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Endurance Racing VF500 build.


sportstu

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Looks like you have it covered, re the airbox, I didn't mean an NC30 unit, but rather an aftermarket HRC type. If you build your own, to get volume & avoid carb pressure issues, just build it around the V of the heads & encompass the carbs INSIDE the airbox, so the airbox seals to carb head intake isolators. Here's a pic of a Durban RC30 showing what I mean.

 

last_fcr_in_airbox_ruckansicht_detail.JP

 

http://s11.photobucket.com/user/jamboyNC30/media/NC30/001-3.jpg

 

This gives you the MAXIMUM static volume for the carbs to breathe from !  The Ramair keeps it at ambient pressure regardless of speed. The NC30 uses a central intake scoop under the headstock IIRC there should be room for than on the VF.

 

The only thing I forgot to mention, was that as track only bike, why not dump the alternator & use a total loss system ?  Same with the starter motor, or if you keep the starter motor, rig up some external contacts like a forklift recharger plug, so you can use an external battery to start it.

 

The old HP oil feed, worked by tapping into the right side crankcase end of the HP oil gallery, then run external oil lines from there to replace the existing external oil feeds. When you blank the old external oil feed supply port, that also increases the oil feed to the gearbox. I can't find a pic, but there are instructions here  http://www.daughertymotorsports.com/pdf/V4_Oil_Line_Instructions.pdf

 

Good luck with the Project. If I'm down that way I'll try & look you up.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

Looks like you have it covered, re the airbox, I didn't mean an NC30 unit, but rather an aftermarket HRC type. If you build your own, to get volume & avoid carb pressure issues, just build it around the V of the heads & encompass the carbs INSIDE the airbox, so the airbox seals to carb head intake isolators. Here's a pic of a Durban RC30 showing what I mean.

 

last_fcr_in_airbox_ruckansicht_detail.JP

 

http://s11.photobucket.com/user/jamboyNC30/media/NC30/001-3.jpg

 

This gives you the MAXIMUM static volume for the carbs to breathe from !  The Ramair keeps it at ambient pressure regardless of speed. The NC30 uses a central intake scoop under the headstock IIRC there should be room for than on the VF.

 

The only thing I forgot to mention, was that as track only bike, why not dump the alternator & use a total loss system ?  Same with the starter motor, or if you keep the starter motor, rig up some external contacts like a forklift recharger plug, so you can use an external battery to start it.

 

The old HP oil feed, worked by tapping into the right side crankcase end of the HP oil gallery, then run external oil lines from there to replace the existing external oil feeds. When you blank the old external oil feed supply port, that also increases the oil feed to the gearbox. I can't find a pic, but there are instructions here  http://www.daughertymotorsports.com/pdf/V4_Oil_Line_Instructions.pdf

 

Good luck with the Project. If I'm down that way I'll try & look you up.

 

 

Cheers for the advice. I can't dump the alternator or starter, it's a dead engine start and I won't get an endurance event out of a battery so I'd have to change batteries during the event. The gain is marginal so I'm happy with the charging system in place. The oil modification looks good. I've not seen that one before but I have seen the dave dodge ones with the oil filter adapter plate system which seem to work well.

Cheers

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Fwiw, I did ask if the VF500's benefit from an oil mod since I too heard the horror stories.

A fellow (The) Dutchy told me no...    

 

Following with interest!

 

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Before I bought my VF500 I looked it the oil mod thing really carefully. No evidence either way on the oil mod for the VF500 IMO. No real evidence for any of the VF bikes in my opinion. Loads of anecdotal stuff but nothing remotely like real evidence. Maybe the really crappy VF750S and VF750FD models right at the start in 83 and 84 would have benefited from better top end lubrication but who knows. Its been done to death millions of time already and I have never seen any compelling evidence it improved anything.

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Which paint stripper did you use and I'll try to avoid it? Hard to get decent stuff now since the EU banned dichloromethane.

 

FYI, that's what I thought, too, but it's still all over eBay.  The EU allowed it to be sold to "professionals" for use in licenced premises, but there's no enforcement of that law on eBay, so sellers just assume (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) that their buyers are allowed to buy it.  I bought some recently: 252471247040.  Legitimate companies like Screwfix and B&Q cannot risk getting caught, so they don't sell it.

 

Ciao,

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I got the frame back today, Oh how I wish I'd cut all the unnecessary lugs off before coating but they'll have to stay on now. Progress is a bit slow at the moment. The swing arm mounts and various other bits have been sent for plating and the machine shop still have the gearbox. Image036.jpg

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On 23/11/2016 at 9:08 PM, jeremyr62 said:

Before I bought my VF500 I looked it the oil mod thing really carefully. No evidence either way on the oil mod for the VF500 IMO. No real evidence for any of the VF bikes in my opinion. Loads of anecdotal stuff but nothing remotely like real evidence. Maybe the really crappy VF750S and VF750FD models right at the start in 83 and 84 would have benefited from better top end lubrication but who knows. Its been done to death millions of time already and I have never seen any compelling evidence it improved anything.

 

I looked into it in depth too & yes you are correct no real cam lobe wear issues like the 750. That said, Honda truly cocked up by sending unfiltered oil to the plain bearing head at low pressure. The high pressure kit is not there primarily to stop that wear, it's there to provide clean filtered hp oil to the CAM bearings. This will increase the longevity of the engine & increases the head cooling a little. Mine definately ran cooler after that mod.

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Well if you have to keep the charging circuit, cut the rotor down, rather machine it thinner or cur it back so it does not cover the whole of the stator, or both. A VFR400 race generator may fit on the 500 crank. As it will be running at high rpm most of the time you don't need a high output charging circuit.

 

Swap the battery to a lightweight lithium unit too, that will save about 3kg of weight front behind the centre of mass.

 

frame looks good ? 

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It's easier to fit a flywheel from a GSXR. They are about 700g. I'll be posting some pics when it's done but it is essentially the same modification that has been done on the VFR400NC30 before. You have to machine a mounting for the windings to fit inside the cover instead of to the crank cases but one that is done it's more or less a straight fit. The crank taper and primary drive splines are the same for both bikes. Definitely going with lithium battery though, they are amazing.

 

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Awesome work with all of this but please beware of re-using those old, fatigued valves and trying to push them into high revs.  New valves are available, not cheap but they're out there unless you have your old decrepit valves examined very closely, I wouldn't go through all this using 30+ year old used valves.  I just recently rebuilt an 84 with new springs, one of my perfect looking used valves snapped at the cotter and ruined the engine just 1500 miles after the rebuild.  Just sayin, it happens ALOT with these bikes, ALOT.  The valves are the weak point of these engines, not necessarily the springs, CCT's, or cams, it's the actual valves in my very humble opinion.  I know from first hand experience unfortunately, taking every precaution making sure the valves LOOK great wasn't enough for me.  I replaced 3 valves with slightly damaged tips and the rest were perfect (looking anyway).   

 

Props on actually finding bearings, you must have gotten lucky they happened to have the color yours needed.  Great luck.

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Custom valves available from http://shop.kpmivalvetrain.com/

 

They would probably do a custom kit (valves, seats, guides, springs, retainers, keepers), but I'd guess that would run $800USD for the valves alone, probably $1500USD total. That's a lot of money when the bikes aren't worth that much most times.

 

But I bet there would be a handful of people who would buy a full kit.

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On 11/23/2016 at 1:08 PM, jeremyr62 said:

Before I bought my VF500 I looked it the oil mod thing really carefully. No evidence either way on the oil mod for the VF500 IMO. No real evidence for any of the VF bikes in my opinion. Loads of anecdotal stuff but nothing remotely like real evidence. Maybe the really crappy VF750S and VF750FD models right at the start in 83 and 84 would have benefited from better top end lubrication but who knows. Its been done to death millions of time already and I have never seen any compelling evidence it improved anything.

Hey Jeremy, nice to see you over here too.  I just thought of something, have you ever seen/heard of an oil modded bike dropping a valve?  I can't say I have. 

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Thanks for the advice. I decided to do the oil mod anyway, more oil can't be a bad thing and while the engine is down it would be daft not to.

Image042.jpgPlug out and rag in there.

Image041.jpgHole drilled and dressed with a file

Image044.jpgNPT fitting screwed in

Image045.jpgElbow ready for hose. Dead easy job with the engine down.

 

 

Image043.jpg

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14 hours ago, jrodrims27 said:

Awesome work with all of this but please beware of re-using those old, fatigued valves and trying to push them into high revs.  New valves are available, not cheap but they're out there unless you have your old decrepit valves examined very closely, I wouldn't go through all this using 30+ year old used valves.  I just recently rebuilt an 84 with new springs, one of my perfect looking used valves snapped at the cotter and ruined the engine just 1500 miles after the rebuild.  Just sayin, it happens ALOT with these bikes, ALOT.  The valves are the weak point of these engines, not necessarily the springs, CCT's, or cams, it's the actual valves in my very humble opinion.  I know from first hand experience unfortunately, taking every precaution making sure the valves LOOK great wasn't enough for me.  I replaced 3 valves with slightly damaged tips and the rest were perfect (looking anyway).  

 

Props on actually finding bearings, you must have gotten lucky they happened to have the color yours needed.  Great luck.

It is a tough decision with cost. I have replaced the valves that show any signs of wear, particularly around the seat but I have kept most of them because they look perfect. I will be running standard springs, cams and rev limit so I'm not asking too much more of them. If cost was no restriction I would surely be getting all new. Hopefully all that extra oil  will help!!

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2 hours ago, Dutchy said:

So what date/race are you aiming for the bike to debute?

Hey Dutchy. It's going to be entered in the "Endurance Legends" race at Donington Park on 6th May 2017. That will almost certainly be it's only race!!

http://www.endurancelegends.co.uk/

 

Here is some of the more serious competition

http://www.motorcyclelive.co.uk/feature/suzuki-katana-endurance-racer-build/

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4 hours ago, sportstu said:

It is a tough decision with cost. I have replaced the valves that show any signs of wear, particularly around the seat but I have kept most of them because they look perfect. I will be running standard springs, cams and rev limit so I'm not asking too much more of them. If cost was no restriction I would surely be getting all new. Hopefully all that extra oil  will help!!

Very smart decision to go with the oiling mod kit, I, myself haven't heard of a dropped valve using an oiling kit.  Not saying it hasn't, can't or won't happen of course.  

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19 hours ago, jrodrims27 said:

Hey Jeremy, nice to see you over here too.  I just thought of something, have you ever seen/heard of an oil modded bike dropping a valve?  I can't say I have. 

Yes, I frequent all the VF groups. I don't get out much either :-)

No, can't say I have heard of a oil modded bike dropping a valve. But then again there are plenty of high mileage bikes out there that haven't been modded and haven't dropped valves either. Oil modded bikes are much more likely to receive plenty of TLC too which can't hurt longevity.

Your failure was very unusual because it was an intake valve. I haven't seen that before. You were very unlucky IMO.

As the OPs engine is being raced, an oil mod while he has it apart makes sense. It will be really interesting to see how it holds up.

 

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19 hours ago, sportstu said:

Hey Dutchy. It's going to be entered in the "Endurance Legends" race at Donington Park on 6th May 2017. That will almost certainly be it's only race!!

http://www.endurancelegends.co.uk/

 

 

 

 

hhhmmmm,   if I'm still UB40 by then and there's camping at the track.............. 

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On 11/29/2016 at 3:02 PM, jeremyr62 said:

Yes, I frequent all the VF groups. I don't get out much either :-)

No, can't say I have heard of a oil modded bike dropping a valve. But then again there are plenty of high mileage bikes out there that haven't been modded and haven't dropped valves either. Oil modded bikes are much more likely to receive plenty of TLC too which can't hurt longevity.

Your failure was very unusual because it was an intake valve. I haven't seen that before. You were very unlucky IMO.

As the OPs engine is being raced, an oil mod while he has it apart makes sense. It will be really interesting to see how it holds up.

 

I actually do have a bunch of luck, unfortunately, it's almost always bad.  Oh well.  

 

I'm just trying to figure out a way where I don't have to pull my engine, rebuild another set of heads and all that sort of fun stuff again.  This OPs engine will be a step closer to being a bit safer with the oiling mod.  If the oiling mod does really provide more lubrication which in turn results in better cooling of the valve train components then at least you try to improve on two elements (lack of lubrication and excessive heat) that COULD clearly cause premature stress and damage on the valves.  An oiling kit wouldn't have prevented my unusual cotter groove break on an intake valve with a perfect tip but I want to minimize my chances for encountering normal, everyday, not-surprising, run-of-the-mill type VF500F valve dropping.   

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A little bit of progress. I've had the heads aqua blasted and had the casting seams removed in the ports, looking good. I'm not sure whether to paint them or leave them natural, they do look a bit different. New valve seals and o rings on the rocker shafts, plus 3 new valves. I had .15 removed from the face.Image047.jpgImage048.jpg

Image049.jpg

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N-I-C-E, very, very nice!  They look really cool with the natural aluminum color.  Coincidentally, I had to replace only 3 valves myself when I rebuilt my 84 engine (before it blew up).  I wonder if it was the same 3, I replaced two rear exhausts and a front intake.  Anyway, awesome job, very well done!  I'm super jealous! I hope you'll be able to show us your final product and maybe even a video of it in real action.  

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