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rc51jim

Not happy with my Delkevic high-mount slip-on

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6 hours ago, MooseMoose said:
Yeah, yeah, you shill that all the time.
 
It's also $850 for a 5th gen with the tuning module, which is a lot more than a generic chinese can. The Delkevic slip ons are $160-300 or so. About the price of a PCiii (you can get them for less than $250 new) running the generic maps for a stock 2000, which massively improve low-mid smoothness for around town riding.
 
An $850 solution with some auto tuning features might be nice, but it's a hell of a big step up in price from a $200 slip on. Way too rich for what you get from my point of view. Though @Hibbard992 might race his old girl and want to find  a few tenths of a second down the straights, I guess.

 


The RB race is $695 and requires no tuning module (MY TUNING BIKE: CAN-BUS AUTO TUNING MODULE) for the 00-01, which already has narrow band o2 sensors. Honestly even a 98/99 wouldn't require a tuning module unless you wanted custom mapping, because unless you are extensively modified, the included mapping will be very close.

 

The wide band o2 kit, is always just an option, for people that want to get that last couple percent of perfection in their mapping. I ran my RB racing for a good month, with no o2 sensors, before I had bungs welded into my Two Brothers headers. The mapping was still light years above my custom made power commander map and my old RB2 OTS map I had before as well.

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5 hours ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

 


The pc2 was the one that had ignition advance. Most of them are lost/broken by now and they require a laptop with a serial port for tuning. The other down fall of the old pc2 was that ignition advance (I believe) wasn't 3 dimensional mapped, it was just a knob on the side to add a blanket amount of advance over the entire map, which is a bad thing.
 

I asked because I already have a PC2; was on my yellow bike when I bought it.  I also have a PCIII USB that works fine, and a PCV that I was never able to get working properly.  But it sounds like it wouldn't be very useful to have a primitive advance capability.

 

Ciao,

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Yeah, from reading this:

http://sfriday.com/VFR800/pcii.htm

It appears that there might actually be an ignition table, so it could be worth a shot.  don't know too much about the pc2's or how the 5th gen's respond to timing adjustments, but from what I have heard, it seems to not respond as well as the 6th gen. If you can find a tuner that is experience with PC2's and the ignition feature, you might be able to add 2 or three degrees in the midrange. Its a shame that the tuner didn't try to properly map out the ignition table in that article.

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14 hours ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

 


The RB race is $695 and requires no tuning module (MY TUNING BIKE: CAN-BUS AUTO TUNING MODULE) for the 00-01, which already has narrow band o2 sensors.

 

Site says in giant red letters that you need a My Tuning Bike module or adaptive tuning doesn't work, which boosts the price for the racer module another $325. It really looks like the race module costs over a grand for the 5th gen. If that's not the case, then you might look into your website design as it is not clear that it can be used at all without the extra bits and I can't be the only one to dismiss that out of hand.

 

That said, why would I pay $700 to run a generic map and NOT get adaptive tuning? I mean, that's what your site says is the point of the module. And, that's still a pretty big jump over a cheap mod like a new can.

 

I paid a touch over $200 for a PCiii -- same as my crappy muffler -- so I can save that $475, or maybe put it into making my suspension better, which is a much better proposition if you weigh more than the 135lbs this bike is sprung for. If I cared about pure power, I could get a high horsepower track map and some detuned street maps from a local tuner for a few hundred bucks and, again, still have money left over compared the base model rapid bike racer module.

 

It's a 17 year old bike to ride on the street and the rare track day or Class.  If the fueling was consistent coming off the starter valves and in the lower RPM range I wouldn't even have spent the $200 on anything but suspension, but for all I enjoy the 5th gen, the stock fueling sucks. Honda screwed that pooch, alas.

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It's not my site. I just put together the group buy. I have told Yaman that the 00-01 actually come with factory o2 sensors and do not NEED the optional my tuning bike, but as you can imagine, the fifth gen vfr800 is not the only bike that they are concerned with and he is a busy guy.

With that said, I can tell you for a fact that rapid bike racing and Evo will work fine with out the factory o2 sensors or optional wide band, just the same as a pc5 will work without the optional auto tune module.

$700 is a large buy in, especially for a $3000 bike, I understand that, but keep in mind, a rapid bike evo is the equivalent of a pc5 plus auto tune module and a rapid bike racing is the equivalent of a pc5 plus ignition module plus auto tune module with optional launch control/traction control/engine brake control/etc, which would be well over $1000 anyways. Nonetheless, it isn't for everyone and I am sure plenty of people would be happy with a simple pc3.

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Awe,    the ole RB vs. topic raises it's head again  Me, 98 5th gen with a PC3,  works great,   From what I've read and heard is the 5th gen doesn't like much advance except maybe a degree mid range, It definitely doesn't want it up top.  So for me the solution was to keep it simple,  but now that you've brought up the PC2 ?  might have to just see what I can come up with. Who knows it might be that mysterious missing  HP   LOL.    yat the tim adding a $700+ tuner to the VFR ain't what I was looking to do. Besides,  I'll put those funds towards a new header build  :goofy:

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On 12/13/2016 at 7:58 PM, CandyRedRC46 said:

It's not my site.
 

 

Sorry, dude. Thought it was yours and I was helping explaining that confusion.

 

And, yes, I know the rapid bike is all that stuff. I just can't use all that stuff. Both literally -- the 5th gen is really a primitive FI system compared to 6th gen and more modern bikes -- and philosophically. I've been riding for 25 years and have 100K miles on VFRs. I know for a fact that they're a lot more bike than I am a rider. Nothing quite so humbling as thinking you're going as fast as possible on the track and having an instructor, riding the same bike,  with a passenger on back, pass you on the outside like you're standing still. I'm not that fast a rider. 5 more HP won't make the slightest difference.

 

I'll be happy enough to have that goddamned throttle bobble gone and no more surge coming out of fuel saver mode. I just want it to do what I tell it to, smoothly, and the same way every time.

 

I honestly wish I didn't have the Delkevic headers on my bike. I didn't install the system, the previous owner did. They're fine, but they don't line up, like the OP noted. And 80% of the weight reduction (and all the sound) can be had with just about any CF slip on. They don't help performance. They're just... loud. Or can be if you don't put the baffle in.

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Its okay, no harm done. The owner of the site's name is Yaman. He is a really nice and knowledgeable guy, but is not a fan of forums. He and the guys at Dimsport gave me some introductory training on the software/hardware and appointed me as kind of a vfr forum liaison to try to help out with as many questions as possible, before they make it to the shop (Cycle Pro). I can help out with general questions and light diagnosing.

The name racing is kind of misleading, as the main difference between the racing module and the Evo module is ignition mapping, but ignition mapping doesn't do much for peak horsepower (at least on the vfr800 it doesn't). The ignition mapping just adds a few degrees of timing in the 2500-8000 range, which adds a ton of torque at the expense of needing to run higher octane fuel. The racing module is actually more of a drivability modification by it self, but some of the add on features like launch control and traction control etc, are more race oriented.

As far as smoothing out the throttle, that pretty much just comes down to the factory o2 sensors and fuel mapping. It can be sorted out simply by installing o2 eliminators and a PC3. Also the rapid bike evo will do the same, but with standard auto tuning, if you have a +2000 vfr. The ignition advance will not do much for taming the throttle, that's mainly for adding low/midrange torque.

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5 hours ago, CandyRedRC46 said:


As far as smoothing out the throttle, that pretty much just comes down to the factory o2 sensors and fuel mapping. It can be sorted out simply by installing o2 eliminators and a PC3. Also the rapid bike evo will do the same, but with standard auto tuning, if you have a +2000 vfr. The ignition advance will not do much for taming the throttle, that's mainly for adding low/midrange torque.

 

 

Yeah, the o2 sensors are fucking ridiculous on gen 5. All they do is throw you into a mode where, when you're cruising nicely at 55mph the bike starts to slow down. So you gently add a little throttle but it slows a bit more so you gently add more throttle then BAM! Surge like you just twisted the throttle 15 degrees. Fucker. Best bang for the buck  mod ever, trading those stupid things for  50 cent resistors.

 

Whatever. All the quirks worked in my favor. The starter valves were so far out when I got the bike that it barely ran below 3000rpm and the power hit all at once. Clutch actuator was sticking, too. The previous owner probably thought it was as hard to ride as a 2 stroke GP bike from 20 years ago. I'm pretty sure that's why he sold it.  Poor guy would kick himself for letting it go if he knew what a pussycat it is now that I've worked on it a bit.

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I'm the guy that talked Delkevic into producing the high level exhausts for the 3rd gen, I've had one and so have many of the guys on the RC36 FB group, none of us have had this angle issue, they've all sat tight to the bike and line up perfectly with the tail fairing.

 

Either the link pipe is from a bad batch or you're fitting it wrong.

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Thought I'd resurrect this topic, to ask about the PCII and the ignition advance conversation.

 

I now have AB's old '99 bike which came with the OEM headers ceramic coated, and has a (working) PCII installed.

 

I've also connected to it with a modern device (via USB-serial adapter), and the PCII software. Definitely connects up and reads revs, AFRs etc. AND has an ignition table. In talking to a local garage, the bloke reckoned the PCII is cr*p, and to get rid of it. Not super-keen to, if it actually can be used to advance the ignition/get decent fueling happening etc. given that I already have it. (Would most likely lok to use another garage to get the tuning done).

 

So...has anyone had a go at having the PCII configured to tune and gain some ignition advance at an appropriate level/range for an early 5th gen?

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EX-XX:   If you're game and if E85 is handy out there in aussie-land,  you could theoretically crank up the timing on E85 on the dyno and catch considerably more midrange and mid-high horsepower.  Besides that you will want a dyno for ignition tuning to find out how it's doing,  where the power stop is for adding in timing,  and when/if there's any detonation.  

running around on the street will produce mixed results that will have you guessing and at worst maybe damaging your pistons and/or valves.

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There's a garage in Moorebank that has the Dynojet Dyno, and they can tune the PCII to suit your motor via Dynojets own software.

Around AU$275 I think.

 

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On 12/15/2016 at 4:44 PM, MooseMoose said:

 

Yeah, the o2 sensors are () ridiculous on gen 5.... Best bang for the buck  mod ever, trading those stupid things for  50 cent resistors.

 

+1, couldn’t agree more

 

On 2/8/2018 at 9:58 PM, EX-XX said:

Thought I'd resurrect this topic, to ask about the PCII and the ignition advance conversation.

 

I now have AB's old '99 bike which came with the OEM headers ceramic coated, and has a (working) PCII installed.

 

I've also connected to it with a modern device (via USB-serial adapter), and the PCII software. Definitely connects up and reads revs, AFRs etc. AND has an ignition table. In talking to a local garage, the bloke reckoned the PCII is cr*p, and to get rid of it. Not super-keen to, if it actually can be used to advance the ignition/get decent fueling happening etc. given that I already have it. (Would most likely lok to use another garage to get the tuning done).

 

So...has anyone had a go at having the PCII configured to tune and gain some ignition advance at an appropriate level/range for an early 5th gen?

 

I’ve got a Y2K pushing through ceramic coated 99 headers with polished welds and a PCII and I never got the ignition table to run well... I didn’t spend to much time on it because I didn’t have access to a Dyno and I didn’t want to risk engine damage. To be safe you need knock sensors on the engine that pick up detonation before you start hearing it when advancing timing.

 

I used crowd logic and averaged all the corresponding cells of every available table from the company for a 5th gen  PCII then smoothed all the transitions from neighboring cells for my map. Runs really well on my bike, only issue is some subtle surging and adjusting at the flapper valve transition rpms (mine is de-flappered).

 

I also have a RB Race with wide band O2 NIB that I was planning on installing with new performance headers... planning on welding on an  O2 bung this Spring on my current headers. I’ll post up if I get some dyno runs.

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The people in Moorebank sound promising, even if only to just get it dynoed and ensure the fuelling is as spot-on as possible.

 

The ignition timing sounds like it may be a "bridge too far" for my old bike...possible (probably?) not worth the effort.

 

As for E85, not sure I'd know where to get it...can't say I've noticed it in any of the local servos. (That said, I haven't actually looked, either ;) )

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E85? You don't want to go down that path.

If you set the bike up to run on 85% ethanol, it will not run on normal fuel.

I also think the 5G will rot from the inside.

 

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Years ago I foolishly filled up redslut with E85, thinking it was 85 octane...

 

She bucked like a rodeo animal.... :-(

 

Gave her premium ethanol free next to beg her forgiveness :-)

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