Unleashing 5th Gen Factory Power + DMr + Thurn MS

[CandyRedRC46]

Why on earth would you upgrade the injectors? The injectors weren't even upgraded on the Torocharger kit. There is no way that you are running anywhere near 100% duty cycle. You are going to need to locate an extremely high reading dyno to pull 118 whp out of a more or less slip on and fuel tune vfr800.

[2k1GoneWild]

Prior to Dyno tuning a V-4 , it's extremely important the injectors are outputting not only "max" volume but also within 1% of each other, otherwise any AFR tuning may just be compensating for the mis-matching of the injectors and you'll never get the max power output of that particular engine. Remember this tune is always about unleashing, for the most part, what's already existing from the factory. The Black Widow headers were selected because they are very high quality fit and finish, minimal pipe joints connections and clamps, eliminate the cat, and are readily available from both compentent and highly communicative shop. Those headers arrived and were installed, with zero issues, within  7 days of placing the order, that's very important to me, I'll give the good folks at Black Widow a full 5 stars across the board, everything went perfect at a very fair price. That's how I prefer to do business, pay the money and get the best product, no bull. As far as I am concerned, right now Black Widow is the "clear choice" and the "best in business" for 5th Gen VFR headers, period.

IMG_4195.MOV

[CandyRedRC46]

On 11/7/2016 at 2:39 PM, 2k1GoneWild said:

Prior to Dyno tuning a V-4 , it's extremely important the injectors are outputting not only "max" volume but also within 1% of each other, otherwise any AFR tuning may just be compensating for the mis-matching of the injectors and you'll never get the max power output of that particular engine. Remember this tune is always about unleashing, for the most part, what's already existing from the factory. The Black Widow headers were selected because they are very high quality fit and finish, minimal pipe joints connections and clamps, eliminate the cat, and are readily available from both compentent and highly communicative shop. Those headers arrived and were installed, with zero issues, within  7 days of placing the order, that's very important to me, I'll give the good folks at Black Widow a full 5 stars across the board, everything went perfect at a very fair price. That's how I prefer to do business, pay the money and get the best product, no bull. As far as I am concerned, right now Black Widow is the "clear choice" and the "best in business" for 5th Gen VFR headers, period.

IMG_4195.MOV

 

 

I totally agree with you about the injectors needing to be clean and balanced with flow rate and spray pattern, that is why I had these guys rebuild, ultra sonic clean and inspect the flow rate/spray pattern of my factory injectors. The flow rate variance was less than 1% and spray pattern perfect across the board after cleaning.

 

https://precisionautoinjectors.com/

 

But, I am going to disagree with you on needing oversize injectors. That is simply not the case.

 

As far as your header choice goes, fitment and customer service may be great, I cannot dispute that, but as mohawk stated, this is not a performance header and has nothing to do with unleashing the factory power. The black widow header is at best, comparable to a 1998/1999 factory header and at worst, a compromised 1998/1999 header.

 

You should read up on the Tyga Header group buy. There is significant information on the topic of headers in that thread.

 

Also as far as tuning goes, with Rapid Bike, you can tune each cylinder's fuel mapping individually with multiple wide band o2 sensors. Even with fresh injectors and a starter valve sync, you would be surprised how different each cylinder's fuel needs are.

[2k1GoneWild]

I never ever considered "oversizing" injectors, but I would get then within 1% with max flow possible.

 

The group buys are not practical in my situation and circumstance, it's just too many steps and time consuming and the purported benefits do not outweigh all the various inconveniences. Black Widow headers will be able to hang right in there with any other header, they do it right and know how to serve global customers. Makes more sense to me, it's a personal preference for adequate performance and timeliness that matters to me, if you know what I mean :)

[thtanner]

Honestly I think a Rapidbike Racing unit would provide the most notable changes in regards to performance on this project.

 

No need for a German ECU and a Power Commander...

 

That being said, I'm pretty sure 2k1GoneWild is more interested in doing 'their own thing' instead of taking advice, suggestions, etc. They made a path, and they're sticking to it.. for better or worse.

[CandyRedRC46]

Sorry about the assumption on your injector choice, that was the impression that you gave me.

 

As far as the header goes, I sent you a link to the group buy, not for you to sign up for the group buy, but for you to read up about the difference between generic catless headers and actual performance headers. The group buy doesn't seem to be moving very fast, but actual performance headers, that were made for the fifth gen a while back, do pop up for sale from time to time. Two Brothers Racing and Erion Racing were the only performance headers ever made for the VFR800. All other headers use the basic factory 1998 / 1999 header layout and offer negligible power gains. 

 

 

I was able to find a Two Brothers header and it makes a huge difference in power. I replaced my original catted headers with a set of motads in 2009 and even with a slip on/air filter/power commander/dyno tune (basically the mods that you listed), performance did not change much (101 whp on a properly set up dyno). It wasn't until modifying the velocity stacks, switching to Rapid Bike and locating a set of actual race headers a couple years ago, that the performance of the bike noticeably changed. With the basic bolt-ons that you listed, I pretty much was stuck at running the quarter in 10.99 @ 120. After Rapid Bike, velocity stacks and race header I went to 10.8 at 128. 

 

I am not trying to knock you or your build down, but just trying to get you to realize, many of us (mohawk, Highsidenz and I) have already been down that path before and it was a waste of time and money.

 

Here attached is Mohawk's before (generic catless header) and after Two Brother's header dyno. He also has upgraded cams/ velocity stacks/ Rapid Bike, so that is why his base line numbers (112.59) are much higher than other vfr's.

 

 

[2k1GoneWild]

I know, I know but this does not have to be all so difficult tracking down exotic bits and pieces of this and that for whatever, rather just obtain mainstream, high quality "in business" proven products with living service and support, and get on with it, this whole thing should not take more that 2 months and $5k, it will hang right in there with the best of them, without all the fuss and fanfare, bottom line is this : no single item took more than 2-3 weeks or cost more than $500.-, case closed, now go run it and enjoy it :)

[2k1GoneWild]

58 minutes ago, thtanner said:

Honestly I think a Rapidbike Racing unit would provide the most notable changes in regards to performance on this project.

 

No need for a German ECU and a Power Commander...

 

That being said, I'm pretty sure 2k1GoneWild is more interested in doing 'their own thing' instead of taking advice, suggestions, etc. They made a path, and they're sticking to it.. for better or worse.

The German ECU cost $130 and the Power Commader lll was $300 and both installed in less than an hour with no fuss it's going to get the job done, no more EPA in my ECU and I can load fuel maps in seconds.  I'm sure RapidBike is fantastic, but it's a bit pricey and in the end won't make that much difference for my purpose is just to unleash the factory power that's already there and not go there crazy spending money.RapidBike cost 3 times as much money. I bought the bike for $3k and put $4k back into it. The $1000 I spent on new Corbin seat and clutch window are just to add some comfort and pizazz. The Black Widow SS headers and high level Staintune is $1000 spent to have a first rate exhaust. The Power Commander lll, the ECU from Germany, the Air Box double snorkel and K & N filter with the Gear Indicator and a few other frills is another $1000-, then round it off with a fresh DMr suspension another $1000.-, that's about it $4000, well spent for long term investment quality mods, the whole thing took a month or two and I'm riding with the best of the VFR's :)

 

[thtanner]

11 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

The German ECU cost $130 and the Power Commader lll was $300 and both installed in less than an hour with no fuss it's going to get the job done, no more EPA in my ECU and I can load fuel maps in seconds.  I'm sure RapidBike is fantastic, but it's a bit pricey and in the end won't make that much difference for my purpose is just to unleash the factory power that's already there and not go there crazy spending money.RapidBike cost 3 times as much money. I bought the bike for $3k and put $4k back into it. The $1000 I spent on new Corbin seat and clutch window are just to add some comfort and pizazz. The Black Widow SS headers and high level Staintune is $1000 spent to have a first rate exhaust. The Power Commander lll, the ECU from Germany, the Air Box double snorkel and K & N filter with the Gear Indicator and a few other frills is another $1000-, then round it off with a fresh DMr suspension another $1000.-, that's about it $4000, well spent for long term investment quality mods, the whole thing took a month or two and I'm riding with the best of the VFR's :)

 

 

I'm sure you'll enjoy your setup, no doubt. The seat and staintune are the two best 'smiles per miles' upgrades anyways. That being said, I still feel that if someone is trying to address performance, the Rapidbike Racing module is better money spent than an ECU and PC. I'd have lost the windowless clutch cover to gain it, personally.

[CandyRedRC46]

1 hour ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

I know, I know but this does not have to be all so difficult tracking down exotic bits and pieces of this and that for whatever, rather just obtain mainstream, high quality "in business" proven products with living service and support, and get on with it, this whole thing should not take more that 2 months and $5k, it will hang right in there with the best of them, without all the fuss and fanfare, bottom line is this : no single item took more than 2-3 weeks or cost more than $500.-, case closed, now go run it and enjoy it :)

 

Black widow is not proven and it will not hang with the best of them. It will hang with the factory 1998 and 1999 VFR800 header. It is not a performance header. Any VFR with a performance header will run away from you after 8000 RPMs. You do not need service and support for a Two Brother's or Erion header. All you need to do is find one, and install it.

 

Furthermore the German ECU being a performance option is a myth and it is still tuned to run with a restrictive factory airbox/exhaust and on 87 [(RON+MON)/2] octane.

[2k1GoneWild]

If you insist, fine, but maybe not as much you're saying, I'll have solid Dyno numbers at the end, you can tell the Black Widow headers are a "cut above" as soon as you open the box, the Install with no fuss and run great through the entire power band. The idea is to have a free flowing, cat-less, all stainless exhaust, I'm not sure where you're getting your info but I'm telling you Black Widow gets the job done just fine in the "real world".

[2k1GoneWild]

1 hour ago, thtanner said:

 

I'm sure you'll enjoy your setup, no doubt. The seat and staintune are the two best 'smiles per miles' upgrades anyways. That being said, I still feel that if someone is trying to address performance, the Rapidbike Racing module is better money spent than an ECU and PC. I'd have lost the windowless clutch cover to gain it, personally.

Possibly true but to what degree ? Power Commander will get it done with off the shelf maps until it gets custom mapped on the Dyno, in the end, Power Commanders offers more options with connectivity within their network of tuners. I'd say this choice is as much based upon circumstance and siutuation, if RapidBike was in the same price point. But being 3 times as much, I just can't justify it. The clutch window is just some pizazz factor, it's a totally different type of bean :)

[thtanner]

39 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

Possibly true but to what degree ? Power Commander will get it done with off the shelf maps until it gets custom mapped on the Dyno, in the end, Power Commanders offers more options with connectivity within their network of tuners. I'd say this choice is as much based upon circumstance and siutuation, if RapidBike was in the same price point. But being 3 times as much, I just can't justify it. The clutch window is just some pizazz factor, it's a totally different type of bean :)

 

Whatever you need to justify it to yourself, but the Rapidbike Racing is leagues above a PC and would have been a better investment long term.

Enjoy your ride!

[CandyRedRC46]

1 hour ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

If you insist, fine, but maybe not as much you're saying, I'll have solid Dyno numbers at the end, you can tell the Black Widow headers are a "cut above" as soon as you open the box, the Install with no fuss and run great through the entire power band. The idea is to have a free flowing, cat-less, all stainless exhaust, I'm not sure where you're getting your info but I'm telling you Black Widow gets the job done just fine in the "real world".

 

I am getting my info from the fact that they are exactly the same internal diameter as the 98/99 headers, have less than ideal merges and are not anywhere near equal length. You would get more or less the same results from 1998 and 1999 factory headers.

 

Catted headers have around 28mm inner diameter primaries, Catless headers have around 32mm inner diameter, while true performance headers have at least 35mm inner diameter. That is just the primaries... The secondaries and collector are also restrictive above 8000 rpms (where you will be above 150 mph). This is all proven by the dyno graph I just posted.

 

There are countless Two Brothers, Erion Racing and Tyga header threads right now that go into great deal about why headers like Black widow are just stock replacement and not performance oriented.

[CandyRedRC46]

51 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

Possibly true but to what degree ? Power Commander will get it done with off the shelf maps until it gets custom mapped on the Dyno, in the end, Power Commanders offers more options with connectivity within their network of tuners. I'd say this choice is as much based upon circumstance and siutuation, if RapidBike was in the same price point. But being 3 times as much, I just can't justify it. The clutch window is just some pizazz factor, it's a totally different type of bean :)

 

Power commander does not offer more options. It does not even offer ignition tuning. It is still just a simple fuel correction device and will not let you take advantage of higher octane fuels. I do not follow what you mean by connectivity. I also do not follow where you got three times as much. You are paying $300 for a power commander, $150 for a german ecu and another $200 or $300 for a dyno tune. That is about $700, no? Rapid bike is $525 for fuel only tuning and $695 for fuel plus ignition tuning. You would have saved money in the long run.....

[2k1GoneWild]

3 hours ago, thtanner said:

Honestly I think a Rapidbike Racing unit would provide the most notable changes in regards to performance on this project.

 

No need for a German ECU and a Power Commander...

 

That being said, I'm pretty sure 2k1GoneWild is more interested in doing 'their own thing' instead of taking advice, suggestions, etc. They made a path, and they're sticking to it.. for better or worse.

Power Commander has fuel maps for Euro ECU's, that's why I got the ECU from Germany and it not that pricey, only $130 and you can tell the difference running the bike. 

 What about the "readily, obtainability factor?" I actually need the stuff to show up and install it, the stuff like Two Brothers and even Staintune are no longer producing, I'm actually getting it done here with whats actually available and it's going great ! :)

[thtanner]

www.rapidbike.us - readily available

[2k1GoneWild]

15 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

 

Power commander does not offer more options. It does not even offer ignition tuning. It is still just a simple fuel correction device and will not let you take advantage of higher octane fuels. I do not follow what you mean by connectivity. I also do not follow where you got three times as much. You are paying $300 for a power commander, $150 for a german ecu and another $200 or $300 for a dyno tune. That is about $700, no? Rapid bike is $525 for fuel only tuning and $695 for fuel plus ignition tuning. You would have saved money in the long run.....

For me it's "excessive overkill" geared towards the "big spenders" in racing community, to tell you the truth we have spent more time posting comments that it took me to install the PC lll and load a fuel map file. I'm not going to enjoy as much over spending on any one given product. I'm sure RapidBike is fantastic, but not for my particular circumstance and situation. I called Power Commander in Las Vegas and validated just what I wanted, if you ask me Power Commander has both a bigger stake and investment in the global tuning community, that was another factor in my choice. Plus there is a DynoTech tuner within 2 hours away, it's a combination of factors in the end.

[2k1GoneWild]

2 hours ago, thtanner said:

 

I'm sure you'll enjoy your setup, no doubt. The seat and staintune are the two best 'smiles per miles' upgrades anyways. That being said, I still feel that if someone is trying to address performance, the Rapidbike Racing module is better money spent than an ECU and PC. I'd have lost the windowless clutch cover to gain it, personally.

I'm not racing, I just want simple, proven products that are affordable . RapidBike wants to sell three products and it totals $1695-, it's too much cost and complexity for my blood when PC lll gets it all done seconds and minutes, it's good enough without all the fuss.

[thtanner]

Whatever makes you sleep better at night! You were advised about a $700 item, but you want to inflate the price up with other stuff to prove your point. I've had enough with politicians bending truth to make them sound smart this year that this is giving me a headache.

 

For posterity sake I will note, again, the Rapidbike Racing module is superior to a Power Commander + Dynotune. Anyone looking for the best bang for your buck tuning upgrade should look there. 

[2k1GoneWild]

12 minutes ago, thtanner said:

Whatever makes you sleep better at night! You were advised about a $700 item, but you want to inflate the price up with other stuff to prove your point. I've had enough with politicians bending truth to make them sound smart this year that this is giving me a headache.

 

For posterity sake I will note, again, the Rapidbike Racing module is superior to a Power Commander + Dynotune. Anyone looking for the best bang for your buck tuning upgrade should look there. 

Except it does costs quite a bit more and there are three products necessary to perform a full range of tuning, I'm sure it's "better" but I'm just moving fuel mao files, I'm not tuning and when I am going to tune it will be at a DynoTech center and the tech will be custom tuning it once, when I'm ready. I'm not an ongoing tuner, I'm just doing a "one time " deal here. But if RapidBike were the nearly same price and had a local tuner, I would definitely have considered going that route.

[CandyRedRC46]

52 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

For me it's "excessive overkill" geared towards the "big spenders" in racing community, to tell you the truth we have spent more time posting comments that it took me to install the PC lll and load a fuel map file. I'm not going to enjoy as much over spending on any one given product. I'm sure RapidBike is fantastic, but not for my particular circumstance and situation. I called Power Commander in Las Vegas and validated just what I wanted, if you ask me Power Commander has both a bigger stake and investment in the global tuning community, that was another factor in my choice. Plus there is a DynoTech tuner within 2 hours away, it's a combination of factors in the end.

 

I don't understand your logic here... It's not excessive over kill. Its proper fuel/ignition tuning, that takes no longer to install than a PC. Its not over spending, $300+$150+20+$300= $770 is actually over spending when compared to $525 for a Rapid bike Evo or $695 for a Rapid bike Racing. I don't understand what you mean by bigger stake in the global tuning community and investment... Dimsport is huge in Europe and in racing, power commander is not. Rapid bikes are not model specific (only the harness is) so they can be used on multiple bikes (power commander is model specific) so rapid bike is obviously a better investment as it would be easier to sell and transferable to a new bike if you traded bikes. 

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

Except it does costs quite a bit more and there are three products necessary to perform a full range of tuning, I'm sure it's "better" but I'm just moving fuel mao files, I'm not tuning and when I am going to tune it will be at a DynoTech center and the tech will be custom tuning it once, when I'm ready. I'm not an ongoing tuner, I'm just doing a "one time " deal here. But if RapidBike were the nearly same price and had a local tuner, I would definitely have considered going that route.

 

I still don't get how you can say Rapid bike cost more, when you are spending $770 on PC, ECU, o2 eliminators and dyno versus $525 or $695 for Rapid bike, which is self tuning and needs no other hardware.... You don't need a tuner and you can keep modding your bike and letting the rapid bike adjust for each mod on its own. 

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

I'm not racing, I just want simple, proven products that are affordable . RapidBike wants to sell three products and it totals $1695-, it's too much cost and complexity for my blood when PC lll gets it all done seconds and minutes, it's good enough without all the fuss.

 

Where are you getting this from? You do not need three products and you do not need to spend $1695. Where is the added complexity? What are the 3 products? Also 160 plus mph is racing....

[boOZZIE]

Just out of interest 2k1, did u do a dyno run b4 u started mods so to compare accurately what the before and after stats are?

And IIRC CRRC46 was offering (some years back now)a dyno run back 2 back with his bike 

[2k1GoneWild]

29 minutes ago, boOZZIE said:

Just out of interest 2k1, did u do a dyno run b4 u started mods so to compare accurately what the before and after stats are?

And IIRC CRRC46 was offering (some years back now)a dyno run back 2 back with his bike 

 Nope I don't have the time of the cash for that, I'll be into this whole VFR episode about $8k total spent including $1000 in riding and bike gear. I took the cash from an investment fund that was earning about 3-5 %, so I'm done with the spending. I'm looking forward to enjoying my VFR for the next 10 years. I really like gear driven cams because I had a brand new MV Agusta SS America in 1978, then I also had 2 new Ducati's and so I like the way the VFR delivers power. This build is just about reasonably unleashing the factory power and enjoy a fully free reving engine. It's been going great, next the Staintune will get here from Australia and I'll install the o2 eliminator and the adjust the fuel map. It started with around 80 hp, it's up over 100 hp now, when I get the upgraded Stator  and Rectifier back from Germany with the clutch window, I'll be ready to take it to DynoTech for the custom tuning, at that point I'll do a before and after in a single Dyno session. I know it will be up over 110 hp, just how close it will get to 118 hp will have to be seen. It's been really great and fun, for $8k total spent, I'm ready to put as many miles as I want on this bike, and would never plan to sell it :)

[2k1GoneWild]

7 hours ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

Sorry about the assumption on your injector choice, that was the impression that you gave me.

 

As far as the header goes, I sent you a link to the group buy, not for you to sign up for the group buy, but for you to read up about the difference between generic catless headers and actual performance headers. The group buy doesn't seem to be moving very fast, but actual performance headers that were made for the fifth gen a while back do pop up for sale for time to time. Two Brothers Racing and Erion Racing were the only performance headers ever made for the VFR800. All other headers use the basic factory 1998 / 1999 header layout and offer negligible power gains. 

 

 

I was able to find a Two Brothers header and it makes a huge difference in power. I replaced my original catted headers with a set of motads in 2009 and even with a slip on/air filter/power commander/dyno tune (basically the mods that you listed), performance did not change much. It wasn't until modifying the velocity stacks, switching to Rapid Bike and locating a set of actual race headers a couple years ago, that the performance of the bike noticeably changed. With the basic bolt-ons that you listed, I pretty much was stuck at running the quarter in 10.99 @ 120. After Rapid Bike, velocity stacks and race header I went to 10.8 at 128. 

 

I am not trying to knock you or your build down, but just trying to get you to realize, many of us (mohawk, Highsidenz and I) have already been down that path before and it was a waste of time and money.

 

Here attached is Mohawk's before (generic catless header) and after Two Brother's header dyno. He also has upgraded cams/ velocity stacks/ Rapid Bike, so that is why his base line numbers (112.59) are much higher than other vfr's.

 

 

Yup that's right about where I plan to be without all the fuss, let's wait and see how close my numbers are when I get done because my little set of tuning tricks is pretty easily done. I can tell you right now it's running real strong and I still have not installed the o2 eliminator and the Staintune along with that fuel map. It will be about another month before the stator and clutch stuff gets sent and comes back from Germany, I'm really enjoying the added responsiveness and full power band. I'm doing a little but each weekend as stuff shows up. This weekend is DMr and possibly the Staintune, it's landed in USA according to the tracker :)