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5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

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12 hours ago, BiKenG said:

 

You do realise it will not be a VFR. It'll be a track weapon. I'd like them to produce a naked version, but I doubt they will. Either way, it won't be a VFR.

 

Naked versions of the Norton and Ducati V4s are intended and will be very interesting. There's always the Aprilia. Why not that? It's a very good bike. None of them VFRs though. Either track focussed or naked. If you want a bigger VFR, you'll be disappointed.

 

Hang on, there's already a big VFR. Without a doubt, brilliant bike. I like mine naked though 🙂

 

Hate to derail things here, but MHO is the new Duc SS is the VFR that we've all wanted.

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On 5/1/2018 at 10:40 AM, keef said:

Ive just spoken to van demon exhausts here in sydney. Well, greater sydney since they are a couple hours from me.

They currently make systems for things like the kwaka H2.

They can make ones for us in stainless or ti.

Needs to have at least 20 orders to justify the labour to make the jig.

I have an OEM system hanging on the wall they can have to make the jig.

 

Are people still serious about making it happen?

 

 

 

 

On 5/1/2018 at 10:40 AM, keef said:

 

Mate, if they can make them - depending on the price not being TOO outlandish - I'll take a set. For once, I'm in a reasonable place (geographically speaking) to take full advantage, being "only" 3 hours down the road from them... :)

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6 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

....It's good that they'll consider a run of 20 headers for our VFRs. Keep us posted as to progress with them. There have been issues in the past with multiple vfrd members contacting the same supplier, so it will be best if you remain the single point of contact.

 

+1

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3 hours ago, KevCarver said:

Hate to derail things here, but MHO is the new Duc SS is the VFR that we've all wanted.


I rode a VFR1200,  my 2014 VFR800 and a demo Duc SS  the same day.

3 very different bikes. 

 

the duc is NOT a VFR replacement.  it isn't.  However!

 

it's light,  it feels like a hooligan ride when that twin lights up in first and it's always trying to lift the front,  but it's NOT faster than a VFR.  Certainly not a well tuned one either.  There's an enormous timing cut in the bottom end of the rev band that makes a 1000CC Vtwin feel gutless around town,  god knows why they would do that...  it kinda ruined the around-town riding I did in my opinion and I'd be looking to defeat that timing cut immediately on delivery of the bike.  It's super planted though,  on the highway it absolutely gets it.  Get it halfway to redline and it's a thoroughbred.  Being cheaper than a new VFR,  and cheaper than supersport 6's,  I would have been hard pressed to pass it up honestly if I didn't catch the 2014 VFR800DLX for $7k wave of last year.  🤨

The VFR 1200 is a MONSTER above 4k rpms.  It doesn't ride noticably different from an 800 around town and on ramps ect,  but that engine is something else.  There's a similar timing cut down low like the Duc,  but instead of being gutless it feels like the 800 til it feeds timing back into the engine around 5k or so. There are over the counter timing retard eliminators for the bike,  and the dyno graphed results are nothing short of comical. 

VFR1200-stock-vs-Z-Bomb-2nd-L.jpg

The mid RPM ramp up as stock makes your hair stand up on the back of your neck. 

Supremely stable. the Seat,  is TO DIE FOR on this thing.  There's just a little bit of gel and a nice saddle position,  it's night and day better than a stock 800's seat.  Any of them.  😌

And the new 800 is a lot like a cross between the 5th and 6th gen.  Except for the horn/turn signal placement riding it is like shaking hands with an old friend who's somehow gotten into better shape,  lost a few pounds, and gotten a good facelift since you last saw them.  Nearly everything perceptable about the new 800 is a lovely reminder of the old,  or is noticably better.  

Except the top-end pull.   😐
And the new header shape changing the sound of the V4  😐

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23 hours ago, BiKenG said:

 

You do realise it will not be a VFR. It'll be a track weapon. I'd like them to produce a naked version, but I doubt they will. Either way, it won't be a VFR.

 

Naked versions of the Norton and Ducati V4s are intended and will be very interesting. There's always the Aprilia. Why not that? It's a very good bike. None of them VFRs though. Either track focussed or naked. If you want a bigger VFR, you'll be disappointed.

 

Hang on, there's already a big VFR. Without a doubt, brilliant bike. I like mine naked though 🙂

 

Yeah I'll probs be trading the cbr1k, which I quite like. 

I was seriously considering an Aprilia tuano, had a test ride lined up. Local  distributor nationally (PS) had only 1 tuano factory in their warehouse at the time (alarm bells).

Went down for the test ride on Saturday morning. "Sorry recall on Brembo brakes, no test ride." Thanks for calling 😠. "While you're here we will price up your trade in." ........ half hour later still waiting. 

F*&k this & f*&k your sh1t service.

So im waiting to see what honda can do

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The Tuono 1100 is I think a cracking bike, but to be honest, any company that simply shuts down for the summer holidays (and to hell with customer service, parts etc) is suspect in my books.

 

I sure love the idea of a new RVF1000, but I actually think the Ducati or Norton V4s will be better road bikes with their larger capacity and none of them can possibly allow me to go any faster as that's governed entirely by speed limits and nothing to do with the bike's performance.

 

I've set myself a new rule. No more bikes that require tax and MOT. So apart from the VFRs, it's 40 year old classics for me. But there's a lot of interesting Hondas in that bracket now 🙂

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1 hour ago, Voided76 said:

Back on track!

What's the word from Black Widow Exhaust on doing a full on pipe?

 

The "word" is that they are working/planning on offering a race style exhaust for VFR's 1990-2009. I haven't heard anything since the email I posted about in March, but the ETA at that point was July-August at the earliest, and we all know how this goes. To save you some searching here it is again:

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

HI Nathan,

I can confirm that we have started the R&D on developing an upgraded exhaust for the 1990-1993 and 1994-1997 VFR750 models, we are also upgrading the VFR800 and the VFR800 Vtec.
They will all accept the original silencer/muffler or and that fits the original downpipes/collector.
They will be lighter with improved internal gas flow.
I do not expect to have anything ready for at least 4-6 months, please watch our Facebook page as we will announce any new releases there.
 
Kindest regards
Lincoln
 
Black Widow Exhausts Ltd
8 High Barns, Roxton, Bedfordshire MK44 3ET
Tel: +44 (0) 1234 871009

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

A few others have mentioned that their newer race style exhuasts look to be good quality and are getting some good press. A bit of searching or scrolling their FB page should land you on some pictures/articles/etc. 

 

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adkfinn, thanks for monitoring Black Widow's intentions.

 

Here's a production exhaust question:

Would a single set of performance headers work for both 5th and 6th gen VFR800s? It would be much easier to talk a manufacturer into producing a single system for 1998-2013 VFR800s than to require the development of two exhaust systems.

 

The root of my question stems from user Hammerdrill and I recently fitting a set of 98/99 catless headers to his 2002 6th gen. We installed a Power Commander V and the PCV's O2 sensor bypass resistors, running through a gutted stock 6th gen exhaust and using a PCV map straight from Dynojet's website. His bike runs like a raped date.

 

It's clear that the 6th gen front primaries cross over before meeting the secondaries, but I've done a bit of research and have not found a clear reason for the crossover. Duc2V4 suggests that it might be because of a change in firing order or to improve gas flow for the 6th gen's catalytic converter. I also do not know if a single option O2 sensor placement could work for both 5th and 6th gens. With a Power Commander and O2 bypass resistors, this is not an issue, but for people running stock ECUs or Rapidbike tuning modules, O2 sensors and their placement are a factor.

 

Looking forward to learning what some of the more experienced here can observe about the viability of a single header sufficing for both 5th and 6th gen VFRs.

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25 minutes ago, sfdownhill said:

adkfinn, thanks for monitoring Black Widow's intentions.

 

Here's a production exhaust question:

Would a single set of performance headers work for both 5th and 6th gen VFR800s? It would be much easier to talk a manufacturer into producing a single system for 1998-2013 VFR800s than to require the development of two exhaust systems.

 

The root of my question stems from user Hammerdrill and I recently fitting a set of 98/99 catless headers to his 2002 6th gen. We installed a Power Commander V and the PCV's O2 sensor bypass resistors, running through a gutted stock 6th gen exhaust and using a PCV map straight from Dynojet's website. His bike runs like a raped date.

 

It's clear that the 6th gen front primaries cross over before meeting the secondaries, but I've done a bit of research and have not found a clear reason for the crossover. Duc2V4 suggests that it might be because of a change in firing order or to improve gas flow for the 6th gen's catalytic converter. I also do not know if a single option O2 sensor placement could work for both 5th and 6th gens. With a Power Commander and O2 bypass resistors, this is not an issue, but for people running stock ECUs or Rapidbike tuning modules, O2 sensors and their placement are a factor.

 

Looking forward to learning what some of the more experienced here can observe about the viability of a single header sufficing for both 5th and 6th gen VFRs.

The thought process has merit.

 

I seem to recall someone here who was talking to one of the exhaust places mentioning that they'd have to do 2 different types; one for each Gen? Maybe that was specifically for the crossover? Maybe they were over-complicating things? Are you saying the 5th Gen headers bolt straight up to a stock 6th gen link pipe? Interesting.

 

As for the bike now running better via seat of the pants measure, it's a shame you guys didn't do before and after dynos to see definitively how much of a difference the catless headers make, versus the stock ones.

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6 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

adkfinn, thanks for monitoring Black Widow's intentions.

 

Here's a production exhaust question:

Would a single set of performance headers work for both 5th and 6th gen VFR800s? It would be much easier to talk a manufacturer into producing a single system for 1998-2013 VFR800s than to require the development of two exhaust systems.

 

The root of my question stems from user Hammerdrill and I recently fitting a set of 98/99 catless headers to his 2002 6th gen. We installed a Power Commander V and the PCV's O2 sensor bypass resistors, running through a gutted stock 6th gen exhaust and using a PCV map straight from Dynojet's website. His bike runs like a raped date.

 

It's clear that the 6th gen front primaries cross over before meeting the secondaries, but I've done a bit of research and have not found a clear reason for the crossover. Duc2V4 suggests that it might be because of a change in firing order or to improve gas flow for the 6th gen's catalytic converter. I also do not know if a single option O2 sensor placement could work for both 5th and 6th gens. With a Power Commander and O2 bypass resistors, this is not an issue, but for people running stock ECUs or Rapidbike tuning modules, O2 sensors and their placement are a factor.

 

Looking forward to learning what some of the more experienced here can observe about the viability of a single header sufficing for both 5th and 6th gen VFRs.

Crossover started in 2000, and I've seen it on a Euro model from '98 or '99 that also had a Cat/Con. My best uneducated guess is the Cat. Better flow as you suggested, or something else. Also in 2000 is when it changed to stainless from mild steel. Probably due to the high heat generated by the Cat.

 

A while ago I was messing with a Two Bros 5th Gen set that was in need of repairs. I was trying to get it to fit a 6th Gen, but it didn't bolt up. It wasn't my bike or exhaust, btw. The exhaust stud distance was different, and we determined that the stock 5th that everyone successfully swapped onto 6th Gens has slotted holes while the Two Bros had round holes that were slightly too narrow. 

Can anyone else confirm that the exhaust studs are different? The ports are the same, and the headers occupy the same physical space, but there is that slight hiccup I don't think I've seen anyone else comment on, but should be easily rectified by using slotted holes.

I don't currently have any unmounted headers in my garage, or a 6th Gen engine. So I can't compare at the moment. 

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6 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

It's clear that the 6th gen front primaries cross over before meeting the secondaries, but I've done a bit of research and have not found a clear reason for the crossover. Duc2V4 suggests that it might be because of a change in firing order or to improve gas flow for the 6th gen's catalytic converter. I also do not know if a single option O2 sensor placement could work for both 5th and 6th gens. With a Power Commander and O2 bypass resistors, this is not an issue, but for people running stock ECUs or Rapidbike tuning modules, O2 sensors and their placement are a factor.

 

Looking forward to learning what some of the more experienced here can observe about the viability of a single header sufficing for both 5th and 6th gen VFRs.

 

OK so the cross over on the front pipes is a just a confusion caused by Honda messing with the rear pipes. On a 5th gen the #1 exhaust goes through the outer loop pipe by your right foot, on the 6th gen they realised that that made that primary pipe much longer than the rest, so they swapped it to the inside loop pipe, but that would have merged with the wrong front cylinder, so they had to add the crossover to the front pipes to keep the cylinder pairings the same for best flow. so basically its the same cylinder matching on the 2-1 headers as the 5th gen. But it is what causes the different vacuum settings on the 6th gen to the 5th. One 5th gen cylinder has a much lower vacuum setting (#4 IIRC) because of the exhaust flow. the 6th gen has equal balance, as in theory all the headers are very close to the same length.

 

On the exhaust manufacture, 5th+6th gen use the same basic exhaust layout, the only difference being the rear pipe connections & front cross over. I can't see it making much difference, as many people have put 98 pipes (or stainless copies) on their 6th gens with no issues. Be nice to know if they kept the 5th or 6th gen rear headers though !

 

On the O2 issue the stock ECU only issues any error warning if BOTH narrow band sensors lose their HEATING line voltage. You only need ONE O2 eliminator to avoid this, does not matter which as the base map has different setting for front & rear & all fuel modules add a +/-% to the injection duty cycle. So if #1 has say 55 & #2 has 50 as stock, then adding 10% more via PC/RB/Bazzaz etc only corrects the totals, so #1 now has 65 & #2 has 60. The AFR differences are still maintained & the closed loop cycle only does the same thing as a PC, by trimming the fuel delivery by a small amount whilst the engine is running in steady state because the narrow band sensor only sends a Rich or lean signal NOT an AFR like a wide band sensor.  So if it says RICH, the ECU reduces the injector cycle a bit, until it says LEAN, then increases a bit & continues to chase that around the ideal AFR.

 

If you use a wide band sensor for a PCV or Rapid Bike fueling module, then I just tapped into the narrow band sensors power supply via the stock connectors so that BOTH feed power to my wideband sensor, thus no need for O2 eliminators nor additional power cables to the wideband sensor !  NOTE;- You must USE BOTH power feeds for a wideband sensor, as they draw twice the power of a narrow band sensor & may melt a single feed !

Neat & avoids Fi fault codes.  But please NOTE the ECU still logs a narrow band sensor failure as its never receives a signal from it, but that is a secondary fault code, so does NOT activate the Fi warning light !  Only primary fault codes do.

 

 

 

YMMV 🙂

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1 hour ago, KevCarver said:

A while ago I was messing with a Two Bros 5th Gen set that was in need of repairs. I was trying to get it to fit a 6th Gen, but it didn't bolt up. It wasn't my bike or exhaust, btw. The exhaust stud distance was different, and we determined that the stock 5th that everyone successfully swapped onto 6th Gens has slotted holes while the Two Bros had round holes that were slightly too narrow. 

Can anyone else confirm that the exhaust studs are different? The ports are the same, and the headers occupy the same physical space, but there is that slight hiccup I don't think I've seen anyone else comment on, but should be easily rectified by using slotted holes.

I don't currently have any unmounted headers in my garage, or a 6th Gen engine. So I can't compare at the moment. 

 

 

I put a two brothers header on my 6th gen and I didn't have any of those issues.

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OML...  Wow   good to read folks here are still in the wth is going on. Good to know Mohawk on the washers,  I just turned some off on the lathe,  though they where soft brass not copper that and they need to be sorta non crush able as that's just asking for trouble IMO.  On the home front here, Gabe has now has had a slight change of whats important now that his latest  business partner flew the coop. He still has it at needing 10 folks for him to jump on it,  and at a grand a piece that's a tall order  for me to take on considering.   That and the way I understand it as now there's more 6thgen folks interested than 5th gen owners which is what I started with  ;) but know the header fits more a question about what will fit afterwards.    Good to hear those folks out of Sidney could jump up to the plate, but like me, sounds like they need 20 to get on board.  which begs the question will it pan out?  Knowing all to well it's a money game. 

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Well, if Gabe is back on board, then that's likely our best bet. You've already contributed a lot to header development, and picking up from where we left off seems like the best idea. Perhaps we should compile an updated list of everyone who's in?

 

However, I believe one of the obstacles was that we were contributing to buying a header whose performance was unknown. Having just one proof of concept with some comparison dynos would speed up progress a lot. My guess is things would go 100% smoother after we have some photos and data.

 

 

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but the flip side of that is, no manufacturer wants to outlay the time and money to make just one.

Van demon said 20, as they have about 10K of labour/tooling costs to cover.  If they know they'll sell 20, that's worth it. 20 deposits would make sense, but I haven't asked that question.

spending 10K to make 1K is kinda pointless from a business perspective.

 

Points from my point of view-

 even slightly better performance, but even less weight (ti?) would be pretty bloody good.

vandemon prices in aus dollars, people.

performance exhaust with centre stand seems counter intuitive. Performance takes precedence for me.

We should make sure we merge the front two together, and the back two so its better for rapid bike. Because I have one.

Stock outlet location so any aftermarket can works, even though VD make cans too. and my MT09 akra would need to be modded again.

I wont spend $1000US on a stainless exhaust system. I would for a Ti system, though.

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Well, we have to start somewhere! At the very least, we need at least 10 people who are in or we're getting nothing. If we get 20 or more, then that will open up more possibilities. I want a header, so I'm in!

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15 hours ago, KevCarver said:

Crossover started in 2000, and I've seen it on a Euro model from '98 or '99 that also had a Cat/Con. My best uneducated guess is the Cat. Better flow as you suggested, or something else. Also in 2000 is when it changed to stainless from mild steel. Probably due to the high heat generated by the Cat.

 

A while ago I was messing with a Two Bros 5th Gen set that was in need of repairs. I was trying to get it to fit a 6th Gen, but it didn't bolt up. It wasn't my bike or exhaust, btw. The exhaust stud distance was different, and we determined that the stock 5th that everyone successfully swapped onto 6th Gens has slotted holes while the Two Bros had round holes that were slightly too narrow. 

Can anyone else confirm that the exhaust studs are different? The ports are the same, and the headers occupy the same physical space, but there is that slight hiccup I don't think I've seen anyone else comment on, but should be easily rectified by using slotted holes.

I don't currently have any unmounted headers in my garage, or a 6th Gen engine. So I can't compare at the moment. 

Spinning flanges  were mentioned  at some stage to account for the slight differences between models iirc

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2 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

KevCarver asked "Can anyone else confirm that the exhaust studs are different?"

Answer - CandyRed bolted up TBR headers to his 6th gen, and the 98/99 headers we bolted to a 6th gen had round-not-slotted holes - they went right onto the 6th gen's studs.

I'd still feel better if someone could give accurate measurements on the exhaust stud spacing between 5th and 6th gens. Those headers would not fit the 6th Gen I had in my garage at the time. I have a 5th Gen engine on the floor, so I couldn't fit them as a unit, but the removable rear pipes fit the studs on the rear. Maybe the tolerance on the 5th OEM flanges is loose enough to account for the difference? I don't know if they made a 6th Gen specific 2 Bros that CRRC46 used, or if it had larger holes for some reason.

Again, I didn't own either the 6th Gen or the TBR headers nor do I have them in my garage anymore.

I don't have quality, super accurate calipers, but I measured 55mm on the 5th Gen. It's 49mm inside, 61mm outside, 6mm stud to the best of my measuring abilities.

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7 hours ago, KevCarver said:

I'd still feel better if someone could give accurate measurements on the exhaust stud spacing between 5th and 6th gens. Those headers would not fit the 6th Gen I had in my garage at the time. I have a 5th Gen engine on the floor, so I couldn't fit them as a unit, but the removable rear pipes fit the studs on the rear. Maybe the tolerance on the 5th OEM flanges is loose enough to account for the difference? I don't know if they made a 6th Gen specific 2 Bros that CRRC46 used, or if it had larger holes for some reason.

Again, I didn't own either the 6th Gen or the TBR headers nor do I have them in my garage anymore.

I don't have quality, super accurate calipers, but I measured 55mm on the 5th Gen. It's 49mm inside, 61mm outside, 6mm stud to the best of my measuring abilities.

 

It certainly makes sense to pay close attention to getting stud spacing between 5th and 6th gens right.

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Great discussion.

 

Mohawk, your data dumps are always rich in valuable information and steeped in your extensive experience. Thanks for clearing up the reason for the primaries crossing over, and the functionality of the O2 sensors with OEM ECU vs PC/RB.

 

RVFR, I was bummed to find photobucket no longer hosts the photos you posted of your headers. Do the primaries of the TBR headers crossover like 6th gens?

 

It is my subjective opinion that the prototype should be built for smooth maximum torque and power curves from 6000rpm to 10000rpm, not max peak hp at redline.

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Just a note in what I know, is the 98-99 header fits 6th gen,  and since as noted the Two bros header fits the 6th even though it was made for a 5th. only thing here I ran into as I started all this using my 5th gen, then was lucky enough to land a Two bros,  prior it was all speculative. Back to the performance side of things on the 5th gen it's been figured out there is around a 5-8hp gain with a PC3 and a dyno tune involved,  Not so sure on what is what with out those, other than my stock base run was 108, with KN air filter and stainetune,  it was also 45 degrees in Feb,  and used chevron premium,   I was heading to get the best no matter what, so it made sense to get it dialed in. But there's a bigger part to this than numbers,  the way the VFR now runs is as SF said " Harmonized"  pulls smooth from just about any rpm  plus pulls to a full 12K plus with no hesitation. It's hard to put in words, but just transformed the VFR totally   so there's really not much in question if it's for a 5th gen.   Now the 6th gen, that's different you have 02s and a different engine VTEC 😉  then add in the exhaust outlet deal,  I don't have a 6th gen to monkey with or this wouldn't be a question,  but if it's any where near what the layout of the two bros gives the 5th gen,  then yea its good.  BUT $1000 Good?  Now as far as the header flange goes,  IMO since I haven't looked at a GSXR gasket, the tubing used is thin wall 36mm, the port casting on the 5th gen  is like 36.5mm The Two bros header just barely slipped in,  I had the factory copper donuts,  what happen is they are made for 32mm tubes, hence what happen here was they where sucked into the center of the 36mm tube, LOL that won't work, So I made new ones out of soft brass that are a flat washer type, so far with 1500+  miles with this set up, no issues. But thats another process to figure out for the 6th gen.  Any who,  thought I'd share.  

 

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Photo of said 2 bro header in place  just in case folks haven't or would like to see.

2bro.jpg

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I can take measurements of an 01 and an 09 this weekend of at least the front headers.

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Delkevic sells the cooper donuts by the mm. i used 2mm larger then OEM 5th gen donuts for the TwoBros headers. 

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