E9.thumb.jpeg.6d20185c8af1de8d83ec916028a2c2c4.jpeg

 

 

Then slathered generously with Vaseline: 

 

 B9575BFF-362D-4E2F-9B46-341493334B11.thumb.jpeg.aa4bd900526cc711f5a8310708c491a9.jpegF1BA2845-77BF-4630-B838-B3B71D096416.thumb.jpeg.c56a2ce0be0f402618917a6e396aa6ef.jpeg9F8E55A4-B954-463B-9D73-25F0695B8972.thumb.jpeg.4572a8cb4e48e02335c82e683e4f9ae6.jpeg

 

 

Then Vaseline wiped off to reveal a slightly more rejuvenated surface: 

 

 

7D395AB2-AF84-41ED-B27B-5103E901588B.thumb.jpeg.6e5c10c49d200f5892258dab706f673e.jpegC06ABF58-36F6-425B-AF08-3648074F4354.thumb.jpeg.f1a19f1b332495f11796427051b3339f.jpeg43B61426-E0EB-4C11-99A4-2E503FD8FE68.thumb.jpeg.33a190f70c63cddf37ae5b1a863beec0.jpeg

 

Looks a bit better I think. More satin than matte. Vaseline had begun to skin-over after about a week but wiped off easy enough. Let’s see how long it lasts. 

 

Thanks for the tip, Seb - I’m a believer! 

 

Stray

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Started playing around with the Triumph Daytona 675 rear subframe and tail section this afternoon. 

 

Didn’t have a great deal of time and most of it was spent hammering the subframe straight! Did you ever regret buying something on eBay? 

 

Once that was done I had to fit the fuel tank (full of fuel) onto the bike for measurements and looks. So how does one do this without pi$$ing fuel all over everything? Well I cut up some spare bits of silicone hose and clamped them shut with zip ties: 

 

3C0D4548-7C69-45BF-9291-86B6567271C5.thumb.jpeg.d977c454186e115b101177fa56a3097b.jpeg

 

A wide piece of silicone tube was cut to go over the fuel line hose: 

 

F26D6FF5-76F9-4A8A-8BE7-B6C08D2C23F5.thumb.jpeg.24e86dc315335cf2a1c30f5277fd983f.jpeg

 

Managed to snap a few pics of the “stance” with this new tail. 

 

Shoved in tail: 

 

4C47F7FE-0193-4286-9EB2-7D8752FEBADE.thumb.jpeg.ef9431d80b27522ec6efc3aeb46a4ce4.jpeg

 

 

High tail: 

 

F7D1993E-7D15-4D16-AD40-3C3888DBE930.thumb.jpeg.81595b77efb7fdd14efd0b02f092d885.jpeg14508551-D3A6-44F0-9DA9-7F0CF9B47644.thumb.jpeg.8adabc35e66c48fab6e885894bf24c30.jpeg

 

 

Lower tail: 

 

1AEE01CF-81C9-46A7-AE77-58C6E72B79DE.thumb.jpeg.08872039f3c544b2d95db361f77a88e4.jpeg

4C7BE356-AEE3-4348-AFE3-0574F627D21B.thumb.jpeg.63c2609c47a38f9e9cc76cd9e9a036d6.jpeg

 

Note that the subframe needs to be moved 10mm closer to close the gap between tank and seat. Subframe is sticking out 10mm too far back, so when finished it will end roughly where the end of the black seat cowl is now. 

 

Here’s a pic of the gap that needs closing: 90F85F59-ABC6-4D45-B07F-A27AC2C4DB55.thumb.jpeg.5aaa612ea7d29e5f3a8f1fa203345b68.jpeg

 

What do you guys think? I’m leaning towards the Lower tail look. Makes rear cowl and tank line up parallel. Tail also plays well with knee cutouts in tank. 

 

Am am I seeing this right? 

 

Here are the dimensions that need squaring if anyone is really bored...

 

  1. Daytona 675 07-12 subframe is 97mm too long on the bottom rail - need to cut rail 97mm shorter. 
  2. Top rail is 132mm too short - needs to be lengthened by 35mm (132-97mm).
  3. Width at top of Daytona 675 subframe is 166mm (outside) but needs to be 154mm (VFR top mount inside) - needs to be pinched closer by 12mm
  4. Width at bottom of Daytona 675 subframe is 195mm (inside) but needs to be 222mm (VFR bottom mount outside) - needs to be spread out 27mm

Best, 

 

Stray

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