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5th-Gen fork Upgrades


MsRN98

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Hello All--greetings from Madison, Wisconsin! While I'm certain this topic has already been beaten to death (and I've read many of the threads), I'm going to ask about it again. With something just over 3,000 miles on my '00 VFR since November, I've come to the same conclusion as many of you--the stock suspension is barely adequate to the bike it graces. I've talked with Jamie Daugherty (picked up the bike in Fort Wayne, too), and I'll definitely go with his re-tooled 929 rear shock. For the forks, though, there seem to be a plethora of options. If I stay with stock forks, Jamie's cartridge kit will go in my fork. However, there's also the brake de-link with Super Hawk lowers and brakes, or the RC51 build, with RC51 lower triple and Super Hawk upper triple. Has anyone here experienced more than one of these options? For someone like me, who's willing with a wrench but lacks welding, fabrication or engineering skills (sorry--bioscience, languages and healthcare background), is the RC51 mod too much for me to take on? As it obviously changes effective trail due to the changed fork offset, does it radically change the character of the bike? And for someone like me, who will never race but might do a few track days here and there, is the RC51 mod overkill? I have to change my upper tubes soon (bad pitting), so I'm trying to decide on the most sensible direction to take this wonderful bike. Thanks in advance, everyone, for your input!

 

Oh--here's a recent pic of my Yellow Bird...

 

 

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Very well said.007,  and agree to a point.  My thing is being one, I'd like to believe I know what I'm doing and my limits. Could I do better on another bike? Probably. But the VFR is such a great platform,  so close to being perfect in My Opinion, and for the money,  the VFR is a huge bargain, most don't know about.  Yes the wide open public roads that have a twist here and there is what it is all about , but in that comes a self awareness and control thing,  best have your a game on and your wits.. Couldn't agree more on getting ones selve to be better by taking a riding coarse at the track. From that you can start taking advantage and appreciate of all the up grades done to the VFR.  

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Speaking from the perspective of an experienced twisty mountain rider with zero fabrication ability, I chose the following (for my 6th gen ABS):
 
1) Traxxion AK20 cartridges with Penske triple clicker because I wanted to maintain the VFR look with the benefits of some upgraded technology but without having to fabricate anything that added to the level of complexity.  These are pricey but able to dial in the balance of performance and comfort which I desired.  As a fellow medical professional, the cost of hospital bills far outweigh saving even a few hundred dollars on suspension.  It has paid for itself if it keeps me off the ground just once.  I don't think you can go wrong with any of the kits made by Traxxion, Daugherty, Cogent or any others.  FWIW, Daugherty seems to be the best for meeting a low price point.  There is certainly a black magic to suspension that requires a lifetime of dedication and expensive tools, and I would rather stand on the shoulders of giants for my baseline setup than try to cook up something, myself, just to save a few bucks or find some mythical level of performance and comfort that will be achieved to 90-95% of "perfection" even with extensive fine tuning that can only be done by the rider with knowledge of how adjustable parts work.  Sportrider has a fantastic article on fine tuning suspension that is worth memorizing.
 
2) Spiegler / LSL SS kit with EBC HH pads because I wanted a more upright riding position to limit the effects of being old and out of shape on a day of sport touring.  The brakes have much better feel which allows me to utilize the skill I have improved over the years and are more than enough to activate the ABS in dry conditions.
 
3) Don't forget tires, which are arguably the most important link to the road and make all of the above relatively pointless if the tire doesn't stick to the pavement.  I will forgo this discussion for obvious reasons.
 
All this being said, we reach a performance barrier the VFR simply cannot cross due to the laws of physics without infringing on ever important safety margins.  As mentioned, there are multiple options for modification, but I don't think any will allow me to run the Dragon faster than the local I chased on an R3 with only custom pegs and upgraded tires without infringing on safety margins (I rarely drag knee while touring).  A KTM supermoto will assuredly pass us all sipping a latte and this margin is even greater while riding roads that make the Dragon look straight.  Speaking from experience of another local on the Dragon and a member of this forum, going faster only ends one way and it isn't any more fun after a point. 
 
I know I am preaching to the choir on this forum, but without a doubt the best way to improve speed and safety margin is to become a better rider, through education and experience, along with the above mods.  If you haven't already, spend some time at California Superbike school or equivalent.  While riding their track-prepped S1000RR, you will become closely acquainted with the law of diminishing returns when you swing your leg over any VFR.  Nonetheless, I still ride one because speed isn't everything. 
 
I hope I didn't go too far off topic and you find your balance of cost and performance for your needs.
 
 

I entirely concur with you on the law of diminishing returns. That said, the VFR is quite enough entertainment for me at the moment. My philosophy regarding tires is that I prefer those tires that are most likely to keep me upright in all reasonable riding conditions--they need to have good wet/dry traction, good temperature range, and strong adhesion for braking and cornering. Brakes should be as capable as possible; I've little tolerance for poor stoppers. Good suspension tuning aids the driver in maintaining control by maintaining good tire/road contact, decreasing driver fatigue and decreasing disruption of the drivers control. Finally, education and psychomotor practice are essential to risk mitigation. I have a set of Dunlop RoadSmart IIIs set aside and paid for to replace the 6- and 8-year-old Qualifier and Q2 currently on the VFR. This weekend I'll take my first Total Control course; later this summer I'll spend a day at the Milwaukee Mile practicing high-speed handing, emergency stops, etc. In order to be prepared for the inevitable crises I'll encounter in cageland. I've tons of good reading to do on bike handing and driving skills. I just ordered a Hit-Air airbag vest to supplement my leather and body armor. A set of rimless prescription sunglasses is on my shortlist, in order to cut down on blind spots my current shades create. And I'll spend plenty of time on my VFR learning just what she does well, what she does poorly, and what she does superbly.


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On 5/21/2017 at 0:59 AM, MsRN98 said:

I feel a plan coming together, with CBR600 F4i forks, 6th-Gen clamps and bars (I assume these run essentially the same geometry as the 5th-Gen?). Not sure if I can easily run 600RR brakes; if not, F4i brakes/MC will do. I Iike the idea of the CBR250R rear MC and double banjo bolt to the stock caliper. That leaves sourcing new brake lines and a way of mounting the front fender, and eventually the rear shock.


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This is what I did.  I have F4i forks, 6th Gen triple clamps, de-linked and repurposed the SS brake lines that came on my used bike.  I had to buy an F4i front fender -- repainted to match.  I also re-shimmed the fork internals (F4i) to a stack similar to one used by a dude on one of the SanFrancisco bike forums.  I have an Ohlins out back so I'm good there.  I have the F4i Front and Rear MC for braking duties and just re-used my front wheel.  I shimmed the calipers to center them on the rotors, but they even work OK without shimming.  It is probably the most straight forward way to get 43mm forks on the front end of a 5th Gen.  The only thing I might do differently is drop in Traxxion AK-20's in the front forks...

 

Matt

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16 hours ago, MsRN98 said:


There's nothing dumber than a deer in rut. Even a man in rut has something going on upstairs.


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Well most of us anyway.

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Well most of us anyway.

Correction--Men without beer goggles...can't count the number of times I've driven up on a ? in broad daylight, and the silly thing stands there trying to figure out what kind of doe I am...
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4 hours ago, zupatun said:

This is what I did.  I have F4i forks, 6th Gen triple clamps, de-linked and repurposed the SS brake lines that came on my used bike.  I had to buy an F4i front fender -- repainted to match.  I also re-shimmed the fork internals (F4i) to a stack similar to one used by a dude on one of the SanFrancisco bike forums.  I have an Ohlins out back so I'm good there.  I have the F4i Front and Rear MC for braking duties and just re-used my front wheel.  I shimmed the calipers to center them on the rotors, but they even work OK without shimming.  It is probably the most straight forward way to get 43mm forks on the front end of a 5th Gen.  The only thing I might do differently is drop in Traxxion AK-20's in the front forks...

 

Matt

 

Matt - which front and rear calipers did you end up using on your final delink?

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600F4i fender on 600F4i forks??? That will fit just like Mr Honda intended. The fork leg spacing side to side on the 600F4i is exactly the same as the 6G.   I actually have 600F4i fender fitted right now (not needed, just more random eBay shopping when bored...).

 

 

That brings up another question--the F4i forks (mint--2K miles on them) arrived today along with the lower triple and headset bearings. Has anyone tried using the F4i steerer and lower triple in a 5G or 6G VFR? 

Also, 600RR MC arrived today. Waiting on 600RR calipers and 250RR rear MC. That leaves 6G triple, clip-ons, lines, fender and new brake lever (ASV). Getting excited!

 

 

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The bearings on nearly all Hondas are interchangeable, so that won't be an issue. Not so sure about the offset of the 600 forks compared to that of the 5G/6G, maybe suck it and see?

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The bearings on nearly all Hondas are interchangeable, so that won't be an issue. Not so sure about the offset of the 600 forks compared to that of the 5G/6G, maybe suck it and see?

Ahhh...I hadn't even thought about offset--good point! I'll do some measuring...

 

 

I did a little bit of window shopping on EBay--looks like there's a good 1.5-2 cm of additional offset on the VFR versus the CBR. Good eye, Terry!

 

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In truth I cheated and used a calculator on Tony Foale's website which will calculate the offset given some nominal rake, trail and tyre radius numbers. The 600 is significantly different, but the 5G and 6G are nearly the same.

 

Got out and had a good blast on my toy today, truly an amazing handler and much better than me; as it should be.

 

 

IMG_3490.JPG

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Glad to hear people are out and riding their VFRs Terry.

 

MsRN98, go sixth gen top and bottom triples. Even good ones are inexpensive, and them you don't have to worry about matching top and bottom or doing any of that highfalutin' math to get the geometry correct. Where did you find straight F4i forks with only 2000 miles on them? [Great find]

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If you get 6G triples you may find that the steering lock bolt won't mate with the sockets on the headstock; for whatever reason the 5G ignition in the 6G triples sits too high and will need a few washers inserted to move the lock down a little. 

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Glad to hear people are out and riding their VFRs Terry.
 
MsRN98, go sixth gen top and bottom triples. Even good ones are inexpensive, and them you don't have to worry about matching top and bottom or doing any of that highfalutin' math to get the geometry correct. Where did you find straight F4i forks with only 2000 miles on them? [Great find]

I found them on Fleabay--they look better in person than in the pic!

e8fccd71df24a3d3c6a97702b5d1c167.png

I've purchased top & bottom 6G triples; remaining needs include a new ASV lever (I have the 600RR MC), new fender and new lines--plus the new internals for the F4i forks.


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If you get 6G triples you may find that the steering lock bolt won't mate with the sockets on the headstock; for whatever reason the 5G ignition in the 6G triples sits too high and will need a few washers inserted to move the lock down a little. 

Thanks for the tip, Terry!


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On 5/22/2017 at 6:54 PM, sfdownhill said:

 

Matt - which front and rear calipers did you end up using on your final delink?

F4i ones on the front and the stock caliper on the rear.  I used F4i master on front and rear...

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On 5/26/2017 at 11:34 PM, Terry said:

The bearings on nearly all Hondas are interchangeable, so that won't be an issue. Not so sure about the offset of the 600 forks compared to that of the 5G/6G, maybe suck it and see?

 

I think the F4i offset is 32.5mm vs. 40mm on the 5th/6th gens.  Not ideal, but could be worse.

 

Ciao,

 

 

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On 6/1/2017 at 9:09 PM, MsRN98 said:

Question--does anyone have a pair of original 6th-Gen clip-ons they'd care to part with?


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Yes, how does $100 shipped sound (assuming you are in the US)?  PM me if interested.

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I am in the middle of a fork seal job one side disassembled with ease not so much for the other as I was stretching and doing the back and forth popping motion a finally separated but I noticed that the shock holder bushing did not come out with the shock so now as I start to reassemble putting the shock down into the holder with the bottom shock bushing on I can't get it down in a shock holder with the bushing still on how do I take the shock holder bushing out seems to be frozen or stuck not allowing my shock to go back in

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Are you referring to the aluminium oil lock piece that (normally) just slips onto the end of the damper? If you have the damper bolt out, there is nothing holding that in place aside from old oil or any threadlock that might have been used. With the fork disassembled you might be able to knock it loose with a broom handle or similar. 

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On 5/18/2017 at 3:33 PM, MadScientist said:

I haven't seen any yellow 5th gens on the streets of Fitchburg lately, a red 6th a few days ago tho...

 

I've got Jamie's internals, Superhawk lowers, and 929/954 calipers (4 piston, the superhawk only has 2 piston and it's a straight swap).  Out back I'm running a Nitron 3-way.  The setup is absolutely brilliant and I doubt I could use much more performance on the roads around WI.

 

If your uppers are shot, the RC51 choice is yours since you are basically buying new forks.  I don't really like servicing USD forks, so they weren't really on the table.  However, I have no plans to track the VFR.

Hi,

With the SH lowers and 929/954 calipers, am I correct in assuming I can still use my 5th rotors and master cylinder?

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You definitely can use the rotors/wheel/axle/axle spacers from the 5G in the SH lowers.

You need to make up an adapter to mount the 5G fender to the SH forks.

You need to file a little off the lower caliper mounts on the SH leg to clear the 929/954 calipers.

You need to shim the 929/954 calipers 3mm off the caliper mount to centre the caliper on the 5G disc. I used 2 x 1.5mm thick washers and superglued them to the leg.

I would NOT suggest using the 5G master with the 929/954 calipers. It is a very small diameter (12.7mm) and so will have a very high mechanical advantage over the pistons in the caliper; that means squishy feel and very grabby. YMMV but I wouldn't go there. 

 

The stock 954 master is 17.46mm diameter, and you can find a visually matching integrated master of that diameter on a CBR600RR 03 (to 06 I think).

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