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5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

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Yep that it was,   cut the Staintune mid pipe, cut the slip on mid pipe from the 2Bro,  added new 2" tubing, bingo.   Ya know, I had planned to polish this up, But Gabe did such a really  fine job, one has to look close to find the welds, and the transition is behind the passenger foot peg hanger so you can't really see the difference at first,  IDK I kinda like it the way it is.. we'll see.

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Here ya go,   a couple close ups ;)

 

DSCF0999_zpsfogxis6l.jpg

 

DSCF1002_zpsu2dzll6a.jpg 

 

and an extra for the fun of it.

 

DSCF1003_zpsm5cuygfw.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Your Gabe is a welding wizard-some of the nicest work I've ever seen. I'd leave it the way it is-nice contrast.

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This is coming along beautifully. Cant wait to see some dyno action tomorrow!

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Yea,  I'm pretty stoked to get the Viffer on the Dyno too. ;)   That being said, yesterdays outing was sorta enlightening, if this 2Bro & Piper set up doesn't make more HPs,  It surely makes the Viffe want to Rev right now.  Very fluid to the throttle response. Not sure about my Butt dyno,  but the way it pulled through 3rd 4th, & 5th makes me smile,  oh lordy, does she go. 

 

Not that this has anything to do with the header build, on the De- link, Wow!  This should be a first of to happen right there with suspension fixes IMO.   OMG does this Viffer stop now. Good thing too,  now that its got more get up and go. huh ;)

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Do you think that you have unleashed all of the factory power? You could be in the history books!  I knew somebody would find the magic. :goofy:

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We will see about that tomorrow, but since there's a couple non factory up grades, I can't really call it unleashing the factory power can I?    ;)

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On Our way to the Dyno...

DSCF0998.JPG

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place your bets, some guesses from my side :+):

115-118bhp if you cant play with the advance, with short tuning run

118-122bhp if you can play with advance, and full tuning spectrum with 3-5h of tuning

122bhp+ if you can take the time to individually map each cilinder since they left back is 4% worse performing.

 

gogo ! veeeery curious

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Yeah he isn't using a Rapid bike, so tuning will be the normal, single fuel map. No ignition timing or individual cylinder tuning will be done...

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But adding 6-10 hp on top of his previous dyno should be within reason. I remember his last Dyno run being very cold, in the 40s or 50s, so that might count against this run (even though all runs will be converted to std conditions), so I am going with 112+6= 118whp.

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Well Well,  not actually the first try out come I was looking for,  still doesn't explain how well the Viffer purrs. Still.  there's room for figuring out whats what.  one item of interests is the Piper cross air filter.  not that i'm thinking it's the total reason When Mike heard me say that I also added a new air filter he shook his head. It almost makes sense that its got a hold of the air wanting in.  so the next round,  next week hopefully,  I'll re install the KN and do a do over. I ain't done yet.

 

Green is before anything.  Blue is the 2bros and piper.  Red is the tune done last year with the stock header and KN.  Go figure huh 

 

DSCF1024_zpsqgvynzra.jpg

 

 

a video for your curiosity

 

 

 

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Here's the fuel map for those interested.

 

DSCF1025_zpsqhcdo5b1.jpg

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You should try a DIY air filter.  I'm pretty sure Mohawk or sa1713 pioneered this technique, but I'm having trouble locating the post.  Briefly, the stock filter backing plastic is used with the paper element cut out.  Ideally the hole is cut to the size of the largest K&N generic filter that will fit inside the backing plastic.  I wanted to find the thread, since it notes what K&N model fits best. 

 

It's known that the stock air filter has a much larger area than the K&N.  I believe K&N themselves have said that the replacement filter for the VFR is smaller in area, but flows more than stock paper.  This leads to roughly the same total airflow as stock.  As below from the gallery of Serenity_VFR:

gallery_7252_5239_33484.jpg

 

 

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Thanks,  funny you bring this up.  I'm looking all over the inter net for what i thought was a newer style KN,  but it's a knock off with a larger surface area.  IDK what goes into making a filter do what it does. but that idea is a good one. Might just have to try this on for size. I also have an extra air box to play with too. First I'll give the KN another chance but something tells me it won't help,  if much,   it's all trial and error now.  Just hard to believe the results, especially after what Mike saw the results where,  everything points to better performance, smh. This wasn't his first rodeo,  so if he's surprised there's something a miss.     

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I performed simulation and testing of HVAC systems once upon a time (google DARPA Immune Building).  Needless to say, there is no free lunch with air filters, even with fancy engineered synthetic fiber media.  At the scale of a motorcycle or automotive air filter, there is very little gain to be had as far as flowrate vs pressure drop by switching materials at a constant particle removal efficiency.  The only ways to make real flow gains are to a) increase filter area, b) increase pore size, c) increase the pressure across filter (pressurize unfiltered side).

 

So we are limited on filter area by the airbox itself.  Ideally, we would want to maximize the filter area within our constrained space.  A foam filter looks like it does this because it covers the whole opening, but this is false.  Pleated filters may appear to be smaller, but once you flatten out the pleats, the area can be much larger.  In order to flow more air with foam of less area, we must then make the pore size and porosity much higher wider and higher, but this kills the particle removal properties... so we add oil and multi-stage filtration to increase our capture efficiency and reduce the thickness of "fine" filtration which we can't afford to block with large particles.  This isn't free either though, we have to choose between clogging up every ride, or letting some particulate through. 

 

You can make design decisions to let particles smaller than a certain size through, and this is how gains are often realized with oiled cotton or engineered synthetics.  I didn't work on filtration for internal combustion engines, so I don't really know the design specifics but there is often (but not always) some sacrifice in filtration efficiency with a new filter because you want it to have a reasonable service life.

 

I just realized this is turning into an air filtration treatise, so I'm just going to post it.  But I'll get to the point real quick below

Dry Paper/Synthetic Fiber - Best choice for engine longevity, reasonable flow, and particulate capacity

Oiled Cotton/Synthetic - Sacrifices allowing some smaller particles in = (marginally?) decreased engine longevity, increased flowrate, theoretically higher total holding capacity

Foam - Major sacrifices in filtration efficiency because construction demands lower total area, flowrate? depending on pore size and porosity, lower total area = lower holding capacity

 

On racing machines that are rebuilt frequently and have fresh filters before every race, foam has some performance benefits.  If the foam is designed with the level of protection required by a daily driver, then you will be lucky to flow as much as stock even with reduced filtration efficiency.  For a daily rider, this would be my last choice.

 

Ideally I would have a dry, pleated, engineered synthetic fiber behind a foam pre-filter.  The foam would protect the expensive synthetic from large and macroscopic particles but would need to be washed monthly, allowing the much finer filter to have a reasonable service life.  I don't know of any filters like this on the market though.

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Nice info right there

Whatever you do with filtration, there is not amounts of power hidden away due to OEM paper filters. The big aftermarket brands try to create this illusion.

But hey, if the 0.4 hp hunt is on, it's on!


Sent fra min SM-N910F via Tapatalk

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Found this of an interesting read..   your thoughts? 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, RVFR said:

Found this of an interesting read..   your thoughts? 

 

 

Going for even more topend?

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Well something to note here with Mohawks 5th gen,  info on his avatar looks to be he has a 2000 version, which we know all ready has the smaller primary's, to the 98-99, hence why with adding the 2Bro he did better,  I wonder what would be the results had he had a 98-99 header?  other wise the dyno at this time in his up grades compared to what I have ain't all that bad  Eh.  Just did better with the stock header  SMH go figure,  still what MadSc writes with foam vs pleated filter media,  this may shed some light,  after a look over of the fueling I think I'm running a tad rich. would the KN automatically fix this ?   I'm waiting on a contact at EBR to confirm my suspicion.     

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47 minutes ago, RVFR said:

Well something to note here with Mohawks 5th gen,  info on his avatar looks to be he has a 2000 version, which we know all ready has the smaller primary's, to the 98-99, hence why with adding the 2Bro he did better,  I wonder what would be the results had he had a 98-99 header?  other wise the dyno at this time in his up grades compared to what I have ain't all that bad  Eh.  Just did better with the stock header  SMH go figure,  still what MadSc writes with foam vs pleated filter media,  this may shed some light,  after a look over of the fueling I think I'm running a tad rich. would the KN automatically fix this ?   I'm waiting on a contact at EBR to confirm my suspicion.     

If the K&N actually does flow more air than the Piper Cross, then technically it should lean things out due to more air but I'm not going to pretend I know anything about airflow and exhaust. That being said, Honda did implement the flapper valve to create different airflow/pressure for a reason. I assume that the flapper/snorkel mod were performed before the initial dyno run, yes? If it wasn't, and was done prior to this last run, maybe this also contributed to the difference in numbers.

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Not sure Mohawk's current primary setup can be compared, I know he's got a build thread with various dyno graphs after certain mods. 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure that the pipercross flows more or less air than the stock/K&N replacement.  Depends on the specifics of the filter material, I'm just saying that to flow as much or more than stock with a foam filter, there would have to be compromises made that I wouldn't make on a daily driven street bike.  I don't have a flow bench or filtration box at my disposal any more; I already know how these tests can be manipulated to show things manufacturers want to advertise and comparing "specs" between manufacturers is almost impossible when they don't publish all the testing variables.  For example:

 

"High dust capacity

Our filters have undergone independant MIRA testing and results showed Pipercross foam has the ability to hold more than twice the dust particles of that held by cotton-gauze filters, without affecting the airflow efficiency."

 

Twice in what regard?  Filters of the same area or filters of the same weight.  If weight, is that with or without oil?  What size dust particles?  How much was the cotton gauze airflow efficiency affected?  See what I mean.  Multi stage filtration like that used by Pipercross will be able to handle larger particles better than single stage paper or cotton, but are these the particles that are most common in an on-road vehicle filter?  Are these the particles responsible for the most engine wear?  I can ask questions all day because of the lack of transparency.

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20 hours ago, RVFR said:

Thanks,  funny you bring this up.  I'm looking all over the inter net for what i thought was a newer style KN,  but it's a knock off with a larger surface area.  IDK what goes into making a filter do what it does. but that idea is a good one. Might just have to try this on for size. I also have an extra air box to play with too. First I'll give the KN another chance but something tells me it won't help,  if much,   it's all trial and error now.  Just hard to believe the results, especially after what Mike saw the results where,  everything points to better performance, smh. This wasn't his first rodeo,  so if he's surprised there's something a miss.     

 

 I have one of those larger surface area K&N's. I read on the forums all about how the K&N was a lousy filter with a small surface area. Knowing the PO installed a K&N I went and ordered a Pipercross. 

When I lifted the tank to take a gander I saw this:
TJ8mJC3.jpg

Not the tiny surface area K&N I was expecting. The pipercross sits on the shelf. I was gonna install it but now after seeing your dyno.....hmmmmm

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