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5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

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Right on Stray. Thanks for perspective, and all the time you are putting into this.

 

Please pass along to Jeff that his extra effort is also appreciated. We’ve all experienced the failure of a critical bolt or part in the midst of a mechanical project - it’s never any fun. We’re rooting for him.

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Good luck Stray, people on the internet are complete jerks. Fully agree with what you have said, but at the same time disappointed that multiple attempts to get a descent header for the VFR, due to companies total lack of interest & modern emissions rules/legal ramifications. 

 

Most of of the people that cause the trouble by annoying the vendor will probably never buy a system, which makes it all the worse !

 

Good luck with it & I hope you get reasonable numbers on the Dyno.

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11 hours ago, Stray said:

 

With the greatest respect gentlemen, have you considered that our public forum might be frequented by Lextek (and BW and others) and that this general “venting of spleen” is not really endearing us to them? 

 

For a start we need to put a few very important things in perspective:

 

1. We ride 20 year old bikes with rotting headers for which there is no real market as a parts supplier

 

2. The Lextek is a Chinese made header cheaper than three full tanks of petrol. It’s not a BSB race system and NEVER CLAIMED TO BE! 

 

3. Jeff from Lextek has gone considerably out of his way to provide info and test a system for us - as a courtesy. He even bought a VFR motorcycle specifically for the purpose. That’s nothing short of heroic in my book! 

 

Now as Jeff stares in despair at the three snapped exhaust studs on his bike I wonder how motivated to help us he feels with all this negative clamour in his ears. I’d have downed tools a long time ago. Hopefully Jeff is a more patient man than me. 

 

This is not a race header designed to win the TT. It’s a nice mass-produced item designed to serve our ageing fleet of bikes. Despite this it boasts a lot of advantages:

 

a. Stainless steel construction

b. 5th gen diameters

c. Neat welds (see pics)

d. Catless

e. Probably lighter than stock

f. IT IS REALLY CHEAP!!!

 

Did I mention that it’s CHEAP? Oh, and steeply discounted for us too. That, just in case anyone missed it, makes it REALLY CHEAP! 

 

In light of all this can we please stop beating on those who have chosen to help us, while they’re helping us? Lextek (and BW) have endured a thrashing for even daring to offer us a system. No one else is offering us any alternatives. 

 

Let’s manage our expectations, show a modicum of courtesy and pray Jeff follows through with his project for us. 

 

Stray

 

 

Thanks for your input.

 

No-one (least of all me) suggested that it should be a "race header".

 

What I (and others - not quoted, BTW) was after was some kind of empirical data on the headers when actually fitted to a motorcycle.

 

My comments weren't directed at Lextek. They were directed at BW which, as most know (and has been photo-documented in this forum in other threads), has had issues in terms of construction quality (particularly around merge welds etc.) The current (seemingly collaboratively designed) versions "appear" to have less than optimally placed O2 bungs, which may or may not have 00/01 bikes throwing codes/requiring spacers/fitting of O2 eliminators etc.

 

So, I'd have thought it natural to want to see how the system tests on a bike, rather than simply buying it "sight unseen", wearing freight and exchange costs, only to (potentially) wind up with a system that's no better (and potentially worse) than the one I currently have. I'm not suggesting it would be. What I am suggesting is that I don't know one way or the other.

 I

I also take umbrage at the comment about "people whinging about the product probably wouldn't buy it anyway". What would you know about what I would/wouldn't buy?

 

All because I (and others) wanted to see a bit more rigour around the product's sale than "here it is, buy it".

 

Good on them for (co)designing it. No issue there. If it turns out to be a decent system, I'll be more than happy to put my hand up for a set, noting that people here in Oz will wear (significantly) higher freight, and exchange costs, than will the UK and US-based people. (And likely pay a GST on top of all that). It won't be as "dirt cheap" as you suggest, by the time its landed here.

 

But in BW's case anyway, I'd suggest that they have some goodwill to make up from the "SandyBike Spares" days...and some empirical testing on a bike would go some way to restoring that.

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I have to say I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, we really don't want to piss off suppliers who are being helpful and offering a good deal, but it is also true that the customer deserves to know what they're buying and so far, we don't.

 

Yes, Jeff is putting his on a dyno (he didn't have to buy a bike as he knew I was prepared to use mine so that's down to him, no actual brownie points gained) and we are (probably all) very keen to know the outcome of that. But so far we still have nothing, so I think it's not unrealistic of those waiting for this information to get impatient.

 

However, when it comes to BW it's a slightly different story. They have a chequered history and although that may be behind them, we have long been assured they are working on the BEST system ever for the VFR yet it now very much looks like they are simply buying in and re-selling someone else's product. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, just that it's not what they've been telling us for the last few months and now to cap it all, they seem reluctant to release any actual dyno results. Instead appearing to try and deflect such requests with very dubious claims that it's impossible to produce truly comparative data and we should simply look at figures from their different systems on different bikes as that should give us an idea. Sorry, this is disingenuous bunkum.

 

I have no previous experience with BW, but right now I feel we've been somewhat led up the garden path. They can easily correct this situation by coming clean about the source of their product and doing some real tests and/or discussing it with us on here. No, we're not looking for race track performance, but right now we have NO idea whatsoever how this system even runs and I think (potential) customers deserve to know more than what we've been told so far which is quite frankly, not a lot.

 

This is not having a dig at potential suppliers, just asking very reasonable questions, prior to stumping up any actual hard cash. How can they expect anything less?

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So now that everyone has had the opportunity to air their views, we can let it go. And wait to see what comes our way.

 

Perfect.

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I've been following along here just out of interest. My bike came with a Delkevic header. My butt dyno can't tell you a thing about it because this 07 is just so different than my 03. One day, I might need to replace it.  Anyway, I decided to follow up on some things and came across this....

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VFR800-factory-direct-selling-motorcycle-stainless_60684155091.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.450.494e5b5a5Dbphs

 

From the pics, they appear to have a very capable factory. The page says they will work with your drawing or specs. Maybe someone has already done the leg work and is selling a system. I'm not passing judgement, just thought it might be of interest.

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4 minutes ago, Sweeper said:

I've been following along here just out of interest. My bike came with a Delkevic header. My butt dyno can't tell you a thing about it because this 07 is just so different than my 03. One day, I might need to replace it.  Anyway, I decided to follow up on some things and came across this....

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VFR800-factory-direct-selling-motorcycle-stainless_60684155091.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.450.494e5b5a5Dbphs

 

From the pics, they appear to have a very capable factory. The page says they will work with your drawing or specs. Maybe someone has already done the leg work and is selling a system. I'm not passing judgement, just thought it might be of interest.

 

LOL, doesn't that look familiar...Anyway, if I ever meet anyone with an RC49 (VFR800P), I will be sure to let them know that Gzying Hui Muffler in Guangdong has got 'em covered!

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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12 hours ago, JZH said:

 

LOL, doesn't that look familiar...

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

That's what I thought initially, but in the picture the front pipes cross over, whereas the BW (and I think the Lextek but cannot now find the pictures) do not cross at the front. That's not to say though that these are not the actual manufacturers of said systems.

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22 hours ago, JZH said:

 

LOL, doesn't that look familiar...Anyway, if I ever meet anyone with an RC49 (VFR800P), I will be sure to let them know that Gzying Hui Muffler in Guangdong has got 'em covered!

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

 

Coincidentally, I saw an RC49 for sale on the Japanese auctions last night. A cool $AUD24K (~$USD17500)...

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Wikipedia’s entry on Honda RC motorcycles doesn’t list an RC49...what, pray tell, is a VFR800P/RC49?

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https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Police_motorcycles_by_brand#/media/File:Japanese_HONDA_VFR800P_police_motorcycle.jpg

 

It's the Japanese Police version of the 5th gen VFR.

 

Has raised bars, bags, and fittings for crash bars, etc, but is fundamentally the same as the VFR800

 

Super fun youtubes of the VFR800P in action, too. Like this:

 

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I thought it had non-linked brakes? It always looked to me like F4i forks and brakes.

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2 hours ago, TheLimey said:

I thought it had non-linked brakes? It always looked to me like F4i forks and brakes.

 You could be right about the non-linked brakes, I'll have to double check (i.e. go through pictures of the parts until I find some of the brakes etc. 😉 )

 

They were - apparently - produced from 2001-2008, and have a number of differences to the standard 5th Gen.

"Ventilated" rear rotor (presumably for low-speed work with lots of rear braking), ABS, completely different instrument panel (all digital), and quite a few differences in plastics etc. given the intended (Police) use, plus some other stuff I've forgotten.

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38430034_10209784795137052_8289663283623There is a VFR800 owners forum on Facebook and a member who bought one at an auction. He was restoring it, I'll post a pic...

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*cracks knuckles*

Here.  we.  go.

https://www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk/vfr800f-vfr-800-1998-2003-rc46-exhaust-collector-down-pipes-228-p.asp

"An all new design concept from the Black Widow Performance Department."

Meanwhile after a BW rep send me the specs as measured......

that's a 29mm ID primary at the port boys.

s-l1600 (1).jpg

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while I believe that it does neck up to 36mm,  is 29mm a match for the cyl head or is someone smoking crack at BW causing exhaust gas to rapidly slow down after it exits the cyl head?

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3 hours ago, Voided76 said:

while I believe that it does neck up to 36mm,  is 29mm a match for the cyl head or is someone smoking crack at BW causing exhaust gas to rapidly slow down after it exits the cyl head?

:blink: it makes no sense, why wouldn't they just use the same 38od for the primary, we know 38 fits at the cylinder head. 

But I guess we'll just have to wait to see what those dyno figures say

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On 12/17/2018 at 1:29 PM, Voided76 said:

while I believe that it does neck up to 36mm,  is 29mm a match for the cyl head or is someone smoking crack at BW causing exhaust gas to rapidly slow down after it exits the cyl head?

 

22 hours ago, boOZZIE said:

:blink: it makes no sense, why wouldn't they just use the same 38od for the primary, we know 38 fits at the cylinder head. 

But I guess we'll just have to wait to see what those dyno figures say

 

i.d. of the 5th gen exhaust port where it exits the head is 32.45mm

 

id of the sleeve on the outside of the 5th gen head is 41.10mm [Measured closest to the exhaust port]

This id represents any header primary's maximum possible od where it meets the 5th gen head.

 

This sleeve is part of the head casting. It is narrowest at the exhaust port and widens to maximum id at the end of the sleeve, away from the port.

 

id of the same sleeve at its widest point is 42.43mm [Measured furthest from exhaust port]

 

It's a guess about the widening of the Lextek/BW primaries a few inches away from the head, but in theory, the velocity of a gas moving in a tube decreases when it encounters an increase in tubing diameter. It appears the Lextek/BW header keeps the primary diameter smaller from the port several inches down the primary, probably to keep gas velocity higher before widening the primary diameter. Higher velocity through and past the exhaust port increases scavenging of exhaust gases from the cylinder.

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Impatiently waits for someone to post dyno results from any header what-so-ever. So many headers, so little data.

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1 hour ago, sfdownhill said:

 

 

i.d. of the 5th gen exhaust port where it exits the head is 32.45mm

 

id of the sleeve on the outside of the 5th gen head is 41.10mm [Measured closest to the exhaust port]

This id represents any header primary's maximum possible od where it meets the 5th gen head.

 

This sleeve is part of the head casting. It is narrowest at the exhaust port and widens to maximum id at the end of the sleeve, away from the port.

 

id of the same sleeve at its widest point is 42.43mm [Measured furthest from exhaust port]

 

It's a guess about the widening of the Lextek/BW primaries a few inches away from the head, but in theory, the velocity of a gas moving in a tube decreases when it encounters an increase in tubing diameter. It appears the Lextek/BW header keeps the primary diameter smaller from the port several inches down the primary, probably to keep gas velocity higher before widening the primary diameter. Higher velocity through and past the exhaust port increases scavenging of exhaust gases from the cylinder.

So that's a step at the exhaust port 32.45 down to 29.3 to the exhausts?

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On 11/9/2018 at 5:51 AM, Stray said:

5430E49A-0866-4326-9B50-964B0F5AD769.thumb.jpeg.4cbbbff49730c0f821bacef8ed1401c1.jpeg

CA3314E4-428E-4991-BEAA-875DC70F323A.thumb.jpeg.c4c86b4020cbb98d8a3ed9a667f7f872.jpeg

 

Downpipes internal diameter starts at 32mm and goes up to 38mm. 

 

7B5FF8E4-7118-4981-8485-439FBA4DB20D.thumb.jpeg.e0149ed7b6eef6ba2dbda393ab8bae14.jpeg

 

Exit tube is 50.8mm - same as standard I believe? 

 

CD959E1C-104E-434D-AA08-7EC77CDD23F7.thumb.jpeg.50f0bf2f5065016cb6ca72b280f4bbca.jpeg

 

 

In the post above, with photos forwarded to Stray from Jeff of Simmi Performance - distributors of Lextek - it appears someone is holding an actual header in an actual hand upon an actual desk. It's a stretch, but because two different measuring tapes can be glimpsed in these photos, my subjective response is to give Jeff the benefit of the doubt: he has derived a 32mm id at primary inlet point of the Lextek headers.

 

On the other hand, I lean toward directing skepticism in the direction of BW - the company who has put a self-proclaimed 18 months into excruciating R&D on a proprietary header, posted a video of a bike on a dyno, declined to publish any resulting performance data, and sent a photo with a specific measurement of the header's primary inlet od as 31.5mm...somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.95mm smaller than the id of the exhaust port.

 

And let's not forget the other recent hat thrown into the ring  - the alibaba supplier.

 

We are simply receiving data from multiple sources about multiple products that appear quite similar.

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"Downpipes id of 32mm at the inlet point"  that would then step to 29.3mm at the weld?

Is that correct?

id_.jpg

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:dry:
honestly though,  I was mad,  but they're close.

chop them at the first weld,  and put some 35.5mm ID tubing in there, which is cheap and cheerful,  and you're golden.

at some point, it's all custom.  I am more than likely going to have to contact someone to bend and weld similar front primaries to get it to work on my RC79 (Oh yes I will.) so there's that.

 

at some point there's going to be some silly dyno after I've gotten all the factory power out of the '14 VFR

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