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5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

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20 hours ago, Voided76 said:

"Hello Michael,

 
funnily enough, we were discussing the option of re-developing the entire VFR750 and VFR800 range to our race spec tubing, ie bigger bore and light weight, spring fit etc just last week.
 
We agree that it maybe the time to revisit the VFR range, and give it a refresh.
 
All I can say at this stage is, we will not be doing any more in our old spec, but a higher spec has a high chance of being developed later this year, time permitting.
 
Best regards,
 
Black Widow Exhausts Ltd
8 High Barns, Roxton, Bedfordshire MK44 3ET

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk"
________________________________________________________________

"
Good Afternoon Gentlemen,

I see you already have the jigs for the RC46 header and can mass produce them.  Back in the early 2000's Erion racing and Two Brothers racing exhausts built an RC46 header that made between 5-8 extra horsepower by itself.  it wasn't vastly different from the original designs honda use but the primary inner diameters were much larger.  a 98 and probably your standard VFR Header utilize 33mm ID primaries.  the Vtec bikes use a catalyst and 31.5-32mm ID's in stainless.  Two brothers and Erion used 36,  and 38mm ID primaries respectively.  and Both achieved outstanding gains from 3k to redline.  No real suprize considering that's the specs of the RC45 the engine is based upon without respect to the different firing order.  I have at least a dozen gentlemen on the VFR discussion forums,  and perhaps half that more on the VFR World forums that are ready to buy at double what your company charges for their standard faire.

if your company can produce a race ready 36-38mm ID header for the RC46 with the same quality you put into your GSF650 header,  We're ready.

The consensus of gentlemen on the boards agreed on:
 

18 gauge 304 stainless steel with 1.5" tubing primaries, 1.63" tubing secondaries, 2.0" header collector discharge results in:

~35.6 mm ID primaries

~39 mm ID secondaries

~49mm ID header collector discharge


Can you help us?

Respectfully,
Michael Spence"

 

As much as I am not a fan of ebay headers, that would be a great option.

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7 hours ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

 

As much as I am not a fan of ebay headers, that would be a great option.

 

Consider me a +1 on this. Do you think that if we push a decent szied list of committed buyers at them they'd prioritize the work? Worth a shot, no? I would guess we'd still need a prototype to ogle and dyno results in order to get people to put down deposits... it that unrealistic? I know BW has a patchy history, would that keep people away even if they were willing to step up to the plate?

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I think it would work, but they would have to promise/ ensure higher quality, actual performance merges and provide a legit dyno before/after. Also they could not ask more than a $100 over their standard header, any more than that for an ebay brand header, would be ridiculous. 

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On 2/7/2018 at 8:22 AM, CandyRedRC46 said:

 

 

That has to be one of the most poorly designed collectors I have ever seen in my life. Why are people still buying these things?

Yeah, I kind of wondered about that picture, and thought maybe it was the angle of the shot, because that looks nasty.

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7 hours ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

I think it would work, but they would have to promise/ ensure higher quality, actual performance merges and provide a legit dyno before/after. Also they could not ask more than a $100 over their standard header, any more than that for an ebay brand header, would be ridiculous. 

 

If (and I suspect it's a big "if") they were to actually make a performance header, and "if" it produced decent gains (10Hp/extra torque), and "if" it was reasonably priced, I'd probably consider buying in. That said, having waded through this - and other - header threads that become very lengthy, but ultimately end up nowhere, I'm not holding my breath...

 

In saying that, for those a little more financially "constrained", perhaps look at the never ending delays in someone producing a viable, marketable product as an opportunity to save some $$/offload un-needed stuff (that "spare" kidney you have lying around, for example ;) ), so that when a decent product becomes available, we're all ready to jump in and stump up a critical mass of orders...

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On 10/31/2017 at 4:02 PM, ScottieDucati said:

I'm still in for a 5th gen setup, but no way is 100% upfront payment for goods yet to be produced going to fly. At most, a 50% payment is fair to cover material costs, etc.

 

I'm just confused, should I go to the kickstarter? Is there a more official way to get this together? I'm happy to pay materials costs and some labor up front, but damn well expect a) a spot in line and b) a general timeline of availability.

 

Giving someone a grand on a whim that it may or may not happen later is ridiculous... almost as bad as giving them $500! But some of us are crazy enough to do that, just need things setup in a transparent way.

 

I may be new here, but this isn't my first rodeo. We have gone all the way to Cosworth to get custom pistons made for our VFR400 race bikes, and I've done a group buy with Sil Moto (a bit over a decade ago now) for 851/888 SBK Spaghetti Exhaust systems.

Yes, I get needing the "commitment" to do a small production run, but no the risk shouldn't 100% be on the buyers. Any good shop will happily make such an arrangement as above to cover materials, and recoup labor (or partial labor) after they're made.

I’m interested as well, but would have to be along the lines of what Scottie says here.

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So.  I need someone to take point on this   (again)
Just like Tyga I'm facing down some real life stuff and I'm going to be gone until probably august.

I deploy in two weeks to the pacific with the US Navy.   ;)

 

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6 hours ago, Voided76 said:

So.  I need someone to take point on this   (again)
Just like Tyga I'm facing down some real life stuff and I'm going to be gone until probably august.

I deploy in two weeks to the pacific with the US Navy.   ;)

 

 I am happy to do the following:

 

- Start a new thread with a copy of your post containing the email from Black Widow and solicit names of interested (no monetary commitment) parties including what gen VFR they have

 

- After a reasonable period to collect names and info I will aggregate our info and send it to Black Widow, referencing their previous communication, and urge them to (re)design, produce and sell these new headers sooner than 'later this year/time permitting'. I will also inquire as to their willingness to produce these as a batch/group buy if they aren't willing to make a full production run or regularly available part. I will also stress the desire of the market to see a before/after dyno test (same bike, same dyno, etc), good pics of the collectors and joins, specific diameters of tubing used, etc. (I would communicate this as a mandatory pre-requisite for a group buy).

 

- Report progress and info back to the forum in the thread previously created. Facilitate communication of details, etc, I would not take on any risk or front any funds. 

 

 

If anyone would like to me to take this on, please respond and let me know. I don't mind being the communication middle-man in the least. 

 

 

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well as long as you don't shit on black widow exhausts I'm sure you'll do fine.  :)

I got us off to a fine start,  just keep the faith.  

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Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ScottieDucati said:

Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

 

 

I can be your So Cal Guy. I have a 5 and 6 Gen, let me know what’s involved.

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Seeing what Mike Norman and Tyga can do with the NC30/35s, I'd take them over Black Widow any day of the week.

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13 hours ago, ScottieDucati said:

Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

 

 

 

I don't think we need to take a poll or feel splintered. My take: (If we exclude opinions of quality for a minute) Black Widow currently makes a full system on a production basis and it sounds like they are planning on a refresh or 'race' option already anyway, I don't know that pushing them will accomplish anything other than convince them to up the schedule. This Tyga system sounds like it needs organization and a committed group of interested parties, along with a few members to devote some time and subject their bikes to a bit of test fitting and dyno tuning. I would suggest that we jump on the opportunity for a chance at a small batch high quality header. We can also encourage Black Widow to follow through with their revised offering also, albeit less formally. Who knows, we could get lucky and these two potential products might both become available and offer a solution at different price points. All in all, I just want a stainless steel performance header for my 5th Gen (at a reasonable price point), I don't care who makes it.  

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In all honesty, if both companies are thinking of doing this, it may actually be better, as what better motivation to build something, than yo beat your competition to market. Personally, I have no direct interest in the headers (ATM) but I am willing to help get these made. I was involved from the first attempt when Rush2112 had approached HiPerform, where I was willing to loan my bike for that build. I would really like to see these made and if they truly help the performance of our bikes, then I'm likely to buy a set. Not to muddy the waters, but I really prefer to have a left exit if its for my 5 Gen.

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Wow, sounds great.  Mike has a huge rep in the small V4 racing world, so if he's interested enough to build it, I will buy at least one set!

 

Ciao,

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On 2/14/2018 at 10:59 AM, Duc2V4 said:

In all honesty, if both companies are thinking of doing this, it may actually be better, as what better motivation to build something, than yo beat your competition to market. Personally, I have no direct interest in the headers (ATM) but I am willing to help get these made. I was involved from the first attempt when Rush2112 had approached HiPerform, where I was willing to loan my bike for that build. I would really like to see these made and if they truly help the performance of our bikes, then I'm likely to buy a set. Not to muddy the waters, but I really prefer to have a left exit if its for my 5 Gen.

Yes, that!

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On 14/02/2018 at 11:31 AM, ScottieDucati said:

Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

 

 

Wow, back to TYGA. 

 

It sounds promising that someone else is doing R&D and TYGA maybe the manufacturer.

 

On another point of your post you mention your engine builder, do they do work on our v4s and what if any?

 

Cheers

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On 2/15/2018 at 9:26 PM, KevCarver said:

Yes, that!

(Left exit on 5th gen)

 

Is it even possible?  One challenge with left exit exhausts on SSSA bikes is clearing the swing arm at full extension--and the 5th/6th gen swings arms are even larger than the earlier versions, aren't they?  

 

Ciao,

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On 2/13/2018 at 4:31 PM, ScottieDucati said:

Well sorry to upset the apple cart here gents but I have a potential update. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

 

Mike would need a bike in No. Cal., and one in So. Cal. For different reasons. One in So. Cal. to 3D scan both bike and exhaust, and the other in No. Cal. to eventually Dyno tune. (I think I have that right way round). 

 

In in any event, what I do suspect is the end result would be of high quality, come with documented performance benefits and at a pretty reasonable price as are Tygas systems in general (IMO). 

 

It it seems things are a bit splintered here and I wouldn't want to piss anyone off, but this is a real company and storied V4 Honda tuner looking to collaborate, and seems the stars are a bit in alignment. 

 

I dont have much detail beyond that but idk, should we take a poll here? 

 

 

 Perfect.. Good to hear this.   I know I sorta dropped the ball here,  but,  I mean,  really the project I had/ have going is really dragging,  but not totally outa the picture,  we will see. Though that said,  On a side note,  I ran into a hic up with the headers with how they hook up to the exhaust recess in the head where the stock copper gasket goes. Yea as simple as that my seem,  guess what. The stock OEM gaskets won't work on  36mm tubes tubes,  in fact 36mm tubes just slip in place, but not a good idea to mate SS to aluminum. so a flat copper washer needs to be made.  which is another process to be taken into account $$$,  so the end user doesn't go WTF... I ended up use soft brass,  in which is a tricky bugger in it self.   This sounds great Scottie,  if Interested I can share info  on the little things I found.  just drop me a note, I'd be more than glad to help.  No apple cart here tipped over.

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Small update - I emailed and got a response with a little bit more info from Black Widow:

________________

HI Nathan,

 
I can confirm that we have started the R&D on developing an upgraded exhaust for the 1990-1993 and 1994-1997 VFR750 models, we are also upgrading the VFR800 and the VFR800 Vtec.
 
They will all accept the original silencer/muffler or and that fits the original downpipes/collector.
 
They will be lighter with improved internal gas flow.
 
I do not expect to have anything ready for at least 4-6 months, please watch our Facebook page as we will announce any new releases there.
 
Kindest regards
 
Lincoln
 
 
 
Black Widow Exhausts Ltd
8 High Barns, Roxton, Bedfordshire MK44 3ET

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk

 


From: Nathan 
Sent: 01 March 2018 20:03
To: sales@blackwidowexhausts.co.uk
Subject: Exhaust questions
cleardot.gif
 
 
 
Hello, 
 
I am a forum member on vfrdiscussion.com and saw in an exhaust related thread that you were discussing re-developing the VFR750 and VFR800 range to race spec tubing, big bore, spring fit, etc. I would be very interested in this product and would love to hear any more details you might be able to share about it. Do you think this system would still be compatible with the current silencer kits you offer (would the outlet location, tubing size be compatible,etc)? Do you have a time frame estimate for availability? 
 
There has been a lot of discussion about the need and desire for a performance header / full system for VFR800's. I believe there is a market for the product and there is currently hasn't been a supplier for some time ( since the Two Brothers Racing header was discontinued). Many VFR owners are looking for a performance upgrade to replace their older, worn stock system. I would be happy to solicit interest from forum members, organize a group buy, or just to share info etc. If you are interested please let me know. 

 

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Welp, here's hoping another avenue pans out. Mike at G-Force may be very well starting a new chapter in his career (kick-ass opportunity) and I would imagine this (not being a full fledged ongoing activity yet) is going to fall to the back burner for quite some time. 

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On 3/5/2018 at 12:42 AM, adkfinn said:

Small update - I emailed and got a response with a little bit more info from Black Widow:

________________

HI Nathan,

 
I can confirm that we have started the R&D on developing an upgraded exhaust for the 1990-1993 and 1994-1997 VFR750 models, we are also upgrading the VFR800 and the VFR800 Vtec.
 
They will all accept the original silencer/muffler or and that fits the original downpipes/collector.
 
They will be lighter with improved internal gas flow.
 
I do not expect to have anything ready for at least 4-6 months, please watch our Facebook page as we will announce any new releases there.
 
Kindest regards
 
Lincoln
 
 
 
Black Widow Exhausts Ltd
8 High Barns, Roxton, Bedfordshire MK44 3ET

www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk

 


From: Nathan 
Sent: 01 March 2018 20:03
To: sales@blackwidowexhausts.co.uk
Subject: Exhaust questions
cleardot.gif
 
 
 
Hello, 
 
I am a forum member on vfrdiscussion.com and saw in an exhaust related thread that you were discussing re-developing the VFR750 and VFR800 range to race spec tubing, big bore, spring fit, etc. I would be very interested in this product and would love to hear any more details you might be able to share about it. Do you think this system would still be compatible with the current silencer kits you offer (would the outlet location, tubing size be compatible,etc)? Do you have a time frame estimate for availability? 
 
There has been a lot of discussion about the need and desire for a performance header / full system for VFR800's. I believe there is a market for the product and there is currently hasn't been a supplier for some time ( since the Two Brothers Racing header was discontinued). Many VFR owners are looking for a performance upgrade to replace their older, worn stock system. I would be happy to solicit interest from forum members, organize a group buy, or just to share info etc. If you are interested please let me know. 

 

If they actually do make these up, and if they're better than some of the "OEM replacement" parts I've seen pics of, I'd be interested in a set. In saying that, I already have ceramic-coated '99 headers, so if the replacements aren't going to flow any better than those (and exit where they currently do - on the RHS, as I want to keep my centre-stand) - I'll just keep the headers I have.

 

I don't see myself selling my 5th-gen for the foreseeable future, and so am happy to put a bit of money into it...but only if the parts I get are going to improve things over stock.

 

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On 2/13/2018 at 4:31 PM, ScottieDucati said:

. My engine builder (G-Force Engine Development) was talking with Tyga on this topic recently and they may well be turning around on this, but we're looking to G-force to lead the development effort and Dyno tuning. 

 

 

 

 

Say hello to my old friend Mike Norman...

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34 minutes ago, BusyLittleShop said:

 

Say hello to my old friend Mike Norman...

 

 

Larry is like a total bike slut.

He knows everyone. LOL

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