Jump to content
RVFR

5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

Recommended Posts

Hello All, 

 

I know it’s been a while but Jeff has finally got the green light to drop the VFR off with his dyno/tuning guy on Monday. 

 

Hopefully we will have side-by-side comparisons by end of the week! 

 

Big thanks to Jeff for sticking with it. 

 

Stray

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to take away momentum from the Lextek/Stray/Jeff header (which sounds great by the way) - but Black Widow just released the pics and pricing and some details on the performance header they've been working on:

 

FB Link - 

 

And the order page on their website with pricing and some details (shows as OOS at present): https://www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk/vfr800f-vfr-800-1998-2003-rc46-exhaust-collector-down-pipes-228-p.asp

 

I don't see where they list diatmeters for the primaries or secondaries, just that they are 304 stainless, 1.5mm wall tube. It is clear that the primaries step up in diameter and appear to use a very factory looking mount/flange. I will email them and ask for tubing specs. Thoughts?

 

Edit - After a bit more looking, these things look very similar to the Lextek headers to me

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, adkfinn said:

Not to take away momentum from the Lextek/Stray/Jeff header (which sounds great by the way) - but Black Widow just released the pics and pricing and some details on the performance header they've been working on:

...

Edit - After a bit more looking, these things look very similar to the Lextek headers to me

 

 

Yes, remarkably similar. Coincidence? 🤨

 

Interesting that they exclude the 6th and 8th Gen.

 

Hmm, they claim suitable for both Carburettor and Injected models. That's a bit worrying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still interested, and it seems we actually have a prototype this time.  If someone is compiling a list, go ahead and add me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, MadScientist said:

I'm still interested, and it seems we actually have a prototype this time.  If someone is compiling a list, go ahead and add me.

 

Don't hold your breath. 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting - Black Widow is merging cylinders 1 with 3 [both rear cylinders] and 2 with 4 [both front cylinders], while TBR and Erion merge 1 with 2 and 3 with 4. And BW is only $377.01 at today's exchange rate. Still, I find it a bit sticky that after "18 months R&D" Black Widow states their exhaust system is for 1997-2003 VFRs - the last year of 4th gen through the second year of 6th gen. Nit picking, but with that level of attention to detail on their own website...

image.png.09832d3a3d7842d81fa80a42e16c659a.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, what do you all think? Lextek or BW? Merge differences aside, both look pretty good to me. Only nitpick is the BW doesn't have a center stand bump stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Airisom said:

So, what do you all think? Lextek or BW? Merge differences aside, both look pretty good to me. Only nitpick is the BW doesn't have a center stand bump stop.

 The BW center stand bump is on the link pipe, at least on mine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heck, at this price point, even with shipping, I may be very interested again. They sure look good, to me anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, adkfinn said:

 The BW center stand bump is on the link pipe, at least on mine.

Oh yeah...duh. I forgot it was on the mid-pipe...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

Interesting - Black Widow is merging cylinders 1 with 3 [both rear cylinders] and 2 with 4 [both front cylinders], while TBR and Erion merge 1 with 2 and 3 with 4. And BW is only $377.01 at today's exchange rate. Still, I find it a bit sticky that after "18 months R&D" Black Widow states their exhaust system is for 1997-2003 VFRs - the last year of 4th gen through the second year of 6th gen. Nit picking, but with that level of attention to detail on their own website...

image.png.09832d3a3d7842d81fa80a42e16c659a.png


The year thing is because of the UK. 

 

5th gens were released late 1997 so there are 1997 plated bikes. It's appropriate given the region. 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To my untrained (jaundiced) eye, they look press-bent.

 

Probably won't make a huge difference (assuming everything else stacks up). just an observation...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not buy this system before receiving visual evidence of the fab work on the joint indicated here. At the price point I can't see these being fitted very well, and it wasn't that long ago that the Sandy Bike Spares headers were found to have a huge issue in this area.

 

It appears removal of the O2 sensor block offs would allow inspection of the workmanship in the joint. 

20181207_000920.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, adkfinn said:

Not to take away momentum from the Lextek/Stray/Jeff header (which sounds great by the way) - but Black Widow just released the pics and pricing and some details on the performance header they've been working on:

 

FB Link - 

 

And the order page on their website with pricing and some details (shows as OOS at present): https://www.blackwidowexhausts.co.uk/vfr800f-vfr-800-1998-2003-rc46-exhaust-collector-down-pipes-228-p.asp

 

I don't see where they list diatmeters for the primaries or secondaries, just that they are 304 stainless, 1.5mm wall tube. It is clear that the primaries step up in diameter and appear to use a very factory looking mount/flange. I will email them and ask for tubing specs. Thoughts?

 

Edit - After a bit more looking, these things look very similar to the Lextek headers to me

 

 

With regards to what Seb said, see if they can get a clear picture through the o2 holes and at the flange so we can see what those welds are like

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And where 1/3 and 2/4 join as well.

The original Sandy Spares was atrocious, with a tiny hole where the joints were that looked like was cut with an oxy torch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So just like buses, you wait forever for one, then 2 turn up.

 

I've been studying the photos and there are minor differences, but the Lextek and the BW are uncannily similar. Interestingly, they both use the Fronts and Rears merge scheme, but is this simply for cost, or did they find that worked best on the dyno? In which case, what were they trying to achieve? We have established that Lefts and Rights each merging make best top end power whereas Fronts and Rears merging gives better mid range (according to the results of what Honda and others have used), so why have Lextek and BW ended up the same? Did they independently determine that better mid range was more desirable, or was some other factor (like cost) of greater significance?

 

Whatever, we need to see dyno results for both of these systems. Something that is noticeably lacking from both suppliers at present.

 

There are other questions though. As Seb said, we need to know the joints (merges in particular) are clean inside. From what we have seen the Lextek are good, but we need to confirm this for the BW. There is also the question of whether the Rears clear the V-Tec cam chain tensioner. I'm not sure if we confirmed that yet with the Lextek, but as yet we have no idea about the BW in this regard and do the flanges rotate to accommodate different head bolt orientation? Yes for Lextek, but also need to confirm that for BW. With both these 2 points confirmed, then to the best of my knowledge that would mean a system could be used on any 5th or 6th Gen or have I missed anything?

 

I think we also established that the same system could be used on the 8th Gen with simply different (splayed) front downpipes to clear the rads and maybe a different outlet? I'm not 100% on this but if we can confirm it, then that's something else to discuss with both Lextek and BW. It has to be in their best interests to have a system that's applicable to the widest range of models.

 

So a few questions to resolve and dyno results to be viewed and then looks like we'll have a choice of 2 systems. Could be worse. 😀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, VFROZ said:

And where 1/3 and 2/4 join as well.

The original Sandy Spares was atrocious, with a tiny hole where the joints were that looked like was cut with an oxy torch.

 

I've certainly mentioned this a few times, too, but to be fair to BW, their SBS days were a long time ago.  They're making the effort to produce something decent for an old bike, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  (But of course, verify!)

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, JZH said:

 

I've certainly mentioned this a few times, too, but to be fair to BW, their SBS days were a long time ago.  They're making the effort to produce something decent for an old bike, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  (But of course, verify!)

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

I'd be interested to know what their current VFR750 system is like. Is it still the original SBS product with the rough/restrictive internals or a better made product altogether.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JZH said:

 

I've certainly mentioned this a few times, too, but to be fair to BW, their SBS days were a long time ago.  They're making the effort to produce something decent for an old bike, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  (But of course, verify!)

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

 

I agree with you, just pointing out that just because a system looks good, doesn’t mean it actually works. 

I deffinetly want a good system for cheap. 

Or an ok system for cheap, even though I love my bike, I don’t think it’s worth spending too much on an exhaust system for marginal gains when there are so many great new bikes out there. 

Briing on the dyno results. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spoke to Jeff today and he says VFR is next in the queue for dyno testing - we are almost there! 

 

He has sold a KTM 640 Adventure that needs sorting on the dyno ASAP and that’s next in the queue, so I can’t see this delaying much longer. 

 

One small request:

 

Please don’t approach Jeff about selling off eBay as it’ll get him in trouble with Lextek. Certainly don’t ask him questions about the group buy he is not supposed to be doing for us! If you’ve reached out to him on eBay recently don’t be offended if he doesn’t respond. 

 

He is doing us a favour (and a very generous discount) so let’s not get him in trouble with his corporate paymasters. 

 

Also please don’t pepper him with questions directly as he is feeling rather harassed of late. If you need any info PM me instead and I’ll get you an answer. 

 

Sorry if this comes across rude - not my intention at all. Just trying to shield Jeff from the many passionate VFR owners who’ve been waiting several years for a decent header and are understandably passionate about it arriving at last. 

 

Jeff’s doing his best (he doesn’t own the dyno business - it’s getting done as a favour by a friend) so let’s give him some room. 

 

The dyno results will be in very, very soon and we can get this group buy underway. 

 

In the meanwhile please let me know by PM if there’s anything you need. Please don’t publish prices etc openly - we don’t want Jeff getting in trouble. 

 

Best, 

 

Stray 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Latest update: 

 

Jeff’s tuner mate, Keith, just snapped three front head studs off the VFR! 

 

Keith will drill them out no problem but this will cause some delay. He’s going to cut the rest of the original system off. 

 

Situation is slightly more  complicated as either Keith or Jeff has just become a grandfather to a baby boy. Message is s bit confusing so I’m not sure who the new grandfather is: Jeff or Keith...

 

Needless to say the next couple of days will be chaotic and the lads will crack on with the job ASAP. 

 

Stray 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/6/2018 at 9:57 AM, sfdownhill said:

Interesting - Black Widow is merging cylinders 1 with 3 [both rear cylinders] and 2 with 4 [both front cylinders], while TBR and Erion merge 1 with 2 and 3 with 4. And BW is only $377.01 at today's exchange rate. Still, I find it a bit sticky that after "18 months R&D" Black Widow states their exhaust system is for 1997-2003 VFRs - the last year of 4th gen through the second year of 6th gen. Nit picking, but with that level of attention to detail on their own website...

 

More proof of the UK numbering. This is for pre-cat converter 5th gens, notice how it starts at 97

 

No automatic alt text available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those wanting Sandy Bike Spares/Black Widow dyno numbers, I'm going to paste an excerpt from an emailed response I had from them on this topic.

 

" We do not release Dyno results on any of our exhausts as these can vary due to the age, mileage and set up of the bike, we are happy to post owners results as these are specific to their bike and are unbiased. Please see our Facebook page for owners results from some of our other designs, they are excellent. "

 

Sorry, but that's crap.

 

For the record, I asked for dyno comparisons between a stock, "catless" header, and their design. They refuse to provide this info.

 

Also, not sure how relevant "seeing a Facebook page for owners results from some our other designs" actually helps one form an opinion as to the gains/design eficiency of this new header...

 

Maybe I'm missing something...?

 

Or not.

 

No. I won't be purchasing either of these until I see empirical, back-to-back dyno testing. Same bike, same dyno, "catless" headers vs these new ones (obviously with the same slip-on fitted to both headers).

 

Pretty simple, really. They either provide them, or they don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy.