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Rear brake use


GP Paul

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Front - 2 Calipers and 2 rotors

 

Rear - 1 Caliper and 1 rotor

 

Where does weight want to go when it is being stopped?

In the car brakes are slammed on anything not fastened down where does it go?

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This applies only to linked brakes.

Consumer Motorcycle News used to publish used bike prices a couple of times a year. They used KBB. At the end of the articles they published some best-of statistics. The tested fifth gens were deemed tied for 6th best at 108.x feet 60mph to 0 mph. Most bike reviews consider 120 feet exceptional.

 

The first time I addressed my brakes on my first fifth gen the Honda Tech noticed my front and rear brake pads were not wearing as equally as possible. He said to always use both brakes. The theory behind linked brakes is that both together caused the bike to squat down more rather that pitch forward. And I've experienced some amazingly less-than-expected braking events. Pulling out of the traffic lane to allow more room for an emergency braking I ended up stopping much short of the bumper of the car ahead of me that I thought I would hit without the manoeuvres.

 

Bottom line: they really do work great together.  

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For my size (140#), my bike (ZX14), and my tires (Hypersport S21), my skill level, it's always front brake.  I've never done a stoppie on this bike, but during real emergency stops or practiced emergency stops, the rear tire does lift or nearly lift.  That means no traction on the rear.  No traction, no stopping assistance.  If the rear wheel is off the surface or near to it, any amount of rear brake is only stopping the rotation of the rear wheel and adding nothing to stopping the bike (this could be different with linked brakes, if by applying rear brake addition braking was achieved in the front brake system). 

 

Different riders, different bikes, difference tires, different results.  It's good we have general rules, but it disappoints me when I read or hear instructors give hard rules to new riders without considering the equipment and skill level of the audience.  I think the MSF could easily spend a full day on stopping.  A small amount of time lecturing principles and theory, then a few hours with school bikes, then the rest of the time on the students bike, on a range that provided for at least 50-60 mph.  This would provide time, practice, skill level development for the student to find what works best for their own bike.  Maybe they already have such a course!  I doubt it.

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2 hours ago, EagleSix said:

For my size (140#), my bike (ZX14), and my tires (Hypersport S21), my skill level, it's always front brake.  I've never done a stoppie on this bike, but during real emergency stops or practiced emergency stops, the rear tire does lift or nearly lift.  That means no traction on the rear.  No traction, no stopping assistance.  If the rear wheel is off the surface or near to it, any amount of rear brake is only stopping the rotation of the rear wheel and adding nothing to stopping the bike (this could be different with linked brakes, if by applying rear brake addition braking was achieved in the front brake system). 

 

Different riders, different bikes, difference tires, different results.  It's good we have general rules, but it disappoints me when I read or hear instructors give hard rules to new riders without considering the equipment and skill level of the audience.  I think the MSF could easily spend a full day on stopping.  A small amount of time lecturing principles and theory, then a few hours with school bikes, then the rest of the time on the students bike, on a range that provided for at least 50-60 mph.  This would provide time, practice, skill level development for the student to find what works best for their own bike.  Maybe they already have such a course!  I doubt it.

I understand your critique of MSF minimum braking instructions. MSF could do something about that by explaining that it is a Basic course. Hopefully to get them on the street for seat time on the basics. At the end of every course it should be emphasize that all riders should plan on further education, at a minimun in a MFS Advanced Rider Course or, better, at a local track. This is where the time can be devoted to improving individual braking skills. I know the Advanced Rider Course at a local techincal college made a HUGE improvment in my riding skills. I continue to do at least one a year in May, early in our riding season here in the Land Of Low Weather Expectations.

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On the street I employ both the fronts and the rear In an effort to
squat the weight transfer whereas on the track I only concentrate on
the fronts...

 

Light weight Ceramic Matrix Composite rotors $2,500 a set

3193188896_9d34585b46_o.jpg

 

Light weight Ceramic Matrix Composite rotor off a Ducati $500 used $1,500 new...

DSCN1974.JPG

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3 hours ago, MaxSwell said:

I understand your critique of MSF minimum braking instructions. MSF could do something about that by explaining that it is a Basic course. Hopefully to get them on the street for seat time on the basics. At the end of every course it should be emphasize that all riders should plan on further education, at a minimun in a MFS Advanced Rider Course or, better, at a local track. This is where the time can be devoted to improving individual braking skills. I know the Advanced Rider Course at a local techincal college made a HUGE improvment in my riding skills. I continue to do at least one a year in May, early in our riding season here in the Land Of Low Weather Expectations.

 

Yes, I agree.  Most if not all of the courses I have attended over the years, somewhere stated that additional training as a follow-up would be helpful to the student.  I'm good with that part.  However, throughout the class, it would be more responsible, in my opinion, if the instructors/coaches were to point out, while on subject, which course they provided that the student could explore the exceptions.  I certainly do not want to sound like I am so critical of MSF that their courses are of no value.  I think they are of value and I'm going to attend another one in early March.  I think I will have a good time and hopefully learn something new of value, and if not learning something new, I'm sure I will re-learn somethings of value that perhaps I need to improve on, and of course the range time with coaches should help tighten up my skills.

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It doesn't really matter on a Hog. They don't stop well anyway.  Try that on a sport bike and you won't last long.  Ask her how many mies she has ridden motorcycles.  

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As there were no other training available to me until September, I elected to attend an MSF Confident Riders Course a few weekends ago, which also allow me time to visit with some old Army buddies, as well as, a visit with my kids.  I knew going in it was not my preference, but being I'm always a student, why not.

 

It was the typical MSF course, ten students (2 didn't show) and 2 instructors.  It was 5 hours of wait, start, stop, wait, swerve, wait, weave, brake, stop, wait, start, brake, wait, round and round, etc.  The instructors were pleasant, read directly from the playbook and conducted themselves in a professional manor only yelling at the same student twice.  The yelling part was to get his attention as twice he went the wrong direction and other students scrambled to avoid him.

 

I thought that was the best part of the class, because it came closer to simulating street riding than the rest of the course.  Imagine that, a wrong way rider!  Kind of funny, but also serious as In the past two years in the Phoenix metro there have been probably over 20 deaths caused by wrong way driver crashes.  The most recent last week killed 3.

 

Anyway the braking instruction were typical for the MSF.  A short read from the playbook about dual braking front/rear, and a demonstration which really doesn't show anything about how much front vs how much rear.  No discussion about different bike braking systems.  Just a short mention about ABS brakes.  No mention about linked brakes.  No mention about trail braking.  What they did was little more than the Basic Course.  A refresher yes, but nothing in addition, which is disappointing.

 

Two aspects of safe riding that are important for me is braking and negotiating turns/curves, and this course being a step up from the Basic Course seems would be ideal for exploring those two skills with advanced\additional information and training above what was presented in the Basic Course.  As the majority of single vehicle crashes involve curves and braking I would think more attention would have been paid during this class.

 

As for the curves/turns at speed, meaning in around 20 mph in 2nd gear (the fastest any maneuver was made during this course), I found it interesting that the instructor, during every demo, counterbalanced (his upper body) when initiating every turn, as if he were swerving.

 

A discussion about counter-steering was short, from the book and during open discussions, again as in other MSF courses, the explanation included counter-steering to be used above slow speeds such as 10-15 mph, which is at most flawed, and at least incorrect.

 

I was surprised that during open Q&A on the range, the lead instructor only provided 2 incorrect answers, and more specifically 2 incorrect complete answers.  One was concerning maximum speed you can swerve and the other concerning how to properly cross from one lane to another when there is a small rut to cross over.

 

Again, as I have stated in other post, I am critical of riding instructions regardless of the course.  I am even more critical of my own technique when instructing (I'm not a specific motorcycle instructor).  Regardless of what I feel are shortcomings of the MSF courses, overall I think they are of value for the majority/most riders.  And for many riders the MSF courses are the only available and practical.

 

But one more ironic pet peeve.  I have never attended any parking lot class, both MSF and others, that actually spent anytime instructing student how to park!!  Although probably not one of those safety issues that are going to cause fatalities, there are probably more 0-3 mph lay-overs during parking, at the pumps, during tight maneuvers, or in-out of the garage than any other time, and they can cause injury and of course bike and property damage.

 

 

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3 hours ago, EagleSix said:

Anyway the braking instruction were typical for the MSF.  A short read from the playbook about dual braking front/rear, and a demonstration which really doesn't show anything about how much front vs how much rear.  No discussion about different bike braking systems.  Just a short mention about ABS brakes.  No mention about linked brakes.  No mention about trail braking.  What they did was little more than the Basic Course.  A refresher yes, but nothing in addition, which is disappointing.

 

Two aspects of safe riding that are important for me is braking and negotiating turns/curves, and this course being a step up from the Basic Course seems would be ideal for exploring those two skills with advanced\additional information and training above what was presented in the Basic Course.  As the majority of single vehicle crashes involve curves and braking I would think more attention would have been paid during this class.

 

As for the curves/turns at speed, meaning in around 20 mph in 2nd gear (the fastest any maneuver was made during this course), I found it interesting that the instructor, during every demo, counterbalanced (his upper body) when initiating every turn, as if he were swerving.

 

A discussion about counter-steering was short, from the book and during open discussions, again as in other MSF courses, the explanation included counter-steering to be used above slow speeds such as 10-15 mph, which is at most flawed, and at least incorrect.

 

I was surprised that during open Q&A on the range, the lead instructor only provided 2 incorrect answers, and more specifically 2 incorrect complete answers.  One was concerning maximum speed you can swerve and the other concerning how to properly cross from one lane to another when there is a small rut to cross over.

 

Again, as I have stated in other post, I am critical of riding instructions regardless of the course.  I am even more critical of my own technique when instructing (I'm not a specific motorcycle instructor).  Regardless of what I feel are shortcomings of the MSF courses, overall I think they are of value for the majority/most riders.  And for many riders the MSF courses are the only available and practical.

 

But one more ironic pet peeve.  I have never attended any parking lot class, both MSF and others, that actually spent anytime instructing student how to park!!  Although probably not one of those safety issues that are going to cause fatalities, there are probably more 0-3 mph lay-overs during parking, at the pumps, during tight maneuvers, or in-out of the garage than any other time, and they can cause injury and of course bike and property damage.

 

 

 

 

You should come north and attend one of our MSF courses. While the one you attended may be "typical" for your area, which i doubt, ours are much different.

 

We address everything from braking systems, Front/rear ratios, Thresh-hold braking, and Trail braking. And we discuss all the options for lines through curves, as well as "Proper" posture for riding curves. AND we cover parking ;)

 

As a long time MSF certified coach, it is sad when people say they attended a "Typical" MSF course and were less than impressed. It's like getting pulled over by a less than stellar cop, and saying all cops suck... There are over 10k MSF certified coaches out there, and not all are as well versed and skilled as we would hope. You should send your write up to the school as they would probably appreciate the feed back. There is at least 1 MSF certified coach in AZ who also provides coaching to many racers down there, and his class would have probably been above your expectations.

 

If MSF is below your level, some of us also coach at the local track where you can go WAY over 20mph ;)

 

Good write up, even if it makes me sad.......

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On 2/15/2018 at 12:46 PM, MaxSwell said:

I understand your critique of MSF minimum braking instructions. MSF could do something about that by explaining that it is a Basic course. Hopefully to get them on the street for seat time on the basics. At the end of every course it should be emphasize that all riders should plan on further education, at a minimun in a MFS Advanced Rider Course or, better, at a local track. This is where the time can be devoted to improving individual braking skills. I know the Advanced Rider Course at a local techincal college made a HUGE improvment in my riding skills. I continue to do at least one a year in May, early in our riding season here in the Land Of Low Weather Expectations.

 

Good on you :) getting people to return for more advanced classes is a problem with training sites all around the country. Most riders feel that after the Basic class they have riding down pat... Reality is they probably only know enough to start learning....

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Just now, slo1 said:

 

Good on you :) getting people to return for more advanced classes is a problem with training sites all around the country. Most riders feel that after the Basic class they have riding down pat... Reality is they probably only know enough to start learning....

I have figured out that I should never stop learning.

At least until I become infallible which is about to happen any minute now. :pinocchio:

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3 hours ago, slo1 said:

 

 

You should come north and attend one of our MSF courses. While the one you attended may be "typical" for your area, which i doubt, ours are much different.

 

We address everything from braking systems, Front/rear ratios, Thresh-hold braking, and Trail braking. And we discuss all the options for lines through curves, as well as "Proper" posture for riding curves. AND we cover parking ;)

 

As a long time MSF certified coach, it is sad when people say they attended a "Typical" MSF course and were less than impressed. It's like getting pulled over by a less than stellar cop, and saying all cops suck... There are over 10k MSF certified coaches out there, and not all are as well versed and skilled as we would hope. You should send your write up to the school as they would probably appreciate the feed back. There is at least 1 MSF certified coach in AZ who also provides coaching to many racers down there, and his class would have probably been above your expectations.

 

If MSF is below your level, some of us also coach at the local track where you can go WAY over 20mph ;)

 

Good write up, even if it makes me sad.......

 

Well, my intent was not to make you sad, and I probably should have started a thread or posted to another, but the OP was talking about a supposedly MSF coach giving out bad information, so maybe it is appropriate here.  I applaud you and your fellow coaches in Utah for be stellar Rider Coaches.  Of the past 15 or so years I have only attended 4 parking lot MSF classes (not including the dirt bike class), all in the Phoenix area and although that may not be enough in the eyes of 10K coaches to be representative, you may agree it is far more than most riders have taken.  And please understand the "typical' comment is my opinion, as everything in my post, and for me this was "typical", as in the same way the other classes were conducted.  However there was one difference and I pointed that out.  In previous 3 classes there was 1 dickhead coach in each (not the same coach in each class).  In this class both instructors conducted themselves professionally and I recognized them for that.  Also, being 'typical", in my opinion, is more on the MSF leadership more than the individual coaches.

 

I have read many threads and comments posted by students and coaches stating they follow a playbook and many do it by reading their cue cards word for word.  These 2 instructors in this class appeared to be doing the same and I can surmise they were as thorough and complete as possible by the book to assure uniformity in conducting their class.  So, when I refer to "typical" it is more on the MSF.  I have heard more than one rider coach express they wish they could do more, or perhaps something different, but have little flexibility.

 

So, I will support you as a Rider Coach with a statement that hopefully most MSF rider coaches are of your high standard and your courses are better than those I have taken in the Phoenix Metro area.  And, I will repeat, I feel the MSF courses are of value  for the majority/most riders.  And, Thank You for the invite, as I might next year take you up on it.

 

As for the the 20 mph, I didn't say the MSF Confident Riders Course was below my level.  I just made a comment the fastest this course provided for was 20 mph which again, in my experience is typical for these type parking lot courses.  However I have had track training (actually at Miller in your fine state of Utah) and may in fact get some more in September, but need to get a few months closer to the date to determine availability for a private lesson.

 

I hope we are friends.  I need to post this, but will return later and in all fairness post a comment on the good things I think the MSF does.  And Thank You slo1 for the kind words.

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I'm back, that was a good dinner!  Now I will risk hijacking the thread, my apology to GP Paul, members and Admin.

 

I got this from the MSF website 'About Us' which may also be part of their mission statement....

 

"The Motorcycle Safety Foundation® is the internationally recognized developer of the comprehensive, research-based, Rider Education and Training System (RETS). RETS curricula promotes lifelong-learning for motorcyclists and continuous professional development for certified RiderCoaches(SM) and other trainers. MSF also actively participates in government relations, safety research, public awareness campaigns and the provision of technical assistance to state training and licensing programs."

 

I think is their value, backed by 10 thousand dedicated RiderCoaches and other sponsors, staff, and contributors.

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1 hour ago, EagleSix said:

 

In previous 3 classes there was 1 dickhead coach in each (not the same coach in each class).  In this class both instructors conducted themselves professionally and I recognized them for that.  Also, being 'typical", in my opinion, is more on the MSF leadership more than the individual coaches.

 

I have read many threads and comments posted by students and coaches stating they follow a playbook and many do it by reading their cue cards word for word.  These 2 instructors in this class appeared to be doing the same and I can surmise they were as thorough and complete as possible by the book to assure uniformity in conducting their class.  So, when I refer to "typical" it is more on the MSF.  I have heard more than one rider coach express they wish they could do more, or perhaps something different, but have little flexibility.

 

 

LOL :) all good. I train Coaches and try to weed out the Dickheads........ ;)

 

MSF schools are basically franchises, each with their own culture. In some cases they are also State controlled or run. Attitude and aptitude varies greatly, and some states/schools have more latitude than others.

 

Let me know when you get to Tooele, we can get a beer...... 

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On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 10:22 AM, superfunkomatic said:

I used to teach motorcycle training at a local safety council (similar to MSF course in the USA). We instructed that "it depends". 

 

Cruiser with lots of weight - start with rear and apply front - too much front too soon equals danger but most of the braking is done by the front brakes

Other bikes – start with front brakes and apply equal pressure evenly and continuously (not grab the brake but apply the brakes), rear brakes keep the bike hunkered down on the ground

With ABS – emergency avoidance, use brakes as above, or without avoidance grab and pull them as firmly and fully as possible.

Dirt bikes – more rear until controlled braking happens, then front

 

We also stressed the importance of body position and bracing yourself for braking (especially in emergency situations).

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Why would there be a different process for a cruiser?  I don't understand why the rear brake first would be suggested.   Thanx.

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6 hours ago, gloryracing said:

Why would there be a different process for a cruiser?  I don't understand why the rear brake first would be suggested.   Thanx.

Sports bikes have a high c of g, when you apply the front brakes the front suspension dips and loads up the front tyre so you can then brake harder.

 

A custom bike has a low c of g, if you apply the front brake it tends to lock the front wheel before the tyre loads up. By leading with the rear brake before the front you load the front tyre before the front brake is applied.

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On a sport bike, with clear, clean and smooth surfaced roads, the rear brake during an emergency threshold stop is going to be of little to no use, as the rear tire has little to no contact with the surface.  Depending on the speed and distance to obstacle, on road surfaces that are wet, dirty, sandy, slick, etc. things will change the preferred method of braking on a sport bike as they will on any other bike.  To give absolute braking methods on bike types differing only in weight class without further explanation of the exceptions, such as road surface, linked/non-linked brakes, etc., is to mislead new and inexperienced riders in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, EagleSix said:

To give absolute braking methods on bike types differing only in weight class without further explanation of the exceptions, such as road surface, linked/non-linked brakes, etc., is to mislead new and inexperienced riders in my opinion.

 

Most who attend the Basic Rider Course are completely new to riding.  They have no muscle memory and ride anything from cruisers to sport bikes.  IMO you have to keep it simple.  Teaching smooth gradual application of both brakes makes a lot of sense and is correct for an inexperienced rider in almost all situations.  Make sure that they understand that most of braking comes from the front and help them avoid locking the front wheel in gravel/slick surfaces.  Otherwise, you're teaching over their heads.  

 

Curious, what would you teach differently for linked brakes?  Understanding the difference is good.  But it seems learning to use both is a good practice.   

 

Personally, I don't use much rear brake unless gravel or needing to use my right hand when stopped on a hill.       

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1 hour ago, gradus said:

 

Most who attend the Basic Rider Course are completely new to riding.  They have no muscle memory and ride anything from cruisers to sport bikes.  IMO you have to keep it simple.  Teaching smooth gradual application of both brakes makes a lot of sense and is correct for an inexperienced rider in almost all situations.  Make sure that they understand that most of braking comes from the front and help them avoid locking the front wheel in gravel/slick surfaces.  Otherwise, you're teaching over their heads.  

 

Curious, what would you teach differently for linked brakes?  Understanding the difference is good.  But it seems learning to use both is a good practice.   

 

Personally, I don't use much rear brake unless gravel or needing to use my right hand when stopped on a hill.       

 

The only bike I have owned recently that had linked brakes was a Honda VFR800A.  On this bike the brakes were working properly (as designed as far as I could tell) and almost as well as I suspect that would have when new.  The amount of rear brake applied when I only used front brakes was about 10-15%, which is way more than I would normally used in an emergency where I would reach threshold braking, so I would not use any rear brake on that bike.  Also, when testing and using the rear brake in addition to the front, there was not measurable increase in stopping distance.  Another rider I knew had the same model but a few years newer and his rear brake was almost totally ineffective when applying the front brake only.  Both would appear to an MSF instructor as being equal, because they do not actually test the effectiveness of the particular bike being used by students in classes that students bring and use their own bikes.  I would have to ride and test the braking system on any students bike before putting them in the position to learn emergency threshold braking in a practical form.  However, I don't teach MSF and understand there isn't enough time for instructors to test every students bike other than the customary static test performed during inspection before class.

 

I understand and respect your opinion in preventing students from information overload.  However I was responding to the statement in a previous post,

 

"Cruiser with lots of weight - start with rear and apply front - too much front too soon equals danger but most of the braking is done by the front brakes

Other bikes – start with front brakes and apply equal pressure evenly and continuously (not grab the brake but apply the brakes), rear brakes keep the bike hunkered down on the ground With ABS – emergency avoidance, use brakes as above, or without avoidance grab and pull them as firmly and fully as possible.

Dirt bikes – more rear until controlled braking happens, then front"

 

Although I think superfunkomatic made a good post, I don't agree with it entirely because there are no exceptions or further specifics to determined on what braking systems are on what bikes in the category of "Cruiser with lots of weight", "Other bikes", "ABS" and "Dirt bikes".  My point is, general statement may be misleading to those who have not learned enough to read between the lines, the small print, or before and after the lines.  We probably disagree not on avoiding information overload, but rather how much information can be presented before a student reaches the point of overload.  And, also, in the Confident rider course I recently took and the previous Advanced Riders Course I took years ago, there wasn't much of anything presented differently during the braking session of these courses from the Basic Riders Course I too in 2006.

 

And, I agree with your statement "But it seems learning to use both is a good practice."  However I would qualify that as it is a good practice to learn to use both the front and rear brakes on your specific bike, both at the same time, just the front and/or just the back, as well as different proportions when combining the two depending on the braking needed, when, where and why.  Yes, it can become a discussion, and it doesn't have to all be delivered one right after the other, but I wouldn't want to get very far off subject or let a space of time expire before presenting at least a rudimentary explanation especially when a student is training on their own bike.

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Both my bikes have linked brakes.  My work bike, a 1300 pound Harley, I used always on, but modulated back only for cone course and both brakes every other time.  For not linked sportbikes, I used the back to continue braking when I needed to ease off the forks being so compressed.

 

Guzzi's way of doing it:

 

Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II 78.jpg

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On 4/2/2018 at 5:40 AM, gloryracing said:

Why would there be a different process for a cruiser?  I don't understand why the rear brake first would be suggested.   Thanx.

 

Sport bikes have stronger breaking in the front and different centre of gravity. Load the front, use the stopping power of the front, rear brake bites and holds the bike balanced and finishes the braking. Weight distribution also comes into play - sport bikes have nearly 50/50 weight front to back.

 

Cruisers and longer raked bikes have more weight aft and need the rear to first compress the front suspension and load it. It allows the weight to shift forward and then firmly and continuously apply the front. Heavy on the front brake first and it's more likely to low-side the bike or cause a front brake skid (which is particularly scary for a new rider - i.e. induces more panic braking).

 

That's the theory in the riding courses.

 

 

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On 4/2/2018 at 2:45 PM, gradus said:

 

Most who attend the Basic Rider Course are completely new to riding.  They have no muscle memory and ride anything from cruisers to sport bikes.  IMO you have to keep it simple.  Teaching smooth gradual application of both brakes makes a lot of sense and is correct for an inexperienced rider in almost all situations.  Make sure that they understand that most of braking comes from the front and help them avoid locking the front wheel in gravel/slick surfaces.  Otherwise, you're teaching over their heads.  

 

Curious, what would you teach differently for linked brakes?  Understanding the difference is good.  But it seems learning to use both is a good practice.   

 

Personally, I don't use much rear brake unless gravel or needing to use my right hand when stopped on a hill.       

Linked brakes with ABS - grab and pull as much brake as you can. Both brakes at the same time - no need to be progressive with ABS it modulates the brakes for you.

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On 4/2/2018 at 4:58 PM, EagleSix said:

Although I think superfunkomatic made a good post, I don't agree with it entirely because there are no exceptions or further specifics to determined on what braking systems are on what bikes in the category of "Cruiser with lots of weight", "Other bikes", "ABS" and "Dirt bikes".  My point is, general statement may be misleading to those who have not learned enough to read between the lines, the small print, or before and after the lines.  We probably disagree not on avoiding information overload, but rather how much information can be presented before a student reaches the point of overload.  And, also, in the Confident rider course I recently took and the previous Advanced Riders Course I took years ago, there wasn't much of anything presented differently during the braking session of these courses from the Basic Riders Course I too in 2006.

3

You're right. The post was meant to keep it simple. In the course, when I taught it years ago, I would talk about all the contingencies and possibilities - on/off-road, ABS or no ABS, types of bikes, types of conditions, etc. The Canadian and MSF courses are meant to be simple to give easy to follow techniques that will work with muscle memory and little or no thinking (just do it). As you become a better rider and more experienced then you know where the lines blur in technique and 'rules' and can decide for yourself. 

Basic courses = basic survival skills (if you remember them and practice). :)

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