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5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

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As regards the widening of the pipe after it leaves the cylinder heard, have we not established that in top level racing this has been found to be very effective? Whatever the reasons, a header pipe that widens from the port diameter to a larger size is what seems to work best. Admittedly we're seeing here a series of different diameter pipes welded together, rather than a nice tapered pipe section, but that will mean a big cost difference and may not affect the efficiency of this design to any measurable degree.

 

So I don't think the basic premise of this aspect of the design is a problem and neither do I think any fractions of a millimetre in diameter will have any significant impact by itself. However, the overall performance of this system, which is after all radically different from Honda's best design, can only be determined on the dyno and for that, we are all eagerly awaiting some real data.

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I'm not sold on BW having gotten me the correct facts, as a matter of fact.

I'm however sold on Alibaba,  BW,  and Lextek all having the same header.  lol

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22 minutes ago, Voided76 said:

....
I'm however sold on Alibaba,  BW,  and Lextek all having the same header.  lol

Well, from the pictures we’ve seen, they’re not the same. The Alibaba front downpipes cross over whereas the other 2 do not. That’s not to say they’re not all manufactured at the same factory though, but let’s not see things that aren’t there. 

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They're all coming from the same shed.

Every process is so extremely similar regardless of how they're crossing.

Needless to say though now that I have an alibaba source I can get a header made at actual spec.  or at least request it and see what they say.

As in:  Suggest to the actual manufacturer of these headers:  aka,  not lextek or BW.  let's not mix that part up.   to put the O2 sensors per bank,  instead of stacked in the collector as if that would actually make useful data for the ECU.

We'll see.  I'll post them some things and see what they say.   my experience with ali manufacturers for fairings has been pretty much stellar.  

I hope these guys are just as reasonable and flexible.

As I keep reading,  they also offer the header in titanium.  Hmm.

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@Voided76, I'd be interested to know what kind of shipping quote you get for San Diego.  I went through most of the process to find that it is cost prohibitive to order a single unit for delivery to Milwaukee.  The quote I got was over $800 for shipping alone, not including import duties and taxes or the actual product itself.

 

Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

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13 hours ago, MadScientist said:

@Voided76, I'd be interested to know what kind of shipping quote you get for San Diego.  I went through most of the process to find that it is cost prohibitive to order a single unit for delivery to Milwaukee.  The quote I got was over $800 for shipping alone, not including import duties and taxes or the actual product itself.

  

Maybe I'm doing it wrong?


That's entirely possible.  that sounds like them trying to extract extra monies THROUGH shipping charges.

So,  we'll see.  they asked me to send them a 2014 header for reference if they were going to make me one.  

Ebay to the rescue.

tossing some low-balls around to see if I can score a header for cheap,  then drop ship it to wherever these guys are.  lol

If they see just how close '14 headers are to their own jigs I imagine they'd just fab up some '14 style front primaries and 8th genners would have a header worth spending money on.

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Still hopeful for some good results from Jeff's dyno testing. One small update - the BW header is now in stock and available for purchase, I just received the email notification. 

 

 

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Yeah, me too. The price is sure right, but I don't know what the shipping and customs fees will be, on top of the price. MadScientist was

saying he got quoted around $800 for shipping alone.

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Don't know if it has been mentioned yet but I don't seem to see a stop for the center stand

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52 minutes ago, boOZZIE said:

Don't know if it has been mentioned yet but I don't seem to see a stop for the center stand

The center stand pad is on the link pipe. For BW at least, this comes with the end can, not the header ( think this is common, although it is pictured in the lextek listing). 

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3 hours ago, adkfinn said:

The center stand pad is on the link pipe. For BW at least, this comes with the end can, not the header ( think this is common, although it is pictured in the lextek listing). 

Ah yes you are correct because it is for the 5g not the 6g (BW 6g headers have the stop just before the exit) so something else us 6gers may have to consider &/or those with stock headers & aftermarket silencers

 

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On 12/21/2018 at 12:43 PM, FJ12Ryder said:

Yeah, me too. The price is sure right, but I don't know what the shipping and customs fees will be, on top of the price. MadScientist was

saying he got quoted around $800 for shipping alone.

 

Just to clarify, that was for the Alibaba supplier.  I did go through the BW order process when I got the email and their shipping is fairly reasonable (I think like $50, but I don't remember).  This deal may get better or worse for everyone outside the UK depending how Brexit proceeds.  That said, the exchange rate is actually pretty good right now, so it might be something of a gamble to wait.

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Thanks MS, I was seriously considering ordering it, but the site is down for the Christmas holidays and won't be open until January 2nd.

From what I can tell, the total price, including shipping, would be $367. Not too shabby.

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More good news, gentlemen. In addition to the exciting BW/Lextek/Alibaba offering, we have a new header to add to the mix, and it's a bona fide performance header at that:

 

A pre-production prototype header assembly with specifications nearly identical to the Two Brothers Racing [TBR] 5th gen VFR 800 header is being constructed in southern California. (See list of the differences below)
 
Here is photographic evidence of the work in progress. This is a photo of the jig that has been fabricated in order to get the proper layout of the performance headers. Photos taken 12/26/2018:
654277571_small20181226_150915.jpg.46ce3b5f1a5cd9868140a442032da039.jpg283617769_small20181226_150833.jpg.8f21a61f958e2e50f1aaa45ae2537f36.jpg
 
 
*Acknowledgements:
 
From the start of this project, we knew we'd need help, and so sought assistance from some very well respected and long time VFRD members.
 
Special thanks to VFRD member Cornercarver for the generous and trusting loan of his prized, irreplaceable [Until now!] set of original TBR headers.
 
We also would like to thank VFRD member RVFR for his support of this effort through contributions from the 2017 gofundme header fund.
 
Contributing members - all massively experienced and extremely helpful - include but are not limited to: Cornercarver, TimmytheCop, MiniCarver, BusyLittleShop, BuzznerSuntrusts, RVFR, Mohawk, Mello Dude, CandyRedRC46, Stray, keef, and 3dcycle. Our sincere thanks to all these individuals and others for their wise counsel. Without you, we could neither be getting a prototype built, nor could we have established a path to a production version of this performance header.
 
 
*General information / major bullet points:
 
[1] The production version of the performance header assembly described here will be hand built in southern California and cost $760.00 plus shipping from the manufacturer. California residents need to add 7.75% state sales tax.
 
[2] The header will fit 5th and 6th gen VFR800s. [8th gen owners, see Note 'a' below]
 
[3] The header will go into production when orders for 15 units are received with a $200 deposit per unit.
 
[4] The prototype header is scheduled to be completed by 1/11/2019.
 
[5] A baseline dyno run of a VFR fitted with 98/99 headers and same day/same dyno full tune of the same VFR with prototype header installed is scheduled for the week of 1/14/2019. [Dyno testing methodology is detailed under 'Dyno testing procedure']
 
[6] We will be generating and updating a list of individuals interested in purchasing a replica of the TBR header as described here.
 
If you are interested, PM us and let us know the following:
a] what gen VFR [5th, 6th, or 8th] you would like a header for
b] what fueling management system you use or intend to use
c] if more than one unit, how many headers you are interested in purchasing
d] if you are placing a deposit for a production run header
 
*UPDATED LIST OF PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN PURCHASING OR HAVE PLACED DEPOSITS FOR THESE HEADERS IS KEPT HERE:
 
*Background:
 
Over the past year, VFRD member Duc2V4 and I have made an exhaustive [ouch!] search for a manufacturer/fabricator qualified and willing to produce a reasonably-priced, high quality "replica" of the Two Brothers Racing 5th gen header assembly. The TBR is the accepted standard in production VFR performance exhaust systems. After unproductive efforts with several fabricators, in August of this year we were referred to and contacted a gentleman named Wade, founder of an established southern California exhaust manufacturing firm. Wade expressed interest in taking on this project. Communications about and development of this project have continued with Wade since August and resulted in the construction of the fixture pictured above, along with a pre-production prototype header, a dyno testing schedule, and a commitment to build a production run of 15 units.
 
 
*Dyno testing procedure:
 
Testing will consist of a baseline dyno run of a 5th gen VFR with OEM 98/99 headers installed [See Note b below]. After the baseline run, the test VFR's 98/99 headers will be removed and replaced with the prototype performance header assembly. On the same day as the baseline run, a full dyno tune will be performed on the subject VFR with performance header installed. The dyno tune will be performed on the same dyno by the same dyno technician, with the same air filter, same fuel management system, and same midpipe/muffler.
[Test subject VFR is described in 'Test bike']
 
 
*Some dimensions, features, and specifications of the header will be taken from the TBR.
The new header will incorporate the following specifications from the original TBR header design:
-header construction will be from 18 gauge 304 stainless steel tubing, [0.049"/1.24mm wall thickness]
-header will have 38mm od primary tubes [1.5" od]
-header will have 41.5mm od secondary tubes [1 5/8" od]
-header will have 51mm od collector tubing [2" od]
-header's rear primary tube junctions will be fastened by spring tension fittings
-header's left front and left rear primary tubes will merge
-header's right front and right rear primary tubes will merge
-header will have no crossover of front or rear primary tubes
-header's collector exit tube will have a 51mm od [See Note c below]
-header's tubing will be mandrel bent
 
 
*Some specifications will be changed from original TBR header design.
To align with the VFR community's objectives and improve durability, the header will incorporate the following changes to the original TBR header design:
-header's collector exit pipe will be modified to match position and angle of OEM collector exit pipe
-midpipe/muffler/clamp to be supplied by customer [See Note c below]
-midpipe/muffler to be fastened to header collector exit pipe by clamp
[Clamp not supplied with header]
-header will have two O2 sensor bosses at 2000-2009 OEM header's O2 sensor locations: one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after left front/left rear primary merge, one O2 sensor boss on secondary tube after right front/right rear primary merge
-right rear primary tube of all headers will be mandrel bent to provide 1/16" clearance from rear head cam chain tensioner when installed on 6th gen VFRs
-header's stud nut tension flanges will be 1/4" thick stainless steel [See Note d below]
-header's collars at head end of primary tubes will be reinforced and length adjusted for 1/4" head stud fixing flanges
-header's internal flow surfaces at head end collar joints of primary tubes will be finished smooth/flush [See Note e below]
 
 
*Wade's credentials:
Wade designed and built exhausts for Kerker Exhaust Systems from 1980-1988. Since founding his own exhaust fabrication business in 1989, he has produced custom, prototype, and production exhaust systems and components for numerous individuals and manufacturers, including Two Brothers Racing. He builds a production aftermarket full exhaust system for a current non-Honda V4-powered motorcycle. Here are two of his current projects. Photos taken 12/27/2018 and 12/28/2018 :

765448509_smallwork1.jpg.3846b3fed1f9d8f0c7ac8a1704954f28.jpg437507577_smallwork2.jpg.89fa366c46a57ddcc00ba666c7b89875.jpg

1704453122_smallwork3.jpg.24c5c28b4621cafe13d2b13d11486114.jpg1730889884_smallwork4.jpg.8713a92380ad4f1677f5d93d04ca49c3.jpg

423844924_smallwork5.jpg.1bef04c5c1deaf89529cd566854e7938.jpg1236302504_smallwork6.jpg.eeda2f6f5ec3c86b08132727fc9ec41e.jpg

1819801129_smallwork9.jpg.54c53bb02ea287a81039ad468e538f79.jpg

 

 

 
*Test bike:
 
For initial testing, we will use this motorcycle:
2001 California 5th gen with 60,000 miles
K&N big mouth air filter [See Note f below]
PC III USB, map dyno tuned in 2013 with OEM California ECU, no O2 sensors installed
Dynojet O2 sensor resistor terminations installed on OEM O2 sensor leads
OEM 49 state ECU now installed, PC III not retuned, no O2 sensors installed
OEM 98/99 VFR headers ceramic coated with Staintune high mount slipon.
Maintenance performed before dyno testing:
New air filter, new Denso iridium IUH27#4 plugs, valve clearance adjustment, injectors professionally calibrated, starter valves synched, new thermostat, new silicon coolant hoses, new Engine Ice coolant, oil and filter changed w Mobil 1 0w-30 and Purolator PBL14610 filter
 
 
*Notes:
 
Note a - an 8th gen version of the performance header with 'widely spaced' front primaries is in the works for a production run to follow the initial production run of 5th/6th gen headers.
 
Note b - If there is significantly greater interest in proving the prototype header on a 6th gen, we have a 6th gen standing by and can use it for the dyno baseline run and test/tuning instead of the 5th gen. For 6th gen test/tuning, we will use the same dyno testing procedure at the same test/tune facility as described for the initial 5th gen test/tune. The 6th gen available for testing currently has ceramic coated 98/99 headers installed with gutted OEM mufflers and a PCV. We would obtain open flowing aftermarket slipon mufflers to optimize testing of the prototype header.
 
Note c - Wade recommends keeping the the 51mm od collector exit pipe instead of reducing it to the OEM exit pipe's 49mm od for the following reasons:
1 - it is probable that reducing the collector diameter will have a [small] negative effect on top end performance
2 - Wade uses premanufactured tubing merges of very high quality. Reducing the collector diameter would mean that the collector merge exit diameter would be too large for the 49mm od exit pipe, and the labor required to adapt the two components would raise the cost.
3 - purchasers of a replica header who want to use aftermarket slipons can have the collector end of their slipon expanded to fit the 51mm od exit pipe by any competent exhaust/muffler shop. Two Brothers slipons  and OEM mufflers will require exhaust wrap to function as a gasket in place of the OEM 'donut' gasket.
4 - the collector joint of all slipon midpipes we could think of except TBR are 2" od and slotted at the clamping end. Wade was concerned that a 2" od midpipe that has been slotted to clamp onto the OEM collector pipe is likely to tear at the base of the slots when expanded.
IMPORTANT - when having a slipon's midpipe expanded to fit this performance header, make certain the muffler shop expands it gradually in two or more small steps. Wade recommends drilling a relief hole at the muffler side ends of the midpipe's slots to distribute stress and reduce the possibility of tearing. Wade tested the viability of expanded slotted 304 stainless steel 18 gauge 2" od tubing by slotting a piece of 2" tubing while I was at his facility. He then expanded the slotted end of the tube in two steps to fit over the 51mm od collector exit pipe with no tearing at the slots.
 
Note d - Here is Wade's 1/4" thick stainless steel head stud nut tension flange:
1687569010_smallwork7.jpg.85661739982bb4d81adc59f92242d117.jpg
 
Here is the original TBR head stud nut tension flange [Note that flange is bent from tension]:
1483054119_smallwork8.jpg.ab511eade0561046fbacea8b6b083aed.jpg
 
Note e - Original TBR has rough, unfinished joints in the internal flow surfaces at head end collars of primary tubes
 
Note f - See RVFR's June 8 2017 post on page 5 of vfrd thread '5th & 6th VFR 800 header build' for photos of standard vs big mouth K&N air filters. Both filters have K&N part number HA-8098
 
Note g - Significant improvement can be achieved over OEM gas flow through the exhaust port into the header primaries by using crush gaskets that do not intrude into the gas flow path when installed. The id of OEM VFR crush gaskets reduces to around 30.41mm when installed with header stud nuts torqued to spec. The exhaust port id is 32.45mm - that's a 2mm reduction in gas flow passage diameter. To solve this, we will be confirming Mohawk's recommendation to use GSXR750 crush gaskets between the performance header primaries and the VFR's head.
 
Note h - Wade has expressed a modest willingness to build complete exhaust systems in high or low mount configurations for 5th gen VFRs. These full systems would have the same specs as the full systems that were the only configuration in which TBR sold the VFR headers - the TBR headers were only available with a matching midpipe and muffler/canister. Mufflers built by Wade would be available in metal or carbon fiber. I neglected to ask Wade which metals he uses for muffler/canisters or what a full system would cost, but I will ask him to specify materials and pricing. I have not yet introduced the possibility of Wade building a 6th gen full system, but I will ask him if he'd consider it.
 
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517 replies and just shy of Christmas!

Well done guys!

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, sfdownhill said:
More good news, gentlemen. In addition to the exciting BW/Lextek/Alibaba offering, we have a new header to add to the mix, and it's a bona fide performance header at that:.........

 

sfdownhill, that's amazing stuff, sending you a PM right now.......

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I have followed this thread even though I have a header and won't likely buy as my old ass is slowing down. I just wanted to say WELL DONE!  This is what makes this place great.

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:lurk:mmmm dyno results

Fantastic stuff Sfdownhill and VFRD contributing  members.

A couple of questions about payments,

1. how? PayPal or other 

2. International shipping cost

🍻

Ps will there be a center stand stop?

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Color me surprised, someone actually did it.

 

Once they start shipping I'll pickup a high mileage 5th gen to beat on and grab a set for it. 

I have an old trusty Power Commander 2 ready to go 😄 

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Oh man, I'd just about talked myself out of the whole thing, but that thing looks so cool...

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Well, the truth is that it's still an egg, not a chicken. But I went to Wade's shop Wednesday Dec 26, and there were CC's TBR headers, nestled in a well-made, nicely welded jig, being modeled for the prototype. Duc2V4 and I have held off making any mention of this header attempt until something was happening for certain, because as anyone who's watched this thread at all knows, complications do arise and fabricators/suppliers do drop out. Like others, we ran into several dead ends and had interested exhaust firms drop out 1/2 way along.

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