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Trying To Revive A 1993 Vfr 750, Incomplete... And Flooded!


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Yup ! Left it is. 

Thanks a lot. I will start from the least compressed position and cut spacers so that springs are preloaded about 10 mm. I measured that I have another 10 mm of range to set correct spring preload with the cap adjuster. If I am not able to set sag properly, I will cut new spacers accordingly (which implies I have the bike almost finished with fairings and so on).

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  • 2 weeks later...
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To come back a little bit on the fuel pump.

 

On 3/11/2017 at 8:21 PM, bdouvill said:

Here is the inside:

large.20170311_142209_1024.jpg.ee2ce3066532cc954b6237721d2b2670.jpg

large.20170311_142216_1024.jpg.f1a708863330fdffeaadd0b5a7571d09.jpg

 

On 3/12/2017 at 1:38 PM, JZH said:

You probably need a new pump, but the points can be replaced with an optical trigger made for a KTM 950, I think it is.  A dutch guy on ADVrider sells them.

 

Ciao,

 

I contacted the guy on ADV Rider forum who is very nice. Speaking about my pump, he told me to check that the pump rod is still movable which is not (like not at all) so the pump is dead for sure. I might go for a chinese replacement that are like 30€ on ebay.co.uk (75€ for the same shit on ebay.fr...). I'd like to replace the original mechanical trigger with the optical trigger. Here is what he told me (apart the fact that my pump was dead):

 

Looks similar, not exactly the same. I cannot guarantee it will work, but it is likely to work.
(my kit has been used for several Hondas, including CBR600, carb version)

 

Biggest issue with the Honda's is that sometimes (like RD07a, Afrika-twin) they have a 'thyristor' fuelpump 'relais' in front of the pump (switching the 12V to the pump). It works when this is a regular fuelpump relais, but there are problems when this is a 'thyristor'version that gets its signal froim the ignition. There are a few solutions to this.. but all with their (dis)advantages.

 

Do you know if the original fuel pump relay is a basic one or a what he calls a 'thyristor' based one?

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The fuel pump relay is called the "fuel cut" relay, and no, it is not a typical automotive relay.  It is located next to the ECU on the LHS of the rear subframe; it is black with a white 3P connector.  The good news is that it is potted and fully sealed, so if the connector contacts are okay, it should still work (assuming it worked before the bike got flooded!)  This: 36100-MN4-008.  (It is the same one used on the Africa Twin...)

 

I've never had one fail, or even heard of one failing, btw.

 

Ciao,

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Small update.

 

I was finally able to put the fork back together. I received the 4 shims that were missing. I have the exact same shim stacks as per the previous pictures + 0.85 linear Racetech springs + 5W fork oil (set as per the manual: 175 mm more or less from the top of the fork).

 

Here is the difference between standard springs and Racetech ones, much shorter. I add to fabricate some spacers with 32mm PVC tube, around 80mm long to have approximately 10-12mm of spring preload.

 

large.20170527_172457_1024.jpg.733dbac36d0dc56455b4d9739cc5123b.jpg

 

 

large.20170527_172503_1024.jpg.59f4c8306f5c38387473e72bf169b3e6.jpg

 

Then here is how I MacGyved the fork leg to work alone 😉

 

large.20170528_163839_1024.jpg.7d08465c4bd39f84920518232893f025.jpg

 

Small tip given by my good friend Thierry to be able to push the rod back and force to remove air:

 

large.20170528_163856_1024.jpg.32fb5059c3c61025ea42630d52eb2749.jpg

 

Legs are ready to rejoin the frame. I ordered a spare fuel pump, it's on its way too.

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  • 3 months later...

Some news after months of radio silence (I keep following the VFRD forum anyway).

 

I was able to start it and make it run. It's far from being perfect but that's a pretty decent starting point considering where it was almost 2 years ago now 😉

 

 

It's not working 100% smooth, don't you think? I remounted the coils with new spark plug wires. Spark plugs are brand new. I noticed one coil has it's connection rusted so this is my first suspect for the misfire I believe the bike is suffering. Don't hesitate to comment guys!

 

Also, I tried to borrow a 90 degree screwdriver from my Honda dealer but they refused to rent it to me (which I can understand). So I did my best to achieve a pretty decent carb sync with this:

 

large.20170901_175232_1024.jpg.3b36e4e820f3706a597770929ca8e99e.jpg

 

which resulted in light skin burns and scratches

 

large.20170830_214939_1024.jpg.af5e231e01f568b005af5151dcbb5f83.jpg

 

large.20170830_214948_1024.jpg.e413c37759b330a0bfc738f22ead886f.jpg

 

I know, at some point in time, I'll buy the one proposed by Carbtune... but I had to try like this.

 

I also had the exhaust pipe sandblasted then I painted it later in high heat resistant black (650 degrees C).

 

large.20170609_123025_1024.jpg.3f2ce9fe9a95c0d7492e50fee23615e0.jpg

 

There's only one small hole where the exhaust silencer connects... I'll keep it like this for now.

 

There's still plenty of stuff to do. Gears are super harsh to engage (except 1st). I believe that flushing the clutch command with new liquid should help. Also, I sourced VTR 1000 front calipers and master cylinders but I can't find fork legs or bent fork at a decent price...

 

Anyway, I'm happy because it looks more and more like a motorcycle.

 

large.20170924_162112_1024.jpg.e47221db5b60e09154b8fcf77efdf8c0.jpg

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Which coil is "merde"?  I still have the ones from redslut, so u pay postage, u get for it for free.

Assuming that 94-97 coils are the same as 90-93.....

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2 hours ago, Dutchy said:

Which coil is "merde"?  I still have the ones from redslut, so u pay postage, u get for it for free.

Assuming that 94-97 coils are the same as 90-93.....

 

I checked and 30500-ML7-013 has been mounted on VFRs from 1988 to 1997 so no compatibility issues. I PM you later so we can arrange that ;-)

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@Dutchy any of them would allow me to remove the damaged one. The coil is damaged for sure but I hope the spark plugs are ok (and the wires since I put some new ones).

But since I am not 100% sure this is the only problem that I have, I would say all of them would allow me to test various possibilities and in best case, to have 3 spares ;-)

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  • 5 weeks later...

Some news - and a great a public thanks to @Dutchy Redslut just contributed to keep my bike coming back to life :cheerleader:

1st try:

I removed by "broken" coil and replaced it with one from Redslut. Here is what I mean with "broken":

 

large.20171021_164856_1024.jpg.53f935de8f1a0832b67625ea2b531356.jpg

 

I broke the glue when I checked the coil in the first place so no chance to get it back to work. I put one a new wire that was not really attached to this coil so no good contact. I believed it was the reason for the misfires (all the "pop" sounds you can hear in the video above).

 

With the coil from Redslut, it was the same story, lots of "pop" noises so no improvements.

 

Then I realized I attached new wires on all 4 coils the bad way. Let me explain:

 

large.20171021_165002_1024.jpg.5ccd7537eb82aaacf518cae2a21e719e.jpg

 

The original wire comes with a grommet which I believe allows the wire to resist some mechanical traction. I did not mount it back on the new wires which probably did not help to have good contact. So I put back the 3 Honda wires that were more or less undamaged and put on the 4th grommet on one new wire. Then went for a 2nd try. Same story, no improvement.

 

I had some doubts regarding one the 4 coils because the old Honda wires don't necessarily connect well to the coils once you disconnected them. So I did the 3rd try like this:

 

large.20171023_181404_1024.jpg.db59417629280fa885512221b89d9564.jpg 

 

I replaced the coil I suspected (the one going to cyl#4) with one of the two coils from the 4th gen rear coil pack (from Redslut). This time, I saw (or rather heard) a real improvement - but still not 100% perfect. 

 

So I googled "VFR 750 misfire" just to confirm that I should inspect all electrical contacts. So I did. I removed all coils (again) and checked the following:

- primary and secondary resistance of all 4 coils 

- resistance of all 4 spark plug caps

I then remounted everything with great care.

Then I used electrical contact cleaner on all connectors: the coils ones but also on the wiring loom. I was highly needed since the wiring loom connectors were really dirty and you can't properly clean them since they have a platic cap (I assume to protect them from water). I also cleaned the spark connector of the spark plug caps. They were dirty as well.

 

Anyway, I went for a 4th try today and ... it worked great!!!!! Really smooth idle when cold (ok, it's like 20°C in the garage currently which is underground) and I heard only 3 "pops" in let's say 2 minutes so I believe I can go on :wink: I will try to confirm this week-end with a longer run in the garage to see how it works when hot.

 

Now, I need to rebuild the fuel petcock since it is slightly leaking in "Off" position which is bothering me. At the same time, I will change the fuel line from the petcock to the fuel filter because mine has cracks (leaks here as well). Hopefully, it is still avalaible at Honda. At the same time, I will order the water pump gasket and o-ring (it is slightly leaking as well, I believe it is the gasket). Then I will buy the 90° screwdriver from Carbtune and do a perfect carb sync.

 

I believe that if it still misfires for any reason, I'll use again Redslut rear coil pack to diagnose the faulty coils assembly and fix it.

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And I tested it outside today. It works way better but not 100% ok. 

 

 

I finally had the opportunity to ride it - after 2 years!!!

 

First the good things:

- Misfires are not completely gone, but it's ok for now. It run rather smoothly in neutral. I have to sync it properly and adjust the throttle cable better and see how it goes then. 

- I bleeded the clutch system this week and I can switch gears. Runs fine from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 1st. I can change the clutch line later, it's ok for now.

 

The bad things:

- There are some remaining misfires...

- Temp gauge is apparently not working.

 

I'll adjust all that I have on my list and test again. To be continued...

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  • 5 months later...

Hey,

 

I did not quit yet, just not so much time (and not unlimited $$$) to work as I would like.

 

After I got stucked with misfires, I decided to look deeper around the wiring harness. I already knew the starter relay connector was fried but the behaviour of the engine led me to suspect something around the connection between the Ignition Unit (the ECU) and the coils. So I took it and dismantled it:

 

large.20171126_142840_1024.jpg.93b7513cba952e278796534f2f263490.jpg

 

large.20171126_142856_1024.jpg.21960085488d8e33089b21239a194bf3.jpg

 

And look what I found:

 

large.20171229_132749_1024.jpg.07f266dc90981fa2bf69afb80cf42903.jpg

 

Not only the common (-?) wire to all 4 coils and one of the 4 going to the coils are exposed (the 2 arrows on the right) but more importantly, the wires coming from the crankshaft position sensor are in a really bad shape. Apparently, it has been cut (don't ask me how) and resoldered but damn it, who did that???

 

The more I think about it, the more I think ok, the bike might have been working well before it was flooded, but definitely not according to my standards...

 

Found other ugly stuffs, like this:

 

large.20180316_214157_1024.jpg.4cf8860b55e7a0a30930f0fefbc238aa.jpg

 

So Santa came (ok this was 3 months ago):

 

large.20180327_104154_1024.jpg.8807b0b8cbb941a558cd0426595febd9.jpg

 

and I worked hard on it.

 

More pictures to come quickly.

 

----- SPOILER ALERT -----

 

It works wayyyy better 😉

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Wow, some butcher had its dirty hands on that,

good to see that a methodical surgeon corrected it :beer:

 

 

 

31health_chen-tmagArticle.jpg

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So first, I need to say that I would never have done so much things without all the information freely available on Cycle Terminal web site. This is where I sourced new 16-pin ECU connector (where only 12 are used actually). So I build new connection to the crankshaft position sensor (3 wires) and the wiring to all 4 coils (5 wires, "ground" is common and goes up to the right handlebar, one of the 4 coils wire also supply signal to the fuel cut relay).

 

large.20180318_155447_1024.jpg.796efb5ec464f10ac77addb1a6126fba.jpg

 

large.20180407_114007_1024.jpg.7f73eef716bdfe6ced1fd5b90583b747.jpg

 

Speaking about the fuel cut relay, I made this little change so I can bypass it with a switch when I am working on the bike (I need to test this works as expected today):

 

large.20180407_114106_1024.jpg.0386d50a16b6c5463b4d16288a58bf2c.jpg

 

I also rebuild all 4 wires going to the starter relay that had seen better days 😉

 

large.20180407_113953_1024.jpg.f6cf4a1e41e09260b38380641e6868df.jpg

 

I took the opportunity to replace the regulator with a Shindengen one coming from a 2012 1400 ZZR with less than 30 000 miles. Got it fro, Ebay for 50€. I also got the dedicated regulator wiring from Triumph (Ref is T2500676) that I modified. It comes with 2 +12V and 2 grounds. I removed of the +12V wires, rerouted the 2nd one to the Starter relay. Split the 2 grounds. Connected one to the rest of the wiring harness (directly plugged to the original terminal of the original regulator) and routed the 2nd one directly to the battery.

 

large.20180407_114139_1024.jpg.0f91965fcd35bc337afd2545427931be.jpg

 

Here we can see the regulator on the bike:

 

large.20180317_155028_1024.jpg.d6b122f13740c38361e6b3b3c4eeadf9.jpg

 

This fits under the tail even if it touches the plastic. Time will tell...

 

large.20180317_155349_1024.jpg.bceec39cec840380dff41a299ca1983d.jpg

 

This is how I tested mostly, wiring harness hanging here and there 😉

 

large.20180317_160702_1024.jpg.8badc2a1c5118c3a71e8fd39c5e08ae5.jpg

 

Then I lost a lot of time with this. I got the colored wiring harness printed in A3 format (29.7 mm x 42 mm) and it is noted to be from a 1993 VFR 750 (sol just like mine). Regarding the coils connection, the way the harness is built, you cannot mess up the right part but on the left side, it's symetric so I had to refer to the diagram I had. In the end, I found (after a long time scratching my head) that the cylinders numbering on this diagram is the same compared to the service manual (where #1 is rear left) but the colors are reversed compared to my bike. Blue/Black goes to Front left cylinder and Yellow white to the rear left!!! Diagram told me the exact opposite. The worst is that the bike ran pretty decently on only the 2 right cylinders, that is crazy. No back fires in the carbs. 

 

After I found this, things worked much better and at least, gone are the misfire days. Now, I have to test it again. Unfortunately, I found the real cause of the leak on the right side. I thought it was the waterpump but in fact, it was the clutch slave cylinder. So I have no clutch at the moment, seals are on their way. 

 

To be continued.

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Good progress today. I finally found why the bike was running on 3 cylinders. Left front exhaust was always cold when the right one gets hot in less than a minute. Coil is delivering connected to an extra spark plug. Then I decided to flush the coolant and move the radiator to access the spark plug. I put 4 new spak plugs more than one year ago. I decided that the best would be to switch the "potential" failing one to one of the rear cylinders which are way more accessible. In the end, it turned out that the spark plug was faulty, so I used one of the original one and the bike is running now on all 4 cylinders. Revs way better. 

 

I tried to film it in the garage but instead I found out later that I only took pictures... At least, I confirmed that burning my hand was worth it because the sync is pretty good.

 

large.20180408_114130_1024.jpg.60c97d82dfc5c0ee083cd0dbcd874f5b.jpg

 

New potential issue is that is smoking a lot, like it's burning water 😞

 

I need to run it longer to see if the coolant level is dropping or not. The other possibility is water trapped inside the exhaust pipe or the exhaust can. I noticed a little spot of water leaking out of the exhaust can where it connects to the pipe which is strange. Sounds like water is getting out of the silencer material (rockwool?). I should be able to make it dry outside since spring is coming back. 

 

I ran it quickly without the silencer and it did not seem to smoke. Plus I really liked the sound 😉

To be confirmed probably next week-end.

 

By the way, I found a name for her. I can not stop thinking of a hooker because I got it from the very bottom and try desperately to put it back on the streets (sounds like a pimp doesn't it?). My wife suggested the role of Julia Roberts in Pretty woman. So we now refer to her as "Vivian".

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On 11/16/2015 at 12:02 AM, bdouvill said:

Understood, and thanks for the tip. In which direction should I rotate the crankshaft when I'm facing right side of the motor? Clockwise or counterclockwise?

Good to see you hard at work, Benoit.  Here's the rule-of-thumb on Honda V4 engines: if the motorcycle has a chain drive the engine crankshaft rotates the same direction as the tires roll (when you're riding), if the motorcycle has a shaft drive (like the Magna and Sabre models) the engine crankshaft rotates in the opposite direction of the tires.

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Like the name, Vivian.

Just as long as she doesn't behave like the one in "the Young Ones"

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I made other tests today and the result is not good news:

1/ When running the engine without the silencer, after one minutes, white smoke is going out of the exhaust pipe. It's clearly water since it's condensing on the exit.

2/ I ran the engine without exhaust pipe at all. This is loud like crazy... I definitely does not recommend that. But at least I found something interesting. White smoke is clearly getting out of front cylinder bank and not the back one. I am like 90% sure of that because it's easier to see what is getting out of the front 😉 At the back, there was the first part of the exhaust that is connected to the rear cylinder head. I did not notice white smoke there. 

 

So that means that either:

  • I mounted the cylinder head gasket wrongly on the front cylinders
  • or there's something wrong either with the gasket, of the engine itself...

Note that yesterday, I was browsing my old pictures and my wife spotted something interesting that I never saw before on the picture:

large.20160902_162513_1024.jpg.21adec64dd5bfba74ef3a88735290c02.jpg

She noticed immediately that the 2 references were not the same. I googled a little and found that:

  • Grey one is Honda ref for 1990-1993 (but this sounds like a CMS non-OEM version)
  • Black one is Honda ref for 1994-1997.
  • 4th gen now supersedes 3rd gen ref this is why I got the 4th gen (the black one) when I ordered from another website (the 3rd gen one comes from CMS obviously).

I know that the grey one is mounted on the front cylinder banks, so the side that probably has a problem.

 

Does anyone has another idea? If not, then as soon as I can, I have to remove (again) the front cylinder head... According to Haynes manual I can do that on both sides with the engine in the frame (at least I don't have to remove it from the frame). 

 

Can I suspect the gasket to have a problem? If the problem does not come from the gasket itself, what should I be looking for? I can I detect a cracked cylinder walls for ex? Should I go for a spare engine? 

 

I think I will remove the front cylinder head then advise. 

 

To be continued. 

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  • 1 month later...

1 month (more or less) later. I removed the front cylinder head and here is what I found:

 

20180430_083345_1024.jpg?raw=1

 

20180430_083406_1024.jpg?raw=1

 

Clearly - as I suspected - there is coolant sucked inside the piston on cylinder #4. 

 

Here is the gasket:

 

20180503_085537_1024.jpg?raw=1

 

Clearly something went wrong with the gasket. The upper layer has been damaged and I have no f... clue why it had! Either I did something wrong when I mounted it but I followed strictly the service and Haynes manual instructions. I had the cylinder head inspected by my friend who has 15 years of experience in car mechanics and it seems pretty flat. 

 

So I ordered a genuine part from Honda, the 4th gen ref which is the only available now.

 

Gaskets side by side:

 

20180526_161836_1024.jpg?raw=1

 

Closer look at the old one:

 

20180526_161844_1024.jpg?raw=1

 

20180526_161851_1024.jpg?raw=1

 

BTW getting the cylinder head out when the engine in the frame is way less comfortable than when the engine was on my balcony 😉 especially since the 2 mounting points on the frame are applying some pressure on the head that is preventing it from moving 100% freely. Will probably bother me again when I put it back... Will let you know. Will happen next week if I cannot do it this week-end.

 

Any comment/feedback is welcome.

 

To be continued.

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Some news.

 

I mounted the 4th gen cylinder head gasket. Next time I do that, I'll remove the engine because that was really painful. Once engine was closed again with camshaft back, it took only 2 hours to have it ready to crack (cooling system, carbs, ignition coils, gas with a remote reservoir).

 

Started almost immediatly with the battery fully charged. And after less than 2 minutes, white smoke out of the exhaust. Was really really disappointed so I left the garage and went back home to watch Moto GP FP2... Did not really know what I did wrong. Started looking on the internet for spare engine.

 

The very next day, I went into my neighbour - the 15 years of experience in car mechanics guy, Thierry. I explained him what happened, he asked if I was sure it was really smoking coolant, if I tasted it (really???). Told me coolant has a sweet taste (so dogs lick it and die). In the end, we arranged to go to the garage yesterday afternoon and we let it run. Here are his views:

- smoke is not coolant (he tasted it...), smells like a mix of oil and gas.

- no issue with coolant, we let it run until the fan started 4 times, no issue with that, temp gauge is working well.

- it smokes a lot at the beginning, the more you rev it, the more it smoked, then the smoke disminished. 

- all in all, the engine runs well and smooth. Idle is a little nit high (around 1600rpm). He revved it until 9k+ rpm (when hot).

- I knew the carb idle setting was too rich, I put it back from -2.5 turns to -2.0 turns.

 

He thinks the most obvious reason is that it did not run for a while so some seals might have dried and the best I can do is to run it. The most probable root cause  is that valve stem seals are worn out. I did not change them when the cylinder heads were out of the engine, what a shame. 

 

So here are my updated plans. Will try to have the rest fitted, like lights and mirrors to this is street legal, and get an insurance. Will monitor carefully oil level and probably go from 10W40 to 15W50 to see if that has an impact on oil consumption. 

 

Will probably plan engine removal (again) in the near future and change the valve stem seals together with 2 new cylinder head gaskets (again...). I browsed quickly the internet yesterday for that. CMS has each seal priced at 8.50€ ex VAT which is insane. Found Viton kits on Ebay for around 45€ approximately. I know that 2 cylinder head gasket means an additional 120€ to CMS or another provider.

 

I hope I can put some pictures soon of Vivian like ready to go.

Keep you posted.

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Ici les points de Pays Bas pour la France....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DOUZE POINTS!!!

:wheel:

:wheel::wheel:

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Ici les points de Pays Bas pour la France....
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
DOUZE POINTS!!!
:wheel:
:wheel::wheel:
Thank you Dutchy

Envoyé de mon SM-A510F en utilisant Tapatalk

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So I spent some time in the garage this week-end again. There is still like a lot of work before I can run it safely on the streets.

 

I mounted the tail - still some bolts missing and one locking tab is broken. Need to start looking for good tutorials for fairing repair.

I put in place to see what it's like with the only front fairing that I have...

20180610_131235_1024.jpg.70264a88dbdca234334ad03adbff6ed9.jpg

 

The previous owner gave me the windscreen. I found the 2 parts of the top fairing for 35€ on the internet. They look really bad, lots of locking tab broken (at least half of them), good side is that they came with the real color from the motorcycle 😉

 

I need to find a decent fairing bolt kit from Ebay, there are plenty but I am not sure which one are ok... Any advice?

 

The other good news is that I rode Vivian!!!!! Not on open road since I have no insurance yet but look at the dashboard:

 

20180610_131243_1024.jpg.c6a2480a3f3cfc72a8d513e1606b600d.jpg

 

I rode it for 1.1km. Seems like it pulls harder than my Bandit 400 - I can wait to really taste that engine 🙂

 

Still plenty of work to ride it on open roads, at least:

- get all the front fairing properly secured

- flush the brakes

- understand the route for the reserve cables (I had no service manual with me in the garage)

 

TBC.

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Back home, I browsed the service manual and cannot find how to route the reserve cables. Anyone who could share a pic or the reference to the manual page?

Thanks in advance. :fing02:

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