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5th & 6th VFR 800 Header build

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On 08/02/2018 at 2:24 PM, CandyRedRC46 said:

I think it would work, but they would have to promise/ ensure higher quality, actual performance merges and provide a legit dyno before/after. Also they could not ask more than a $100 over their standard header, any more than that for an ebay brand header, would be ridiculous. 

 

Hey CR, yes the old Sandy Bikes spares pipes were crap. But the newer Black Widow versions appear to be much better quality. Practicle SportsBike Magazine in the UK, has been fitting a bunch of their refurb bikes with these & they seem impressed with the quality & the performance.  Performance Bikes magazine did a feature last year on dirt cheap endurance racing. They got a dog of a Bandit 600 & stripped, cleaned & adjusted everything whilst removing the few parts that are allowed in the race series rules. One item that you can change is the exhaust & air filter, everything else engine wise has to be stock. They used Black Widow exhaust & after finishing the build the day before the race meeting & then having an electrical problem that meant they missed most of practice. They rocked up on the Sunday & won their class !  The exhaust looked good in the mag pictures & performed better than stock !  And that is NOT a performance version, just the bog stock replace my rusted out version.

 

So it looks like they have got their act together as far as manufacturing is concerned. Only time & the dyno will tell if they nail it for the VFR's.

 

How's your 6th gen doing ?

 

 

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Hello from the other side of the world!

glad to hear that the gears are turning in viffer world....

do me a favor gents:  keep your ears peeled for RVF400's for sale in Japan....  
I might crate one and bring it back on the ship.  ;)

That is all 

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On 3/13/2018 at 8:45 AM, Mohawk said:

 

How's your 6th gen doing ?

 

 

 

My 6th gen has been down for a while. My rear hub bearings failed and I was on the fence forever, trying to decide on whether to do a Ducati hub swap or rebuild the original. Eventually I rebuilt the original hub and cush drive, got halfway into installing it and then decided to tuck the brake line into the swing arm. Long story short, the ss line and banjos came in last week, so hopefully I can find some time to get everything assembled and back on the road shortly. 

 

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I've been checking up on this for an entire month,  to see if your bike is back CR and you're not talking!  

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On 2/17/2018 at 10:07 AM, RVFR said:

 Perfect.. Good to hear this.   I know I sorta dropped the ball here,  but,  I mean,  really the project I had/ have going is really dragging,  but not totally outa the picture,  we will see. Though that said,  On a side note,  I ran into a hic up with the headers with how they hook up to the exhaust recess in the head where the stock copper gasket goes. Yea as simple as that my seem,  guess what. The stock OEM gaskets won't work on  36mm tubes tubes,  in fact 36mm tubes just slip in place, but not a good idea to mate SS to aluminum. so a flat copper washer needs to be made.  which is another process to be taken into account $$$,  so the end user doesn't go WTF... I ended up use soft brass,  in which is a tricky bugger in it self.   This sounds great Scottie,  if Interested I can share info  on the little things I found.  just drop me a note, I'd be more than glad to help.  No apple cart here tipped over.

 

 

As ever, the header thread lives on. RVFR, do you think your Two Brothers headers' form at exhaust ports is part of their performance advantage? I meanto ask, is it important to have the configuration that requires the custom gaskets you fabricated?

 

That said, if your man Gabe, Black Widow or Tyga do build a performance header, hopefully they can make a configuration that utilizes stock crush gaskets without compromising performance.

 

I've got to reconfirm - RVFR, when I rode your 5th gen it blew me away how much better pulls across the entire rev range than my 5th gen. Yours with 32000ish miles then I rode it, Power Commander III, Two Brothers headers, Staintune slip-on, dyno tuned to 112hp by expert technician. Mine at that time had 45000ish miles with Power Commander III, 98/99 catless headers, and Staintune slip-on, dyno tuned to 99hp.

 

 

As the years and posts pile up, I lose track of who is who, but thanks to Michael Spence for specifying what we've been seeking:

 

"Good Afternoon Gentlemen,

I see you already have the jigs for the RC46 header and can mass produce them.  Back in the early 2000's Erion racing and Two Brothers racing exhausts built an RC46 header that made between 5-8 extra horsepower by itself.  it wasn't vastly different from the original designs honda use but the primary inner diameters were much larger.  a 98 and probably your standard VFR Header utilize 33mm ID primaries.  the Vtec bikes use a catalyst and 31.5-32mm ID's in stainless.  Two brothers and Erion used 36,  and 38mm ID primaries respectively.  and Both achieved outstanding gains from 3k to redline.  No real suprize considering that's the specs of the RC45 the engine is based upon without respect to the different firing order.  I have at least a dozen gentlemen on the VFR discussion forums,  and perhaps half that more on the VFR World forums that are ready to buy at double what your company charges for their standard faire.

if your company can produce a race ready 36-38mm ID header for the RC46 with the same quality you put into your GSF650 header,  We're ready.

The consensus of gentlemen on the boards agreed on:

 

18 gauge 304 stainless steel with 1.5" tubing primaries, 1.63" tubing secondaries, 2.0" header collector discharge results in:

~35.6 mm ID primaries

~39 mm ID secondaries

~49mm ID header collector discharge


Can you help us?

Respectfully,
Michael Spence" 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Brake line through the swingarm is so tidy, CandyRed, plus you're already elbow deep in there.

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12 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

 

 

As ever, the header thread lives on. RVFR, do you think your Two Brothers headers' form at exhaust ports is part of their performance advantage? I meanto ask, is it important to have the configuration that requires the custom gaskets you fabricated?

 

That said, if your man Gabe, Black Widow or Tyga do build a performance header, hopefully they can make a configuration that utilizes stock crush gaskets without compromising performance.

 

I've got to reconfirm - RVFR, when I rode your 5th gen it blew me away how much better pulls across the entire rev range than my 5th gen. Yours with 32000ish miles then I rode it, Power Commander III, Two Brothers headers, Staintune slip-on, dyno tuned to 112hp by expert technician. Mine at that time had 45000ish miles with Power Commander III, 98/99 catless headers, and Staintune slip-on, dyno tuned to 99hp.

 

 

As the years and posts pile up, I lose track of who is who, but thanks to Michael Spence for specifying what we've been seeking:

 

"Good Afternoon Gentlemen,

I see you already have the jigs for the RC46 header and can mass produce them.  Back in the early 2000's Erion racing and Two Brothers racing exhausts built an RC46 header that made between 5-8 extra horsepower by itself.  it wasn't vastly different from the original designs honda use but the primary inner diameters were much larger.  a 98 and probably your standard VFR Header utilize 33mm ID primaries.  the Vtec bikes use a catalyst and 31.5-32mm ID's in stainless.  Two brothers and Erion used 36,  and 38mm ID primaries respectively.  and Both achieved outstanding gains from 3k to redline.  No real suprize considering that's the specs of the RC45 the engine is based upon without respect to the different firing order.  I have at least a dozen gentlemen on the VFR discussion forums,  and perhaps half that more on the VFR World forums that are ready to buy at double what your company charges for their standard faire.

if your company can produce a race ready 36-38mm ID header for the RC46 with the same quality you put into your GSF650 header,  We're ready.

The consensus of gentlemen on the boards agreed on:

 

18 gauge 304 stainless steel with 1.5" tubing primaries, 1.63" tubing secondaries, 2.0" header collector discharge results in:

~35.6 mm ID primaries

~39 mm ID secondaries

~49mm ID header collector discharge


Can you help us?

Respectfully,
Michael Spence" 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm... those 304 SS dimensions look familiar 

 

Did you consider using the stock exhaust gaskets from an ST?  I believe they will align with the 36mm you are looking for... I forget if it is the ST1100 or 1300; I have a set in the garage I’ll see if I can find the part number

Edited by Rush2112

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Ive just spoken to van demon exhausts here in sydney. Well, greater sydney since they are a couple hours from me.

They currently make systems for things like the kwaka H2.

They can make ones for us in stainless or ti.

Needs to have at least 20 orders to justify the labour to make the jig.

I have an OEM system hanging on the wall they can have to make the jig.

 

Are people still serious about making it happen?

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for sharing the good news, keef! I am definitely interested in a full system, but I need to know cost of system and shipping from AU to USA. It ain't gonna be cheap for us over here. I would be more interested in the stainless exhaust than Titanium since Titanium will probably cost at least $2k if not more due to the more complex bends on a V4 vs. inline engines.

 

Do we have any updates on Tyga/G-Force and Black Widow?

 

 

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On 2/17/2018 at 1:07 PM, RVFR said:

 Perfect.. Good to hear this.   I know I sorta dropped the ball here,  but,  I mean,  really the project I had/ have going is really dragging,  but not totally outa the picture,  we will see. Though that said,  On a side note,  I ran into a hic up with the headers with how they hook up to the exhaust recess in the head where the stock copper gasket goes. Yea as simple as that my seem,  guess what. The stock OEM gaskets won't work on  36mm tubes tubes,  in fact 36mm tubes just slip in place, but not a good idea to mate SS to aluminum. so a flat copper washer needs to be made.  which is another process to be taken into account $$$,  so the end user doesn't go WTF... I ended up use soft brass,  in which is a tricky bugger in it self.   This sounds great Scottie,  if Interested I can share info  on the little things I found.  just drop me a note, I'd be more than glad to help.  No apple cart here tipped over.

 

Did you consider using the stock exhaust gaskets from an ST?  I believe they will align with the 36mm you are looking for... I forget if it is the ST1100 or 1300; I have a set in the garage I’ll see if I can find the part number

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40 minutes ago, Rush2112 said:

 

Did you consider using the stock exhaust gaskets from an ST?  I believe they will align with the 36mm you are looking for... I forget if it is the ST1100 or 1300; I have a set in the garage I’ll see if I can find the part number

 

I wonder what type of crush or flat gaskets were originally supplied with the Two Brothers headers? Rush, thanks for the ST gasket suggestion - I'm curious how that works. Have you used ST gaskets on a VFR before?

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16 minutes ago, sfdownhill said:

 

I wonder what type of crush or flat gaskets were originally supplied with the Two Brothers headers? Rush, thanks for the ST gasket suggestion - I'm curious how that works. Have you used ST gaskets on a VFR before?

 

I found the ST exhaust gaskets referenced somewhere during my previous research into performance headers for the VFR800; unfortunately, I never got the chance to try them with a set of performance headers so they are still in the little plastic Honda pouches...

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Hell, I'm in little plastic Honda pouches myself, at this point of the wild goose egg treasure hunt for VFR headers.

 

I just searched for Mohawk's build to see if he did 'before Two Brothers headers vs after Two Brothers headers' dyno runs. I found the 34 page long thread calledPotential Re-Release Of Two Brothers Racing Vfr800 Headers

where way back in 2014 Duc2V4, you [Rush2112], CandyRed, HighsideNZ, mello dude, Mohawk, voided76, Veefer800canuck, MadScientist, VFRcapn, KevCarver - basically everyone who's anyone on vfrd - was participating in a header thread. Fascinating header history.

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6 hours ago, keef said:

Ive just spoken to van demon exhausts here in sydney. Well, greater sydney since they are a couple hours from me.

They currently make systems for things like the kwaka H2.

They can make ones for us in stainless or ti.

Needs to have at least 20 orders to justify the labour to make the jig.

I have an OEM system hanging on the wall they can have to make the jig.

 

Are people still serious about making it happen?

 

 

 

 

Depends on what $$$ they're asking. 

I'm kind of on the fence at the moment.

 

🤔Do I spend money on the 6g or keep saving coin for rvf1000? 

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They're not asking for any dollars yet. They seem to be small enough to be interested in  niche markets, and big enough to actually make it happen.

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6 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

 

I wonder what type of crush or flat gaskets were originally supplied with the Two Brothers headers? Rush, thanks for the ST gasket suggestion - I'm curious how that works. Have you used ST gaskets on a VFR before?

None supplied. I used GSXR750 ones as they open the port fully & seal better on the TBR Headers wider pipe, with less lip so it still fits the header port. The GSXR washers are the same size squashed as the VFR ones not-squashed.  The TBR headers added 8hp all other mods were left the same, just added the pipes & manually adjusted the fueling using a wideband sensor & gauge plus my memory whilst riding to tweak it before the dyno run.

 

Plus I was looking at a Ladybird RC45 HRC copy in Ti from Japan, but when I checked the pipework its the same ID/OD as the TBR, so apart from being 2x 2-1 compared to the TBR being 2-2-1 its about the same the. the HRC would be best for ultimate power, but the TBR is pretty close & the RC45 left exist will NOT fit without some monification.

 

YMMV.

 

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Oooo, those Ladybird parts are usually pretty tasty! I don't think I ever saw an RC45 header, but I used to lust after the RC51 bits.

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4 hours ago, boOZZIE said:

 

🤔Do I spend money on the 6g or keep saving coin for rvf1000? 

 

You do realise it will not be a VFR. It'll be a track weapon. I'd like them to produce a naked version, but I doubt they will. Either way, it won't be a VFR.

 

Naked versions of the Norton and Ducati V4s are intended and will be very interesting. There's always the Aprilia. Why not that? It's a very good bike. None of them VFRs though. Either track focussed or naked. If you want a bigger VFR, you'll be disappointed.

 

Hang on, there's already a big VFR. Without a doubt, brilliant bike. I like mine naked though 🙂

 

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8 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

Hell, I'm in little plastic Honda pouches myself, at this point of the wild goose egg treasure hunt for VFR headers.

 

I just searched for Mohawk's build to see if he did 'before Two Brothers headers vs after Two Brothers headers' dyno runs. I found the 34 page long thread calledPotential Re-Release Of Two Brothers Racing Vfr800 Headers

where way back in 2014 Duc2V4, you [Rush2112], CandyRed, HighsideNZ, mello dude, Mohawk, voided76, Veefer800canuck, MadScientist, VFRcapn, KevCarver - basically everyone who's anyone on vfrd - was participating in a header thread. Fascinating header history.

 

Mohawk's motad vs two brothers header dyno.

motad vs two brothers.jpg

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On 4/27/2018 at 11:01 AM, Voided76 said:

I've been checking up on this for an entire month,  to see if your bike is back CR and you're not talking!  

 

On 4/27/2018 at 11:57 AM, sfdownhill said:

Brake line through the swingarm is so tidy, CandyRed, plus you're already elbow deep in there.

 

Whelp, so far I have opened up the two factory swing arm holes and bought some grommets. Then I tied string to the factory brake line, pulled the brake line out and string through the tail and then pulled the string through the swing arm. Next I am going to need to get the grommets in the swing arm and ss line through. Then I will need to cut the ss line, attach the banjo fittings and finally reassemble everything. It will get done eventually, I just don't have time like I used to.

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15 hours ago, keef said:

Ive just spoken to van demon exhausts here in sydney. Well, greater sydney since they are a couple hours from me.

They currently make systems for things like the kwaka H2.

They can make ones for us in stainless or ti.

Needs to have at least 20 orders to justify the labour to make the jig.

I have an OEM system hanging on the wall they can have to make the jig.

 

Are people still serious about making it happen?

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'm still very interested. Shipping from Oz would be expensive but if that's what's necessary then that's what's necessary. When they say 20 orders do they mean 20 deposits? Or 20 fully payed?

 

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I'm still in for the headers, but the price and shipping could make me step back. But I'm in

until I say I'm out.

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Shipping?

You get used to paying for it when you live on a giant island.

 

Vandemon have full stainless systems for the mt09 for $890 aus, and full stainless car systems (mustang/toyota 86) for $2500aus.

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Mohawk - very cool info about the GSXR750 crush washers.

 

CandyRed - glad to hear your brake line/swingarm project is moving forward. There was one guy on here [might have been our neighboring vfr site] who found a perfect grommet for the front hole in the swingarm - he even included a part number for it in his thread. It was a cone-shaped nipple that guided the brake hose into the swingarm nicely. I'll look around for it.

 

Keef, Vandemon's exhaust for the H2 looks great. It's good that they'll consider a run of 20 headers for our VFRs. Keep us posted as to progress with them. There have been issues in the past with multiple vfrd members contacting the same supplier, so it will be best if you remain the single point of contact.

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