Bent rod?

[JZH]

How about an extra-long socket? 

 

 

Good luck!

 

Ciao,

[wera803]

If you do try it again, maybe put a little oil on the o-ring with hopes it will allow it to slide easier on the metal.

[sfdownhill]

Thanks. I tried the extra long socket, but the plug well has too small a diameter - the 11/16 socket that fits the stuck adaptor is too big to go down the hole. I've cleaned the threads, bought a new fresh tube of loctite red, and applied it. Screwed the parts together and am letting them cure for a few days while I'm out of town for work.

 

I'll oil the oring for sure next time and be waaaay more gentle when hitting bottom with the compression test fitting.

[sfdownhill]

I've been out of town all week for work but will get back into the garage tomorrow, hopeful that the now-cured red loctite will do its job and help me get the stuck compression test adapter out of the plug hole. It was interesting to learn that heating up cured loctite [To 500-ish degrees F] causes it to release.

[sfdownhill]

Update - red loctite worked - compression test adapter came out easily. Here are the results of the compression test:
#1 - 175 psi
#2 - 175
#3 - 190
#4 - 200

Having pulled the plugs off the shelf, it turns out #2 is the one with the blackened plug - not significant buildup, but discolored black where the other three plugs look new.  It's sooty w dry dusty back material, not oily.

The previous owner said the mechanic he took it to diagnosed #3 as having a bent rod.

I very carefully measured piston travel distance on each cylinder by inserting a slim rod into the plug hole until it touched the piston, marking the rod at bottom dead center and at TDC then using digital calipers to measure the difference. I got these readings:
#1 46.25mm
#2 46.99mm
#3 47.56mm
#4 47.85mm

Next step - fuel system troubleshooting. Find out why the plug in #2 is fouled.
Question - if the problem is ignition - not getting spark, the plug wouldn't foul, would it?

[JZH]

Doesn't sound like a bent rod!  Clogged fuel injector?

 

Ciao,

[sfdownhill]

Thanks JZH. I'll check the injector and fuel pressure regulator. I'm planning on confirming spark first, just to eliminate ignition - unless guys with more experience [All of y'all] warn me away from spark check.

[CandyRedRC46]

18 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

Update - red loctite worked - compression test adapter came out easily. Here are the results of the compression test:
#1 - 175 psi
#2 - 175
#3 - 190
#4 - 200

Having pulled the plugs off the shelf, it turns out #2 is the one with the blackened plug - not significant buildup, but discolored black where the other three plugs look new.  It's sooty w dry dusty back material, not oily.

The previous owner said the mechanic he took it to diagnosed #3 as having a bent rod.

I very carefully measured piston travel distance on each cylinder by inserting a slim rod into the plug hole until it touched the piston, marking the rod at bottom dead center and at TDC then using digital calipers to measure the difference. I got these readings:
#1 46.25mm
#2 46.99mm
#3 47.56mm
#4 47.85mm

Next step - fuel system troubleshooting. Find out why the plug in #2 is fouled.
Question - if the problem is ignition - not getting spark, the plug wouldn't foul, would it?

 

I don't think you should be checking the difference of TDC and BDC as that will just give you the stroke, and maybe tell you if the crank is bent?

I think you should be comparing all of the BDC lengths and then compare all of the TDC lengths. Then Average the BDC slim rod length and TDC slim rod length for each individual cylinder and then compare each individual cylinder's average length. I would think the largest average TDC/BDC length, if done accurately, could indicate a bent rod, as a bent rod would put the piston slightly lower at TDC and slightly lower at BDC as well, resulting in a larger number for each slim rod length.

[sfdownhill]

Wow CandyredRC46, you are soooo right! I was not using my brain as it was intended - usually I'm OK with  3 dimensional stuff, but your recommendation of comparing the baseline heights of all BDC's to one another, and all TDC's to one another is spot on detective work. This will determine what height the pistons live at and where they start and end their stroke. A bent rod's piston will be lower in its cylinder, both at TDC and BDC. Makes me think of John Cleese when he was with Monty python and exclaimed, "Brilliant!"

 

I'll gather a round of those measurements today. Thank you.

[CandyRedRC46]

Yeah me and my coworker were arguing about it for five minutes lol.

 

[sfdownhill]

I stopped by a few stores [Auto- as well as non-auto stores] to purchase or assemble a precise piston-depth gauge. I was using my fork oil height measuring tool as a template; a slim straight metal tube with a solid collar that can be fixed in place by a threaded setscrew. With a smaller collar than my fork oil tool's that would sit on top of the VFR's valve cover plug opening, the plan was to slide the tube or rod down to the piston at BDC, fix the collar with the setscrew, extract the rod and fixed collar, then use calipers to measure piston depth. Rinse and repeat for TDC. Compare piston depths between cylinders.

 

Toward the end of my research a helpful Oreilly Autoparts fellow heard me describe a fundamental condition of my project that I had failed to pay attention to: with all sparkplugs out, when I turn the crankshaft with a wrench through the timing port, the engine generates significant friction/resistance at various points around the rotation. My helpful fellow held the opinion that the engine should have even resistance/friction throughout the crankshaft's rotation when it's not making compression. His opinion is that a small four-cylinder engine is built so tightly - thin webbing, crankshaft journal spacing, and tolerances in general - that the very noticeable changes in resistance throughout the crankshaft rotation indicate that some large rotating part or parts are bent inside the cases.

 

To attempt to identify where in each revolution the resistance increased, I switched from a ratchet to a rigid wrench and began to turn from the bottom - call it 6 o'clock. For two revolutions, the stiction occurred just before 6 and again just before 12 o'clock and lasted 20-30 degrees of rotation at each location. As I continued to turn the wrench without removing it from the timing crankshaft bolt, the sticky spots migrated in a vague clockwise procession [7ish and 1ish, then 8ish and 2ish, etc.]. I couldn't pin the change down to an exact pattern. Since I did the compression test with the battery and starter, I believe the oil pump has already moved some of the new oil into the lubrication system.

 

Question - does the uneven crankshaft resistance indicate seriously unhappy major rotating/reciprocating components?

 

Thought 1 - if it's NOT definitely done-bended-real-fersher bad, I'll drain oil, remove clutch and stator, and check the crank turning resistance without those two potential drags on the system. Then proceed with the FPR, injector, and other troubleshooting.

 

Thought 2 - if it IS done-bended-real-fersher bad, I'll drain oil and coolant, remove engine, and install the replacement engine I purchased before I began to scratch my head about this "bent rod" engine.

[sfdownhill]

After I finished the previous post, I realized the painfully obvious...valve spring resistance.

[BusyLittleShop]

On 7/2/2016 at 9:45 PM, sfdownhill said:

Hey Lilshop - I just noticed you have an RC45 in your garage. I think we've talked at Seca and other places. Am I correct to recall your name is Larry? I'm Lance and I have an RC45 with a Two Brothers slip-on and a 17" CBR600 front wheel.

 

Also - thanks for the cylinder numbering image  - is that from the RC45 service manual? Are you pretty certain a 2002 VFR800 uses the same cylinder numbering as the RC45?

 

Hiya Lance... Larry here... now that you mention it I'm sure we have talked before and I believe Honda numbers all their V4s in the same fashion... may I record your RC45 VIN in my world wide registry???

[sfdownhill]

Hi Larry - how many miles on your RC45 these days?

 

My VIN is _____________0012 of the US-issued homologation motorcycles. I'll check the paperwork/frame and get the rest of the VIN to you.

[sfdownhill]

Larry - absence makes the head grow softer. My RC45 was VIN JH2RC4507RM000010, so was #10 of the US homologation production run of 50. My friend Hambis Charlambis had #12, but I haven't seen him or that motorcycle for more than 14 years. Do you have San Francisco resident AJ Streak's RC45 in your registry?

 

**On to the task at hand: I reinstalled the plugs, connected the coils and their connectors, put fresh 91 octane in the tank, took the battery off the tender and installed it. waited for a lightning storm to help bring the creature to life, and cranked it over. The engine tried to catch, but wouldn't. Some combination of cylinders was not firing. I then tested spark at plugs, and #1, #3, and #4 have no spark. #2 [the cylinder whose plug had fuel-fouled black sooty deposits] was firing and valiantly attempting to turn the entire engine. The FI warning indicator did not illuminate or flash.

 

I am now studying the ignition schematic in section 19-2 of the manual, and it is not immediately apparent where a broken wire or connector could stop spark from reaching cylinders 1, 3, and 4, but deliver to 2. Visual inspection did not reveal any broken connectors or wires, the engine shutoff relay housing was fine, ECU looks good from the outside [Like so many women].

[BusyLittleShop]

On 7/27/2016 at 11:03 PM, sfdownhill said:

Larry - absence makes the head grow softer. My RC45 was VIN JH2RC4507RM000010, so was #10 of the US homologation production run of 50. My friend Hambis Charlambis had #12, but I haven't seen him or that motorcycle for more than 14 years. Do you have San Francisco resident AJ Streak's RC45 in your registry?

 

 

 

Oh my gosh!!! you have Balls 10 which totaled by Stan Berde on PHC1???

 

I show balls 12 in Pittsburg Pa owner Jeff Englet

 

Yes I have A I's balls 51

 

Mr.RC45 is pushing 60K

 

In this photo is Stan Berde #10 Me #2 and A I #51

[sfdownhill]

No Larry, I now longer have 'balls 10' [Where does the term 'balls' come from?] I sold the RC45 #10 to Stan, then he wrecked it, I didn't know if you had a record of it. it's frame was badly  broken. I couldn't get any of the mechanic, salvage purchaser, or insurance company sell it to me after it was crashed. Sad.

 

 

[BusyLittleShop]

22 hours ago, sfdownhill said:

No Larry, I now longer have 'balls 10' [Where does the term 'balls' come from?] I sold the RC45 #10 to Stan, then he wrecked it, I didn't know if you had a record of it. it's frame was badly  broken. I couldn't get any of the mechanic, salvage purchaser, or insurance company sell it to me after it was crashed. Sad.

 

 

 

It's some of my USAF lingo where Zeros are "balls" so 0000010 is balls 10... OK now the picture is complete thanks for pointing that out... I

not only inspected the wreck in person I have photos... Balls 10 was sold by City Cycle Salvage to someone  on the east coast... he sent the

fame to Spondon UK... they welded up broken head stock weld and added the HRC frame kit parts... technically speaking the frame

came out stronger and straighter than new... 

 

Spondon RC45 HRC Weld On Kit Parts

 

Broken head stock weld...

[sfdownhill]

Larry - thank you so much for the photos - I love all of them. Can you please email me a good quality file of the one with you, Stan and AI? I especially love that one. I'm at hidef@aol.com. You guys look like three kids with their candy. I'm stopping to have lunch w Stan week after next on the way to Seattle on my 2001. 

 

How did you ever get AI to part with his RC45? He and his wife [Monica?] referred to it as a member of their family.

 

Whoever they sold #10 to did with it exactly what I had wanted to. Strange that none of the entities involved would consider selling it at the time. I'd better stop blathering on and taking up inappropriate space on this thread.

[sfdownhill]

On to the 'bent rod'. I apologize for the long silence. I reached a satisfactory solution last Thursday, then spent a way-too-large chunk of today learning how to get a brief video of the VFR into a shape and format to post - it's 1:26am and the video is just now ready to attach. I won't  bore anyone with the tedious details of a close encounter of the Microsoft kind. 

 

I swapped the plugs and coils around among the cylinders with no spark, and the lack of fire stayed with 1,3, and 4. So I moved up into the wiring harness and found a broken wire - the black/white one in the diagram in section 19-2 of the manual. The manual's diagram does not indicate that there is a point in the wiring where a break in a wire would disable 1,3, and 4. I didn't want to get too far into the harness or replace it, so I installed a jumper bypass around the break in the wire. This brought the three miscreant cylinders to life. Actually, I shouldn't disparage the cylinders, as they were standing by and now that they have spark, they run great. See attached video. Note- the video is called 'rightside up' because I held the phone incorrectly when filming.

 

So I let it idle for 45 minutes to make sure everything remained stable, and it did. Temp stable, fan turned on, FI malfunction indicator and all other warning lights remained off. The beast sounds gnarly-snarly with the airbox open and no mufflers!

 

As for the plugs, I replaced the fouled plug and one other with the recommended NGK iridium plugs. All four now have the type of tip electrode that threads on and off, but I thought the OEM Honda plugs had built-in, non-threaded tips, don't they?

 

I also purchased a set of Brisk AOR10LGS plugs but have not installed them. The Brisk units were reported by several VFR owners as producing a noticeable improvement in power delivery. Does anyone have experience with or knowledge of the Brisk plugs?

 

Thanks to everyone for their assistance and support.

VFR rightside up [2] 07 29 16.mp4

[CZshooter]

Wow thats AWESOME!

 

Mechanic led the P.O. astray, thats for sure- -What did you pay for the "salvage" bike on Ebay if you don't mind sharing?  Great deal!

[sfdownhill]

Yes, CZ, this has been a win-win and very satisfying project for me. I purchased the 2002 VFR with a 'bent rod' for $1300.

[VFR4Lee]

Awesome job on the other mechanics part in diagnosing a bent rod.

[BusyLittleShop]

I learned Motorcycle troubleshooting is a form of problem solving...
It is a logical search for the source of a problem so that it can be
solved... it ain't about jumping to conclusions... it pays to work
methodically...

 

I sent the photo to your email... I'm grinning because for 2 years I
was a lonely RC45 owner with no other owner to share common
experiences with... that all changed when I found Uncle Stan and his
neighbor A I... next day we rode to Starbucks for morning coffee and a
guy visiting from the UK jumped out the front door with glee
proclaiming "wow 3 RC45's, what is this? a conspiracy?" he would have
been happy to see a single RC45 let alone three at a glance...

 

I lost track of A I and Uncle Stan... so if you see them please forward their

contact info... I'd love to reestablish our friendship...

[sfdownhill]

Thanks Larry. I'll see Stan a week from Monday and get our contact info to him. Good thoughts on troubleshooting. I've got old-fashioned film-based photos of me on #10 RC45 at Laguna Seca back when I owned her - I'll see if I can dig them up and scan them to send to you.